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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by starduck View Post
    Does anyone else find it annoying when things like acknowledging racial and sexual minorities exist get called "sjw politics"
    I do.

    It's bullshit because racial and sexual minorities exist in real life.

    Why this "white supremacist" bullshit has suddenly entered comic fandom is beyond me.
    "Obviously not all conservatives are racists/bigots but all racists/bigots claim to be conservative"- Unknown

  2. #47
    Amazing Member Jokerr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    I do.

    It's bullshit because racial and sexual minorities exist in real life.

    Why this "white supremacist" bullshit has suddenly entered comic fandom is beyond me.
    And how exactly has “White Supremacy” entered comics? And this has nothing to do with being racist or sexist.
    But when you take a pre-established character who has existed for decades and has
    Developed a heavy fan following and replace them with a Black or Hispanic teenager for the
    Sake of being progressive, I can imagine fans won’t be happy with the changes.
    Why is this so hard for some people to understand?
    It’s kind of like the whole Titans-Starfire controversy. And before you respond with usual go-to
    Response (“Ohh, but Starfire is orange, not Black or White so why does it matter blah blah”)
    Let me explain something that should be blatantly obvious. Yeah, Starfire isn’t black or white. She’s Orange BUT she best resembles and possesses the features of a Caucasian woman.
    George Perez has even stated that the character was based on Red Sonja. And one of the most popular depictions of Starfire is the 2003 Teen Titans tv series where she was practically white witw a slight orange tint to her skin. I MEAN REALLY!!?? Is that too DIFFICULT to UNDERSTAND!!!
    It’s funny cause most people who are defending this aren’t even really fans of the show
    (MOST!!! ok..) Even some black fans of the teen titans think its weird.
    And don’t get this twisted, I’d be just as outraged if they would have made Cyborg in Justice League
    White, Asian, Hispanic or any other race or color other than black.
    Was it really that hard to just hire a white actress to play Starfire and give her an orange tan?
    And everybody would be happy. There are plenty of ways of introducing new characters, take Jessica Cruz and Simon Baz as examples of how to do it right. This really wasn’t the point of this thread but I felt the need to respond since you brought it up.
    And btw I like that quote you have, It’s funny…
    reminds me of a similar one I know...

  3. #48
    Mighty Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Should we make a different thread for this?

  4. #49
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    I do.

    It's bullshit because racial and sexual minorities exist in real life.

    Why this "white supremacist" bullshit has suddenly entered comic fandom is beyond me.
    Because white supremacists (and their equivalents) try to use every channel they can to send out their garbage, and there has always existed far-right elements in most fannish communities. Those were radicalised together with other far right groups.

    So you can find them in science fiction fandom, reenactment, gaming, comics, and certainly other fannish movements. Sf fandom managed to push them away, thanks partly due to sf fandom being highly organised on a grassroots level and they over-reached in 2011–2015 period with their Sad Puppies, but there are still remnants left (and sometimes influential ones, pushing back on work on safety and inclusion). Gaming was also hit hard, and so were comics.

    Gaming and comics also had the problem of the publishers/creators being less clued into the fannish movements, so were more susceptible to astroturfed campaigns, like what hit James Gunn or Chuck Wendig or Anita Sarkeesian.

  5. #50
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerr View Post
    And everybody would be happy. There are plenty of ways of introducing new characters, take Jessica Cruz and Simon Baz as examples of how to do it right. This really wasn’t the point of this thread but I felt the need to respond since you brought it up.
    And btw I like that quote you have, It’s funny…
    reminds me of a similar one I know...
    Yes, because it worked so well in the past. I mean, it isn't as if there was actually a whole line of books meant to implement new characters who aren't "legacy" or replacing the previous generations of "legacies" which is tanking badly because comic fans aren't bothering to read them because "Hey, they'll fail anyway, why bother!" and then complain when new peoples actually want the old timer's favorites to take a step back to allow for some new, more en phase with the age, characters.

  6. #51
    Amazing Member Jokerr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Yes, because it worked so well in the past. I mean, it isn't as if there was actually a whole line of books meant to implement new characters who aren't "legacy" or replacing the previous generations of "legacies" which is tanking badly because comic fans aren't bothering to read them because "Hey, they'll fail anyway, why bother!" and then complain when new peoples actually want the old timer's favorites to take a step back to allow for some new, more en phase with the age, characters.
    I had a hard time understanding what you were trying to say. You need to word that differently. Anyway, what was your solution again?

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerr View Post
    And how exactly has “White Supremacy” entered comics? And this has nothing to do with being racist or sexist.
    But when you take a pre-established character who has existed for decades and has
    Developed a heavy fan following and replace them with a Black or Hispanic teenager for the
    Sake of being progressive, I can imagine fans won’t be happy with the changes.
    Why is this so hard for some people to understand?
    It’s kind of like the whole Titans-Starfire controversy. And before you respond with usual go-to
    Response (“Ohh, but Starfire is orange, not Black or White so why does it matter blah blah”)
    Let me explain something that should be blatantly obvious. Yeah, Starfire isn’t black or white. She’s Orange BUT she best resembles and possesses the features of a Caucasian woman.
    George Perez has even stated that the character was based on Red Sonja. And one of the most popular depictions of Starfire is the 2003 Teen Titans tv series where she was practically white witw a slight orange tint to her skin. I MEAN REALLY!!?? Is that too DIFFICULT to UNDERSTAND!!!
    It’s funny cause most people who are defending this aren’t even really fans of the show
    (MOST!!! ok..) Even some black fans of the teen titans think its weird.
    And don’t get this twisted, I’d be just as outraged if they would have made Cyborg in Justice League
    White, Asian, Hispanic or any other race or color other than black.
    Was it really that hard to just hire a white actress to play Starfire and give her an orange tan?
    And everybody would be happy. There are plenty of ways of introducing new characters, take Jessica Cruz and Simon Baz as examples of how to do it right. This really wasn’t the point of this thread but I felt the need to respond since you brought it up.
    And btw I like that quote you have, It’s funny…
    reminds me of a similar one I know...
    Anna Diop is a very good and beautiful looking Senegalese actress. I really have no problem with her playing Starfire.

    I just wish that she looked similar (not talking about exact which is unrealistic)to that of the comics.

    There is a lot of racism that fuels the criticism of Starfire’s casting, but there are also people that just want a Starfire that looks similar to the comics. They don’t necessarily want her to look exactly like the comics. They want a Starfire that has an appearance that immediately tells you that she’s the super-powered alien warrior princess that looks like comic book warrior Red Sonja with feline traits which is what her creator artist George Perez said was her design in an interview.

    A lot of comic fans just want their comic book characters to come to life.

    Christopher Reeve playing and looking like Kal-El/Clark Kent/Superman set the bar for this. Admittedly, it’s a bit high. When I was a little kid in the 1970s, I loved Superman in the movies. Ever since seeing the first movie in 1978, I was always hoping to see more movie superheroes that look like comic book heroes coming to life. Of course, Linda Carter is a great example of comic book heroes come to life on television with her portrayal as Princess Diana/Diana Prince/Wonder Woman first back in 1975.

    I got accused of being racist because I mentioned that an easier route would have been to cast a woman with a golden complexion to be Starfire because Starfire originally had a golden complexion that was chalked up to being a Mediterranean tan in the comics before her skin was changed to orange.
    If anybody read the 1980-1996 Wolfman,Perez run Titans, you can see that she had golden complexion.
    Cyborg even called her Goldie a lot. Speedy had referred to her as Tawny Vixen.

    I am a multiracial person with light brown skin with golden overtones myself.
    I tend to refer to my skin color as tan.

    They accused me of being racist because I told that I wanted Starfire to look similar to the one in comics.

    Somehow, wanting something similar to comics is racism.

    Kory wore sunglasses to hide her Starfire identity when living as Kory Anders who was a fashion model

    people talked down to me like I don't know what I am talking about

    She was originally golden throughout the Wolfman Titans run from 1980 to 1996

    and even into the early 2000s



    George Pérez on Starfire

    Creating Starfire

    [from Focus on George Pérez]

    Pérez: “The Starfire character was something that Marv did want to do, he wanted to have a strong female alien character. […] I worked first from a visual point of view, devising the feline look to Koriand’r, off the basically Red Sonja look at first. Joe Orlando was the one who came in after seeing the original drawing and saying, “Make her hair a little longer,” and little did he know what he wrought.

    The Art of Starfire

    [From Amazing Heroes #50]

    George discussed the Titans, as well as how they are artistically-interpreted. Starfire, who is a particular fan favorite, is the free spirit of the team. She’s a contributing factor in the miraculous maturing of Dick Grayson. Koriand’r is nymph, stoic, and warrior laced into one being; a wild sexuality, gentle innocence, and samurai toughness which all combine into one of the most quick-thinking, authentically optimistic, and well-received characters in contemporary literature. The product of a culture where total honesty is the creed, the duplicity of human behavior is a constant wonder for her. She is each of us, without our troublesome masks and fears.

    A standout of Pérez’s artistry is his ability to render such an emotionally rooted being without the traditional focus of eyes. “My one advantage, particularly here, is body language. I’ve been commended for that, and it’s been a gratifying feeling. It’s been such a subtle build-up that I hadn’t really noticed it, until other people were mentioning it. The characters move in the way the characters should move, in contrast to everyone having interchangeable poses.

    “There’s also a little secret in handling Starfire, and it’s one that makes her face work. If you go back to the Blackfire storyline you’ll notice, since Kory is-in a lot of cases-very angry, her hairline is slightly higher, so her eyebrows can be seen. When she’s in that soft, demure, sad or happy type look, her eyebrows aren’t shown at all because the curls are so low and they curl upwards; thus making an ‘upward movement on the eyes right where they meet into the nose area to the forehead. Gives the eyes a slightly upraised, innocent look. So the curls end up softening her face, and they’re swept back any time I don’t want her to have the soft look.

    “In working the character to that degree, no one notices it, because her face seems to work. Marv never noticed it until I pointed it Out. It’s those wonderful curls, basically a larger version of Dick Grayson’s old curls [laughs] which make up the soft look. The only thing the eyes lack is the fact that they just can’t show direction as far as where she’s looking. As tar as expression, it’s absolutely no hindrance. The fact that they’re so round gives her a feline look. which works for her.”
    http://www.titanstower.com/starfire/


    Later artists have greatly diverged from George Perez’s art.

    In my humble opinion, writers have greatly diverged from Marv Wolfman’s writing

    Sometimes, I don’t see the softness and innocence that supposed to be in Starfire even though she’s also the badass warrior.

    Honestly, The only Titans stuff that I like is the Wolfman run comics and the Teen Titans animated movies.

    I like the original design of Starfire, but I think that her hair could be less extreme looking so she doesn’t stand out among humans if she wants a secret identity.

    With her original golden complexion that was chalked up to being a Mediterranean tan, she fit in easily with humans. Therefore, she had a secret identity as long as she covers her alien green eyes.

    With orange skin, she stands out too much that she cannot blend in with humans. A secret identity is impossible for her.

    This is a thread that I created to acknowledge and honor the iconic and popular relationship of Dick Grayson/Nightwing and Koriand'r/Starfire. It is also about defending Dick/Kory pairing as well as Kory as a character by clearing up misconceptions about their relationship being about just attraction,lust,and a meaningless romance.

    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/teen-...rfire-1975639/
    Last edited by Starrius; 10-16-2018 at 10:59 AM.
    I created a thread about Dick Grayson/Nightwing and Koriand'r/Starfire.
    It is to acknowledge and honor their iconic and popular relationship.
    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/teen-...rfire-1975639/

    I created a fan page about Peter Parker/Spider-Man and Mary Jane Watson.
    This page is for all the Spider-Marriage fans.
    http://www.facebook.com/SpiderManMaryJane/

  8. #53
    Mighty Member Rise's Avatar
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    Enjoying his AC so far, but I feel he is given too much power and hype from DC which I don't get why.

  9. #54
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerr View Post
    I had a hard time understanding what you were trying to say. You need to word that differently. Anyway, what was your solution again?
    I mean that if the "fan-favorites" don't take a step back or are race-changed into other medias than comics or during reboots like the New 52, then no new character will ever manage some staying power in D.C., while the old timers clamoring for OG Wally West/LOSH/JSA/WhateverOfWherever won't get any younger and will scream abuse at the slightest change to their idealized version of their favorite character/team.

    The New Age of Heroes books tried to do diversity "right" compared to Marvel, who got a lot of outcry about Miles Morales, Kamala Khan, Riri Williams, Moon Girl, America Chavez, etc. The Marvel's are now household names. They have proven to be successful and able to hold a ongoing, appearing on a team book and having cool stories. Meanwhile, the NAoH books are consigned -very sadly- to insignificance. Because peoples at D.C. didn't even want to try them. And Marvels has just as many characters in limbo than DC, teams left gathering dusts. But they are willing to say "Banner isn't the Hulk anymore, Amadeus Cho is!".

  10. #55
    Mighty Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    I mean that if the "fan-favorites" don't take a step back or are race-changed into other medias than comics or during reboots like the New 52, then no new character will ever manage some staying power in D.C., while the old timers clamoring for OG Wally West/LOSH/JSA/WhateverOfWherever won't get any younger and will scream abuse at the slightest change to their idealized version of their favorite character/team.

    The New Age of Heroes books tried to do diversity "right" compared to Marvel, who got a lot of outcry about Miles Morales, Kamala Khan, Riri Williams, Moon Girl, America Chavez, etc. The Marvel's are now household names. They have proven to be successful and able to hold a ongoing, appearing on a team book and having cool stories. Meanwhile, the NAoH books are consigned -very sadly- to insignificance. Because peoples at D.C. didn't even want to try them. And Marvels has just as many characters in limbo than DC, teams left gathering dusts. But they are willing to say "Banner isn't the Hulk anymore, Amadeus Cho is!".
    I learned a while back that there is no right way, people with that much hate don't want those characters in the first place. There's no "winning" here.

  11. #56
    Astonishing Member HandofPrometheus's Avatar
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    I read little of his Superman and it's honestly good. Props to him for launching YJ again.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9th. View Post
    I learned a while back that there is no right way, people with that much hate don't want those characters in the first place. There's no "winning" here.
    I was about to write a long post, but then I read yours and realized that I would be wasting my time. You are totally right. No matter how they are presented, how they are created and written, there will always be a vocal section of fandom who has so much hatred inside of them that they will ALWAYS find a way to say it was done wrong. This mythical "right way" doesn't exist for some people. When it's a minority character they are always beholden to unwritten and changing rules and guidelines. I've NEVER heard a non-minority character get blasted for not doing it the "right" way....With them it's never "forced" or "inorganic" or any of the other nonsense that gets thrown at minority characters. Anyway...

    I'm a big Bendis fan. I've never understood why he gets so much negativity, although in reality it's not that much. It's just the very vocal section of message board users who make it seem like more than it is, in my experience. In the real world he's a very popular and successful writer.

    I'm more interested in Superman now than I have been since at least the 90's. And I totally agree with the praise for his Jinx World stuff. He always kills it on his creator owned stuff and he has an absolute murder's row of artists working with him.

  13. #58
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel22 View Post
    I'm a big Bendis fan. I've never understood why he gets so much negativity, although in reality it's not that much. It's just the very vocal section of message board users who make it seem like more than it is, in my experience. In the real world he's a very popular and successful writer.
    One thing is of course that every time a major and beloved character gets a shift in direction, there will be some who don't like it. That is no matter if the story is good or the new direction is needed—heck, even Azzarello managed to get some fans for his Wonder Woman who didn't like Rucka's reorientation. Another is that Bendis is a highly productive writer, and that makes their impact even larger, especially if they like Bendis gets a huge chunk of a flagship brand.

    There is also a psychological mechanism among some fans to keep the distance to the "popular" iteration of a subject; it gives a certain status in being able to point out that you know more about the character and how they should be written than the actual writers.

    Another piece, and this one I feel is the one that is important to me, is that when I look at DCs lineup of writers, I see mostly middle-aged white dudes. And when you look at the writers who are responsible for multiple titles, they dominate the field entirely. This month King and Abnett wrote four new issues or stories, DiDio five, and Tynion and Bendis six. That's a sizable chunk of DC's monthly output, and it's also dominated on DC's flagship titles. And no matter if they are writing good stories now, creativity can only be kept going for so long before it goes stale or dry. It also leaves scraps for new or minority writers. And yes, I understand that new writers needs to be proven, but they also need to get enough work to work professionally if they are to become really good writers.

  14. #59
    Mighty Member upgrayedd's Avatar
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    Really enjoying this more than Jurgen's run.
    I have no beef with Vegans

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    One thing is of course that every time a major and beloved character gets a shift in direction, there will be some who don't like it. That is no matter if the story is good or the new direction is needed—heck, even Azzarello managed to get some fans for his Wonder Woman who didn't like Rucka's reorientation. Another is that Bendis is a highly productive writer, and that makes their impact even larger, especially if they like Bendis gets a huge chunk of a flagship brand.

    There is also a psychological mechanism among some fans to keep the distance to the "popular" iteration of a subject; it gives a certain status in being able to point out that you know more about the character and how they should be written than the actual writers.

    Another piece, and this one I feel is the one that is important to me, is that when I look at DCs lineup of writers, I see mostly middle-aged white dudes. And when you look at the writers who are responsible for multiple titles, they dominate the field entirely. This month King and Abnett wrote four new issues or stories, DiDio five, and Tynion and Bendis six. That's a sizable chunk of DC's monthly output, and it's also dominated on DC's flagship titles. And no matter if they are writing good stories now, creativity can only be kept going for so long before it goes stale or dry. It also leaves scraps for new or minority writers. And yes, I understand that new writers needs to be proven, but they also need to get enough work to work professionally if they are to become really good writers.
    Very good points and I agree with all of them. You know the saying, comics fans only get upset for two reasons: when things change and when they stay the same. So your point about any shift automatically losing some fans is taken.

    The hipsterism aspect is huge imo. Some people just will not like the popular writers. It goes against their self image. They think it gives them some sort of cred or something, I guess, to go against the most popular and successful writers. "You haven't heard of my favorite bands", that sort of thing. Bendis and especially Tom King get lots of that. They both get accused of not getting characters or changing them too much. In my opinion I would much rather have someone who has a new and different take on a character as opposed to presenting the same thing we've read for decades. New and unexplored aspects of a character are interesting to me. Plus people say it goes against the "core of the character", which is of course subjective. I think when people say that what they often mean is "The way the character was when I was eleven". These characters have been around so long and have had so many voices and interpretations that putting one era or version ahead any other is totally arbitrary. Some people would rather re read their greatest hits, and there's nothing wrong with that, I'm not positioning my take above theirs. I just don't understand it.

    DC has been awful with their hiring practices for a long time. They had a "New Age" with the same usual suspects. They launched "Young Justice", which is cool, but look at that creator lineup. Although I am excited for Wilson on Wonder Woman and DeConnick on Aquaman, so hopefully they are going in the right direction.

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