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  1. #466
    oh, my beloved Tania ... Indigo Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    I don't suppose a stroll through the Siege Perilous is an option?
    Or this. [Required character limit]

  2. #467
    oh, my beloved Tania ... Indigo Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anodyne View Post
    I played Madelyne in a Traitor Game in which she reconciled the different aspects of her personality as embodied by Anodyne and the Goblin Queen. Unfortunately I didn't save the thread after the CBR reboot.
    And a fabulous, fantastic job you did, too!

  3. #468
    Mighty Member Thirteen's Avatar
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    Peri-Inferno Genosha Madelyne Pryor will always be my favorite badass anti-hero Maddie.


  4. #469
    Fantastic Member Anodyne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    cyclops should be skinned alive for what he did to maddie. I just read the old Claremont stories of discovering he left her for Jean.. I felt so bad for her. the mannequin dream was soooo sad..
    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Fake news. That never happened
    What never happened? Are you denying that Madelyne learned why her husband had left her and their baby by seeing him and Jean holding hands on TV? IMHO S'ym, who'd become techno-organic, probably manipulated the the computer to show that scene when the X-Men were away and nobody was there to comfort Maddie. If you mean the mannequin dream, Madelyne learned to her cost that "there are no dreams, only different 'tastes' of reality."
    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    As wano said, you need to read X-Factor as the story was chronicled from there. Scott thinks Maddie is dead. He found her body, or rather a cloned body that Sinister created. Weeks later he learned that was a lie when he saw her die on TV alongside the rest of the X-men in Fall of the Mutants. As far as he knows, he is a widower. He NEVER left Maddie to get back with Jean. He and Jean do not get together for quite some time and its only after Maddie's second faked death. Anyone readinig only UXM and not X-Factor (which served as a sister title for this) wouldn't get the full picture.
    Just because Scott didn't jump right into bed with Jean, that doesn't mean he didn't leave Madelyne because of her. He ran off the moment he learned Jean was alive.

    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    Thanks, I appreciate the update.

    Seems like quite a bit of murky, bad blood. I definitely would be on board with Madelyne turning her back to the X-world and never checking the rear view ever again. Maybe take off as a masked adventurer with literally a dark past who is just trying to do some good in the world fighting on the side of the angels as an antihero. I don't suppose a stroll through the Siege Perilous is an option?
    I think she needs to make peace with the x-Men before she can move on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Indigo Al View Post
    Excellent question!

    Greetings group, I too was a Maddie fan from the olden days who was shocked and outraged at how the character was treated in her fictional world and meta-fictionally.

    Now, as to Madelyne's redemption...

    1) Find a way to make her a normal woman, with normal parents and a normal past after all, with the clone Maddie/Goblin Queen a separate entity. You would have some major contortions and retcons involved after the major contortions and retcons involved turning her into a clone and then into a psychotic baby-sacrificing Fatal Attraction case, but it could be done. This is X-Men, after all!

    2) Treat the Goblin Queen as a full-borne demonic possession, influencing her behavior through 'progressive entrapment' immediately after Fall of the Mutants. That's not much of a stretch, after all. Think of the odd behaviors Regan did in The Exorcist before her possession became complete. The demon influenced her subtly and enabled her permission to gain full control of her physical body. Get rid of this idea that she wanted Nathan back to sacrifice him, instead of her making her deal with N'astirh in order to SAVE him.

    3) In an ethically questionable move, Prof X and Jean reprogram Maddie's psyche and memories to wipe out her cognition of her life after she met Scott. They suppress her powers. She lives her normal, happy non-Mutant life as a pilot in Alaska. But could the Goblin Queen be lurking beneath, emerging at key points to bedevil the X-Men and the Summers family? And what about the Phoenix?
    I like you ideas. Al. I've even thought of a way to make her a normal woman. The Phoenix force told Jean that it "gave Madelyne life": but it didn't say where. What if the PF found Madelyne, not in Sinister's lab, but in the cockpit of a crashed and burning plane? Sensing in the dying woman a passion for life that matched Jean's, it took Maddie's essence from her charred body and put her into the dormant clone body. In the process Madelyne's own memories became commingled with Jean's.

    But IMHO what really matters is getting the X-Men to see Madelyne as a real person regardless of her origin. Peter Parker's acceptance of Ben Riley sets an example.
    Last edited by Anodyne; 05-17-2018 at 04:19 PM.
    Beverly Allen, the Bee--with honey and stinger.

    "If humans have souls, then clones will have them, too."--Arthur Caplan

  5. #470
    Extraordinary Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anodyne View Post
    What never happened? Do you mean Madelyne discovering why her husband had left her? IMHO S'ym, who'd become techno-organic, probably manipulated the the computer to show Scott and Jean together when the X-Men were away and nobody was there to comfort Maddie. If you mean the mannequin dream, Madelyne learned to her cost that "there are no dreams, only different 'tastes' of reality."
    Scott never left Maddie for Jean. She was manipulated and her pain was valid based on the limited information she was given, but that and Uncanny X-men was limited information. It didnt depict the entire story.

    Just because Scott didn't jump right into bed with Jean, that doesn't mean he didn't leave Madelyne because of her. He ran off the moment he learned Jean was alive.
    He went to see if she was really alive and he was well within his right to do so. He didnt leave to end his marriage. He didnt leave to be with Jean. He didnt handle things well but neither did Madelyne with her ultimatum and trying to control him. Unfortunately their lack of communication gave Sinister the in he needed to exacerbate things

    Quote Originally Posted by Anodyne View Post
    No, thanks. Teaming Maddie up with villains again is not the way to redemption.
    Revanche wasnt a villian

  6. #471
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    Yeah Revanche was the other half of Nicieza's explanation of the whole bodyswap business with Psylocke so she was never a villain but could be a body in need of a new soul and such to then make her her own character as she'd already have the name Revanche, just have Maddy and Revanche both in a book and go from there with them not to just be X-characters...


    As for Maddy Scott knew what he was doing and what it probably meant for his marriage when he left and he did it anyway, and Maddy did have reasons to worry so she wasn't completely out of bounds...

  7. #472
    Astonishing Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anodyne View Post
    I think she needs to make peace with the x-Men before she can move on.
    I suppose, if you think that's truly possible. Most of the time people move on without reconciliation when the history is this tragic. You do it because there's just way too much bad blood and any attempts to patch it just leads to more wounds, not less. Not every relationship can be saved, nor ever wrong righted. Plus, at this point Maddie has been written as the clear cut villain. Whatever her justifications were, she crossed the line to the point that she's always going to be the one trying to make amends, even for stuff that wasn't her fault. She may not be able to make peace with others, but she can definitely find peace within herself. I think she has to pick herself up and move on. I'd hate to see constantly returning to the pages of X-Men as a villainess.

  8. #473
    Astonishing Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    I wonder would it be too much of a shortcut if a writer decided on something as far-fetched as having a new Maddie turn up? One from another reality, who spent time on Battleword during Secret Wars 2, unbeknownst to everyone. A Maddie who has a different past. She's still a clone of Jean, but how she came into being was one heck of a machination.

    Let's say that Sinister and Destiny knew each other in the early years on this alternate Earth. They were lovers, perhaps. One day while strolling, Sinister and Destiny happen upon John and Elaine Grey, who are pregnant with Jean. Destiny has a psychic flash at that moment that reveals to her that the child will be blessed and cursed with the power of the Phoenix. She later tells Sinister about her vision, and being the power mad bloke that he is, he concocts a plan to insinuate himself into the Grey's lives.

    Sinister creates a synthetic paravirus in his lab and infects Elaine using a go-between. Once she succumbs to the symptoms of the paravirus, which appears to threaten her pregnancy, Sinister reintroduces himself to the Greys as a preeminent virologist who just so happens to know the only means of "curing" Elaine . He admits that his methods are experimental and not exactly sanctioned by medical review boards, but the Greys are desperate and they agree to take Elaine to Sinister's sanitarium. It's during his "treatment" of Elaine that Sinister clones Jean's embryo. But instead of bringing the clone to term in his lab, he places the embryonic clone in the womb along with Jean. Elaine is ultimately cured of her life threatening “virus” and when she finally does gives come to term months later, she surprisingly gives birth to identical twins, which they name Genevieve (Jean) and Madelyne.

    The Greys raise both Maddie and Jean in their loving home, completely oblivious to the fact that Maddie is a clone. Sinister would spend the next few years as the family's personal physician. He has programmed the paravirus that he embedded into Maddie's DNA to trigger from time to time, so that he can carefully monitor her mutant development.

    For the most part Jean and Maddie have a happy childhood with their siblings, until one fateful day when Jean and Maddie are playing catch with their mutual friend, Annie Richardson. Tragically, Jean is struck by a car while trying to chase down an errant softball pass from Annie. ( A reversal of the 616 telling there.) As Jean lays dying in the street, Maddie and Annie race to her side. Enraged at Annie for having accidently thrown the ball into the street, Maddie pushes Annie's arm away while holding Jean simultaneously. The contact between the three girls in their heightened emotional state triggers a chain reaction!

    Maddie's Anodyne-like powers manifest in that instant, albeit taking a much darker form. Before she realizes what is happening, Maddie begins to drain the life force from Annie into herself and then redirects it into the now unconscious Jean. As she is doing this, the specter of death appears, unfurling its black cloak to envelop the three girls. Only Maddie sees it, which causes her to freak out all the more! Without intending to, Maddie completely drains Annie's life force. Death voraciously takes her -- and then lunges for Jean and Maddie. Maddie pours every iota into Jean and then collapses.

    When Maddie finally comes to, it's in a hospital bed, next to her sister. Jean is able to recount the psychic trauma of Annie’s death, but she doesn’t recall any of the actual details. Her mind has walled off the entire memory. Only Maddie knows the truth. Nevertheless, the death of their best friend, Annie, triggers Jean’s mutant powers. Jean never realizes or acknowledges that it was through her telepathic rapport with Maddie that she actually felt Annie's death.

    Both Jean and Maddie would go on to become first members and eventually leaders of Xavier's X-Men on this alternate Earth. They would be the best of sisters. But yes, their brief childhood rivalry would allow some snot-nosed kid named Scott to cross them up at least on one occasion. Despite her teenage dalliance with Scott, Maddie never falls for him. She never has his child. In fact, she never has a relationship with any of the Summers brothers. She tolerates Scott on account of him being her brother-in-law, but she abhors the rest of the lot. In fact, on one occasion she broke Alex's jaw, and on another, his leg. Sparring, no less. And poor Gabriel, for all of his power, runs like a little pup whenever he sees Maddie approaching. As it turns out, she and her half mystical, half cosmic "life spark/death seed" powers are the Kryptonite to his Superman. Her powers also explain how she managed to survive her Earth's destruction.

    As for Sinister, he would die before seeing his grand scheme come to fruition. Killed by Mastermind in an effort to gain marks of prestige in the ranks of the Hellfire Club and its clandestine and nefarious Inner Circle.
    Last edited by JudicatorPrime; 05-17-2018 at 11:10 PM.

  9. #474
    Extraordinary Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Yet another Madelyne Pryor? No way to another AR or clone of Maddie. The original or none at all

  10. #475

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    I know that there are a lot of people that can be blamed for the end of Scott and Madelyne's marriage, from Cyclops to Sinister to the editors who ha Jean resurrected and then retconned Maddie into being an evil clone. But whenever this topic comes up, I don't believe I have seen how the other members of the original X-Men handled the situation. They were not manipulated if I remember correctly.

    Angel was the first X-character to see Jean after she returned. I know he thought that Cyclops deserved to know that Jean was alive again, but he knew what it would do to Scott and Maddie's marriage. And he should have told Jean right away that Scott was married instead of leaving things up to Cyclops. And then Warren stood still and watched Scott and Jean suffer. I know that Angel tried talking Scott into telling Jean about Maddie, but once he realized that Scott couldn't bring himself to do it, he should have stepped in and told Jean that Scott was already married. I have always thought Angel deserved some more criticism than he has received for what happened to Scott and Maddie. Just my opinion.

    Same with Iceman and Beast. They could have stepped in to try and help Scott, Jean, and Maddie.

    I don't think you can just say that it was none of Angel, Iceman, or Beast's business. I know that if I had a friend who was trying to get back to gather with an Ex-boyfriend/girlfriend who was already married, I would make sure that friend knew the situation so that he/she wouldn't be put in this kind of position.
    Last edited by ArchAngelSliver; 05-18-2018 at 12:44 AM.

  11. #476
    Astonishing Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Yet another Madelyne Pryor? No way to another AR or clone of Maddie. The original or none at all
    I hear you. I just don't see any way of 616 Jean and 616 Maddie ever burying their grievances.

  12. #477
    Astonishing Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchAngelSliver View Post
    I know that there are a lot of people that can be blamed for the end of Scott and Madelyne's marriage, from Cyclops to Sinister to the editors who ha Jean resurrected and then retconned Maddie into being an evil clone. But whenever this topic comes up, I don't believe I have seen how the other members of the original X-Men handled the situation. They were not manipulated if I remember correctly.

    Angel was the first X-character to see Jean after she returned. I know he thought that Cyclops deserved to know that Jean was alive again, but he knew what it would do to Scott and Maddie's marriage. And he should have told Jean right away that Scott was married instead of leaving things up to Cyclops. And then Warren stood still and watched Scott and Jean suffer. I know that Angel tried talking Scott into telling Jean about Maddie, but once he realized that Scott couldn't bring himself to do it, he should have stepped in and told Jean that Scott was already married. I have always thought Angel deserved some more criticism than he has received for what happened to Scott and Maddie. Just my opinion.

    Same with Iceman and Beast. They could have stepped in to try and help Scott, Jean, and Maddie.

    I don't think you can just say that it was none of Angel, Iceman, or Beast's business. I know that if I had a friend who was trying to get back to gather with an Ex-boyfriend/girlfriend who was already married, I would make sure that friend knew the situation so that he/she wouldn't be put in this kind of position.
    At the end of the day, the writers wanted a specific outcome, so it really doesn't make sense to expect completely rationale actions from anyone involved. I mean we could just as easily blame Jean. When you come back to life, or emerge from a coma or whatever to find that the person that you loved has married someone else -- I don't care who that person is -- you avoid that bastard like the plague. You don't pretend that you can have a professional or platonic relationship with said person. You pack your stuff and you go and find happiness elsewhere. No matter how many lonely nights, or one night stands it takes, no matter how many tears you cry and country and blues songs you write, you find a way to move on. Period, end of story. The minute you decide that you won't do that, know that something devastatingly tragic is going to happen to another human soul and that's on your head. Always.

  13. #478
    Extraordinary Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    At the end of the day, the writers wanted a specific outcome, so it really doesn't make sense to expect completely rationale actions from anyone involved. I mean we could just as easily blame Jean. When you come back to life, or emerge from a coma or whatever to find that the person that you loved has married someone else -- I don't care who that person is -- you avoid that bastard like the plague. You don't pretend that you can have a professional or platonic relationship with said person. You pack your stuff and you go and find happiness elsewhere. No matter how many lonely nights, or one night stands it takes, no matter how many tears you cry and country and blues songs you write, you find a way to move on. Period, end of story. The minute you decide that you won't do that, know that something devastatingly tragic is going to happen to another human soul and that's on your head. Always.
    I dont think its fair to blame Jean. She didbt know. It was kept from her for weeks. She found out just as the Mutant Massacre was starting up. She had responsibilities to the children and Morlocks she had taken in, not to mention, Warren was hospitalized. It would have been selfish and insensitive of her to bail. In the midst of all this, Maddie became a nonfactor as she was presumed dead so there was no reason why Jean should have felt the need to leave

  14. #479
    Astonishing Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Maddie was presumed dead (like Jean), but was she ever legally declared dead?

  15. #480
    Extraordinary Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    Maddie was presumed dead (like Jean), but was she ever legally declared dead?
    Not the first time but she was the second. She had an actual funeral. We didnt see a death certificate on panel but thats something that presumably would have happened with the funeral. Speaking of which, it was kind of messed up that none of the X-men at the time showed up for her funeral. Its not like they didnt have Gateway to teleport them to it. Instead the next two issues following Uncanny had the girls go shopping at a mall and the men hanging out at a bar

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