Ben Reilly: The Scarlet Spider #25. SPOILER WARNING.

[boots]

I'd argue there's few people out there currently buying monthly issues of Marvel comics that were around during the 90s Clone Saga to care that Ben was brought back different. For readers of the Clone Saga and were fans of the character while they may be miffed I think would be have been seen as a good thing had they gotten a series were he was redeemed. Think of how Bucky, Jason Todd and even Kaine are far more popular now than they were when they were killed.

thats the question...do you market towards fans of 90s nostalgia or try to create a new audience? for a new audience...was the depiction of ben in clone conspiracy enough to hook them into the character?

my answer would be no. clone conspiracy wasn't the winter soldier, unforts.

Also I'd say that the Amazing Spider-Man tie-in issue to the Clone Conspiracy did a fair job via flash backs to his continued torture of how he mentally fell.

i still think the problem was that it made sense logically, but it wasn't done in a way that made us really empathise. i've seen it done and done better elsewhere.

the vast distance between ben at point a and ben at point b just wasn't bridged as strongly as it should have been.

You're right that we should have seen more of that in the actual Scarlet Spider book but I'm not sure PAD was really interested in referencing the Clone Conspiracy or indeed the 90s Clone Saga, it came across like he did the bare minimum of that because he had to. I just feel he wanted to do a book about an insane and morally challenged Spider-Man in wacky situations, the fact that he was supposed to be Ben Reilly felt incidental.

i get that they just wanted to hit the ground running and go forth with a clean(ish) slate.

but i think they underestimated how important or interesting that backstory could have been.

I get what PAD was trying to do with this but which undermines any real attempt at Ben trying to redeem himself.

yeah, a redemption story doesn't need to end in success

[Kurolegacy]

People like me are angry because we waited 20 years for Ben Reilly to come back, enduring one fake tease after another of his return. Then, we finally get him back, but Marvel craps all over his character. THEN, Marvel sets up what appears to be a redemption arc for him, just to crap all over his character AGAIN. It's gotten way past old.

What especially bothers me with this issue when it comes to that is that they could have left it off with it being ambiguous as to what’s going on after him coming back especially when he states that he doesn’t feel any different. They then go the extra mile a few pages later by having him assault Kaine for literally no reason and then threaten to kill him. What especially pisses me off about that is that it ruins the heart to heart that we had gotten a couple issues ago where Kaine admits that he’s rooting for Ben to succeed. This means that PAD wrote a scene that he was then planning to render moot 2 issues later. If Marvel’s plan here was to make me want to check out what happens with Ben next, it backfired big time. At this point, I’m more excited for the return of Superior Spider-Man than whatever they’ve got planned for Ben and it’s no secret around here how I felt about Superior.

[classicgmer]

What especially bothers me with this issue when it comes to that is that they could have left it off with it being ambiguous as to what’s going on after him coming back especially when he states that he doesn’t feel any different. They then go the extra mile a few pages later by having him assault Kaine for literally no reason and then threaten to kill him. What especially pisses me off about that is that it ruins the heart to heart that we had gotten a couple issues ago where Kaine admits that he’s rooting for Ben to succeed. This means that PAD wrote a scene that he was then planning to render moot 2 issues later. If Marvel’s plan here was to make me want to check out what happens with Ben next, it backfired big time. At this point, I’m more excited for the return of Superior Spider-Man than whatever they’ve got planned for Ben and it’s no secret around here how I felt about Superior.

The only Scarlet Spider i'm interested in following from here on out is Kaine. If Ben is killed during Spidergeddon or shuffled off into limbo for the next five years that'll work just fine for me becaus there's nothing remotely interesting about the route they appear to be continuing on with Ben.

[Scarlet Spider-Man]

Accurate review:

https://www.spidermancrawlspace.com/...der-25-review/

[Scarlet Spider-Man]

PAD implied on Twitter that the ending was an editorial mandate:

https://twitter.com/PeterDavid_PAD/s...349084672?s=19

And it looks like he doesn't really want to talk about it, either:

https://twitter.com/PeterDavid_PAD/s...301966848?s=19

When is Marvel editorial going to learn to stop stepping in and screwing up stories/characters? Editorial interference has led to the worst stories in Spider-Man history: OMD, Sins Past, Clone Saga, etc. I'm really sick of it. There's a reason they're editors and not writers.

[Miles To Go]

PAD implied on Twitter that the ending was an editorial mandate:

https://twitter.com/PeterDavid_PAD/s...349084672?s=19

And it looks like he doesn't really want to talk about it, either:

https://twitter.com/PeterDavid_PAD/s...301966848?s=19.

Thanks for notifying us. I'm less mad at PAD now. Poor guy always gets screwed over by the Spider-Office. I'm always surprised he puts up with it.

[HypnoHustler]

Goddamn Marvel.... Slott wrote Clone Conspiracy. Slott is co-writing Spidergeddon. Not hard to put 2 and 2 together here.

[Orbus]

thats the question...do you market towards fans of 90s nostalgia or try to create a new audience? for a new audience...was the depiction of ben in clone conspiracy enough to hook them into the character?

my answer would be no. clone conspiracy wasn't the winter soldier, Unforts

Of that you'll get little argument but I would say the set up for a Ben series at the end of the Clone Conspiracy was on par with what Kaine had at the end of Spider Island and while Yost's Scarlet Spider series had a lasted for about the same as PAD's it was well liked by those that read it and remains fondly thought of still. The same can't be said for Ben Reilly: Scarlet Spider.

As for leftover fans from the 90s well I remember that Ben was a popular choice for fan theories of who the mystery Green Goblin was who worked for Norman post Clone Saga and there's been no shortage of fan fiction that has brought Ben back as a villain over the years usually brainwashed or emotionally scarred and overcoming that to become a hero again.

While there was a lot of backlash for revealing the new Jackal was Ben I'd say that was largely the Internet hive mind that thinks everything is the worst thing ever. It was more or less in line with how many fans envisioned Ben would return, it's just the series that followed was not how fans expected the resurrected character to further be developed.

i still think the problem was that it made sense logically, but it wasn't done in a way that made us really empathise. i've seen it done and done better elsewhere.

the vast distance between ben at point a and ben at point b just wasn't bridged as strongly as it should have been.

I think the main difference between how Ben was brought back vs Bucky and Jason Todd was they came back as part of long running story arcs, Ben was brought back as part of an event which had a finite space and was juggling multiple characters abs narratives like Otto's return, the Carrion virus pressing across the multiverse bringing in Kaine and Spider Gwen, Peter's reunion with several dead characters, Rhino, Lizard and Prowler subplots etc.

All things considered I think Clone Conspiracy did a decent-ish job at depicted Ben's descent into madness due to his torture. It didn't go into any real depth with it but that's really what PAD should have done.

i get that they just wanted to hit the ground running and go forth with a clean(ish) slate.

but i think they underestimated how important or interesting that backstory could have been.

Yeah but I don't think PAD was interested in mining any of Ben's mythology either from the 90s or from the Clone Conspiracy. Like I said he seemed to just want to write a crazy version of Spider-Man which is fine in itself but I'm not sure he should have accepted a Ben Reilly book launched off the back of the Clone Conspiracy if he had little interest in using elements of Ben Reilly or the Clone Conspiracy.

yeah, a redemption story doesn't need to end in success

No it doesn't and a common theme of characters who go on quests for redemption is that whatever crime they are to trying to atone for they never feel they 100 % will but PAD decided to go in a different route with a literal karmic twist in which he physically is punished or rewarded based on the moral choices he made. It almost seems that throughout the series Ben did good to prevent his face getting scarred and not a sincere effort to change.

It was only towards the end that Ben seemed sincere about his quest for redemption which makes the ending sadder although it's not a huge deal as others have said what happened here was out of Ben's control and the window is left open for it to be reversed. Unlikely but the possibility is there.

PAD implied on Twitter that the ending was an editorial mandate:

https://twitter.com/PeterDavid_PAD/s...349084672?s=19

If true that sucks but I would say that it couldn't have happened if not for PAD making the book about which cosmic entity eats to mess around with Ben's soul as opposed to a traditional redemption arc based on Ben's own sincere attempts to atone.

Of course it's possible if PAD had done that then then Marvel's mandate would have made Ben legit turn evil so maybe it's for the best. That being said I can't help but think if PAD had taken a different, more traditional approach to Ben's journey the book would have done better and Marvel would not have ordered this.

Goddamn Marvel.... Slott wrote Clone Conspiracy. Slott is co-writing Spidergeddon. Not hard to put 2 and 2 together here.

You're trying to imply this was Slott's decision, right? I wouldn't be surprised if the decision has something to do with Spider-Geddon but as I've said that had the Scarlet Spider book been better received they wouldn't have done this and Ben would have a different role in the event.

The idea that Slott has something against Ben doesn't jive with how he wanted to bring the character back in Spider Island. Had Marvel allowed that it would have been Ben being a hero in Peter's camouflage suit not Kaine.

[Scarlet-Spider]

PAD implied on Twitter that the ending was an editorial mandate:

https://twitter.com/PeterDavid_PAD/s...349084672?s=19

And it looks like he doesn't really want to talk about it, either:

https://twitter.com/PeterDavid_PAD/s...301966848?s=19

When is Marvel editorial going to learn to stop stepping in and screwing up stories/characters? Editorial interference has led to the worst stories in Spider-Man history: OMD, Sins Past, Clone Saga, etc. I'm really sick of it. There's a reason they're editors and not writers.

That puts things in a new perspective. So while writing this series Peter David always had to keep in mind that he has to make Ben evil again after the series is over? Then they would have been better off calling this series Ben Reilly: The Jackal instead of Ben Reilly: Scarlet-Spider and showing him do Jackal stuff but i guess Scarlet Spider is a more sellable title than The Jackal. This also explains why they kept Kaine around as Scarlet-Spider because they knew Ben would go back to being evil/the Jackal again which means someone at Marvel had a story planned with evil Ben which i am pretty sure is Dan Slott and Spider-Geddon. Dan Slott brought Ben back and i think he might want to put him back into the box too aka back into his grave.

[Kurolegacy]

PAD implied on Twitter that the ending was an editorial mandate:

https://twitter.com/PeterDavid_PAD/s...349084672?s=19

And it looks like he doesn't really want to talk about it, either:

https://twitter.com/PeterDavid_PAD/s...301966848?s=19

When is Marvel editorial going to learn to stop stepping in and screwing up stories/characters? Editorial interference has led to the worst stories in Spider-Man history: OMD, Sins Past, Clone Saga, etc. I'm really sick of it. There's a reason they're editors and not writers.

On the positive side, it was editorial mandated rather than PAD,s choice. On the other hand, last time we had an editorial mandated direction for a Spider character, we ended up with mustache twirling Queenpin Black Cat for 4 years. Why does editorial think we want to read this kind of junk?

[Orbus]

To be fair we don't really know if it was due to editorial interference. PAD's words are vague and could be interpreted that way but also easily interpreted that it was his own choice to put the character back in the box for his last appearance as many writers do. In this case Ben started off this series as a crazy guy and at odds with Kaine and that's how it has ended.

Either way I highly doubt that this was the intention all along. It's clear that PAD switch gears from his original intentions hence why he healed Ben's scars, dropped the Angel/devil in Ben's mind and ditched that very unpopular costume (personally I didn't think it was bad it was more Bagely showing a creepy smile through the mask that turned me off) and a greater emphasis on his redemption. That being said PAD still portrayed him as a jerk most of the run even post getting his faced fixed.

Regardless it does make me slightly curious about Ben's role in Spider-Geddon. As others have said this could be to set him up in an antagonist role, like a situation were Ben wants to kill an enemy whereas Miles and then other spiders won't do that. alternatively it could be the opportunity for Ben to prove he isn't evil and rise above this ending. Unlikely though.

[Scarlet-Spider]

like a situation were Ben wants to kill an enemy whereas Miles and then other spiders won't do that.

Problem is we already have 2 active Spider people perfectly fullfilling that exact role with Kaine and Doc Ock. We have 2 "morally good" male Spider people with Peter and Miles and 3 morally grey anti-hero/villain Spiders with Ock, Kaine and Ben. There is no way all 3 oft them make it alive out of Spider-Geddon and since Ock is getting a new series he is save so Kaine and Ben fans should be very worried.

[theoneandonly]

man it would be a very ironic twist if Kaine died this time saving Ben as opposed to the last time where a Ben sacrificed himself to destroy the cloning tech of the inheritors.

[Huntsman Spider]

man it would be a very ironic twist if Kaine died this time saving Ben as opposed to the last time where a Ben sacrificed himself to destroy the cloning tech of the inheritors.

And like with many things concerning Ben, it turned out to be for nothing, spoilers:

as Otto recreated that same technology to put himself outside the bonds of death, and the Inheritors hijacked it to bring themselves back into the "Prime" Marvel Universe and restart the killing spree/feeding frenzy.

end of spoilers

[Spiderfang]

Can we just finger snap the damn Inheritors out of existence already? I am so sick of Morlun and wannabe vampire family.