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Thread: Dark Phoenix

  1. #661
    Incredible Member Bunai's Avatar
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    I am HOPING this movie does well. I really do.

    My ire with FOX and their X-Men movie is that it has been 20 years and they still can't get past Charles and Erik's storyline. It has been railroading each and every movie and I'm tired of it. I want to know and care about other characters that are not Raven and Logan.

    They got a good cast of kids and so far have wasted them.
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  2. #662
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    I know it won’t happn but I really hope they drop the Scott - Jean relationship in the movie. It’s just nowhere near where it needs to be for any of their moment to work and I’d prefer it’s just dropped all together instead of being crammed in there with everything else that needs to be set up.

  3. #663
    (Formerly ilash) Ilan Preskovsky's Avatar
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    Man, does Fox just not give the slightest damn about this movie or what? I mean, trailers often give too much away but to all but show that Mystique (you know, arguably the biggest star in the film) dies and then have the director of the film confirm it just feels like a slap in the face of fans who want to go into the film not knowing gigantic spoilers. I have no real problem with Mystique dying because even though I actually don't have the problem with her character that so many do, since this probably will be the last X-Men film (is New Mutants still happening?) before Marvel Studios take over and punctuating it with a significant death does make sense but I would have liked to find that out, ya know, when actually seeing the movie!

    Apocalypse aside, I've really enjoyed the First Class series of movies so I still have some hope for this but the trailer was otherwise fairly meh and that the studio seems keen to just dump the film, are not good signs at all.

    This or New Mutants may be the
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  4. #664
    King of Wakanda Midvillian1322's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunai View Post
    I am HOPING this movie does well. I really do.

    My ire with FOX and their X-Men movie is that it has been 20 years and they still can't get past Charles and Erik's storyline. It has been railroading each and every movie and I'm tired of it. I want to know and care about other characters that are not Raven and Logan.

    They got a good cast of kids and so far have wasted them.
    I've never bought the relationship in these movies. In first class they knee each other for like a day and somehow were supposed to believe they are best of friends. If they would establish the actual relationship I'd appreciate it. Atleats the original trilogy didnt really show us but they told us about they're friendship. First class showed us and it wasnt that great a relationship. My take away is Mystique and then Beast are Xaviers closes friends

  5. #665
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatKeaton View Post
    Phoenix is Jean's split personality. The "solar flare" is a cosmic entity which merges with Jean's "Phoenix" personality trapped inside her, making it dominant and infinitely more powerful. So it's a combination between the two theories.
    This actually makes sense.

    So it's like

    Phoenix has always been inside Jean and a bit dormant unless Jean fully unleashed it somehow, but the solar flare is the mysterious force which enter Jean and merge with Phoenix and becomes Dark Phoenix.

  6. #666
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_whitequeen View Post
    This actually makes sense.

    So it's like

    Phoenix has always been inside Jean and a bit dormant unless Jean fully unleashed it somehow, but the solar flare is the mysterious force which enter Jean and merge with Phoenix and becomes Dark Phoenix.
    Hang on. Reality check. That makes zero sense. You can’t make Phoenix just a dormant part of Jean, that’s crazy. It is either a cosmic force or it isn’t.

  7. #667
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    I know it won’t happn but I really hope they drop the Scott - Jean relationship in the movie. It’s just nowhere near where it needs to be for any of their moment to work and I’d prefer it’s just dropped all together instead of being crammed in there with everything else that needs to be set up.
    Kinsberg says the relationship is the heart of the movie, so don't bet on that happening.

  8. #668
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Hang on. Reality check. That makes zero sense. You can’t make Phoenix just a dormant part of Jean, that’s crazy. It is either a cosmic force or it isn’t.
    well, based on the Phoenix Saga + Dark Phoenix Saga + All Phoenix Related Comics

    1. Phoenix is a cosmic entity which helped Jean to save the X-men and become Jean-Phoenix
    2. To retcon the story of Jean, they made Phoenix to be a separate entity who copied Jean's body and psyche and it actually put real Jean in a cocoon
    3. When real Jean got back, from X-Factor - Revolution - New X-Men - Astonishing X-men - End Song - War Song and etc (I guess there's a lot) -> Jean had begun to manifest Phoenix Powers again (without even asking for Phoenix Force for help like her 1st time mission in space)
    4. When Jean finally manifested the Phoenix, it just appeared from within Jean as her mutant powers kept growing stronger and evolving (somehow I think it made Phoenix to be inside her lying dormant)
    5. Warsong + Endsong + Resurrection - all comics confirmed about Phoenix Force's favorite avatar host, even confirmed that Jean and Phoenix are ONE of the same so Jean has fully reached phoenix godhood herself but always holding back.

    that's why I thought the prior explanation made sense, at least better than what it is shown in the trailer.

  9. #669
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    Kinsberg says the relationship is the heart of the movie, so don't bet on that happening.
    Yeah I know. I just hope they can execute it real well.

  10. #670
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_whitequeen View Post
    well, based on the Phoenix Saga + Dark Phoenix Saga + All Phoenix Related Comics

    1. Phoenix is a cosmic entity which helped Jean to save the X-men and become Jean-Phoenix
    2. To retcon the story of Jean, they made Phoenix to be a separate entity who copied Jean's body and psyche and it actually put real Jean in a cocoon
    3. When real Jean got back, from X-Factor - Revolution - New X-Men - Astonishing X-men - End Song - War Song and etc (I guess there's a lot) -> Jean had begun to manifest Phoenix Powers again (without even asking for Phoenix Force for help like her 1st time mission in space)
    4. When Jean finally manifested the Phoenix, it just appeared from within Jean as her mutant powers kept growing stronger and evolving (somehow I think it made Phoenix to be inside her lying dormant)
    5. Warsong + Endsong + Resurrection - all comics confirmed about Phoenix Force's favorite avatar host, even confirmed that Jean and Phoenix are ONE of the same so Jean has fully reached phoenix godhood herself but always holding back.

    that's why I thought the prior explanation made sense, at least better than what it is shown in the trailer.
    Thanks for the history lesson, which I didn’t need because I have read all of those comics, being a life long X-Men fan. It is good context, but it isn’t the whole story either.

    None of this has anything to do with my exclamation. We have seen in Apocalypse that Jean already has a Phoenix like power. It makes no sense to somehow separate that from the cosmic entity.

    I totally disagree that anything in comics canon has sought to suggest or even implied that the Phoenix force was a latent power.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 03-01-2019 at 04:58 AM.

  11. #671
    King of Wakanda Midvillian1322's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Thanks for the history lesson, which I didn’t need because I have read all of those comics, being a life long X-Men fan. It is good context, but it isn’t the whole story either.

    None of this has anything to do with my exclamation. We have seen in Apocalypse that Jean already has a Phoenix like power. It makes no sense to somehow separate that from the cosmic entity.

    I totally disagree that anything in comics canon has sought to suggest or even implied that the Phoenix force was a latent power.
    Yea that's not even debatable. But maybe white queen meant at one point Jean and the PF 100% completely merged into one bein instead of Jean just being a host.

  12. #672
    Extraordinary Member The Shape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Hang on. Reality check. That makes zero sense. You can’t make Phoenix just a dormant part of Jean, that’s crazy. It is either a cosmic force or it isn’t.
    Ultimate X-Men and Wolverine & The X-Men did both. A cosmic force that had been with Jean since birth.

  13. #673
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shape View Post
    Ultimate X-Men and Wolverine & The X-Men did both. A cosmic force that had been with Jean since birth.
    That is not the same thing.

  14. #674
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunai View Post
    I am HOPING this movie does well. I really do.

    My ire with FOX and their X-Men movie is that it has been 20 years and they still can't get past Charles and Erik's storyline. It has been railroading each and every movie and I'm tired of it. I want to know and care about other characters that are not Raven and Logan.

    They got a good cast of kids and so far have wasted them.
    Agree with this 100%. Mystique isn't even an X-Man, and yet she and Logan are always the main characters in the movies. Enough already! Same goes for Charles and Erik. They have decades worth of stories to draw from without rehashing the same things over and over again.

  15. #675
    Astonishing Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    The way I understand it, the Phoenix "force" is something of a regulatory endocrine system for the universe. Therefore, cosmic.

    Once in a while, sentient creatures within the universe are born with the ability to access the Phoenix and serve the universe as regulatory hormones. Some never fully manifest. Some manifest to early. Others manifest over time and mature into that role. Therefore, innate.

    QQ was a psychic powerhouse with the ability to access Phoenix. He died in NXM before the ability never fully manifested.

    Jean was a psychic powerhouse with the ability to access the Phoenix. It manifested far too early, in her young childhood. Charles Xavier was called, and put mental blocks on her psychic talent.

    During the Phoenix Saga, Jean accessed the Phoenix in her irradiated, panicked state, and manifested it as a superheroic savior, using her immense psychic talent to grant the Phoenix "force" a consciousness. Jean steered the Phoenix to save the X-Men and save her. The Phoenix, perceived as a separate entity by Jean, BECAME a separate entity with the ability to save the X-Men - another Jean.

    This consciousness is what remained on Earth and attached itself to Rachel.

    When Jean began manifesting Phoenix in NXM, it was as a matured adult woman. She accepted it and steered it without the passions that drove it to chaos and destruction during the DPS. Then she died, and re-emerged in the future. After defeating the Sublime Beast, she realized there is no separate entity, no separate consciousness, she and Phoenix and the universe are all part of the same multidimensional universe. With her Pheonix-ed psychic ability, she was ability to reach through time to touch Cyclops' mind and change the future.

    I have no idea wtf happened in Endsong, Warsong, AvX, or Resurrection. Phoenix is a mess.

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