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Thread: Dark Phoenix

  1. #1501
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    It is beyond just one guy bad decisions on a bad movie, XCU needed a "showrunner" with a long term vision. No amount of good decisions was saving Jean and Scott or Scott and Ororo from feeling a little awkward in Dark Phoenix. Now let's imagine if space rescue was at the beginning of Apocalypse. And you had a whole movie to build on something was happening to Jean and these characters friendship the next movie would have been on the sheer fact it feels like everyone cares for each other. Avengers 2 and Iron Man 2 are average movies being nice but those movies set up a ton of things that lead to successful other movies. Doing movies one by one as an individual movie is a good approach except for when you for sure are getting another movie. Dark Phoenix failed as much from Apocalypse not setting up things as did from Dark Phoenix itself being a mediocre movie.

  2. #1502
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    It is beyond just one guy bad decisions on a bad movie, XCU needed a "showrunner" with a long term vision. No amount of good decisions was saving Jean and Scott or Scott and Ororo from feeling a little awkward in Dark Phoenix. Now let's imagine if space rescue was at the beginning of Apocalypse. And you had a whole movie to build on something was happening to Jean and these characters friendship the next movie would have been on the sheer fact it feels like everyone cares for each other. Avengers 2 and Iron Man 2 are average movies being nice but those movies set up a ton of things that lead to successful other movies. Doing movies one by one as an individual movie is a good approach except for when you for sure are getting another movie. Dark Phoenix failed as much from Apocalypse not setting up things as did from Dark Phoenix itself being a mediocre movie.
    So it sounds like you say the problems are beyond one guy, but then suggest they get one guy to solve the problem?

    Kinberg did head things up and it's clear now, given what happened with the Fantastic Four and now the Apocalypse/DP disasters, that this guy doesn't know how to do superhero movies. He's just bad at it. Everything else you say is spot on IMO, but that's why Kinberg is the central problem. He lacked the vision to do this. He didn't brand or build this franchise, instead it slowly whimpered out by a lack of investment and interest by the public.

  3. #1503
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    When a sequel makes almost 200mil less than the previous movie it is not a huge hit. It did ok but that big a drop is not a real success and showed there were major problems with the franchise. It is especially bad when DoFP was so well received the sequel should have made at least as much if not more. Apocalypse dropped the ball on every level.
    Seems like there's the trend with successful trilogies that the first one does well, the second one not quite as well, and the third one is more of a financial return to form. Forget the math on why this's common, but there it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by BatKeaton View Post
    I don't agree about your criticism at all.
    "Apocalypse" was a brilliant superhero movie with a "cronenbergesque" feel.
    Maybe, in a couple of scenes, but I'm not sure that's a saving grace of the movie, anymore then Logan being bloody was what made that movie good in and of itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    En Sabah Nur was mysterious, menacing and amazing as villain.
    Ish. Oscar Isaac did have certain scenes where he did carry the character's presence, but he was pretty underdeveloped, esp. in comparison to the source material. Just wanting to conquer the world is far less interesting then wanting to advance the evolution of the species. I'm torn on the makeup and costume as I think the design itself is probably as good as we were going to get from the source material, but it really doesn't let Isaac emote that well. Acting-wise, some scenes work, but a bit too much ham and not much nuance. I don't think this villain holds up, esp. considering what the first couple movies did with Magento and considering that we got extremely well-done villains like Ego and Vulture only a year later. Apocalypse really is a throwback to the early MCU days and the likes of Malaketh and Ronan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    The entire movie had a strong sci-fi flavour but, at the very same time, it was comic bookish (in the right way). I loved the story-arc. This is the TRUE X-Men origin movie. An epic journey.
    Can't say I hate the movie (since I don't), but the more time goes on, the more flawed I think it shows itself to be. If nothing else, it's a really messy story in terms of structure and doesn't get itself started really well; the pacing is pretty off. I would rate it higher then X3 (which also has a lot of writing problems) and Origins: Wolverine (which has a cleaner story, but a more lifeless one), so there it is.
    Last edited by WebLurker; 06-24-2019 at 07:54 PM.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  4. #1504
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    Quote Originally Posted by SUPERECWFAN1 View Post
    Well that situation behind the scenes where Singer would take off for a few weeks and disappear. He had a history of every film doing this and finally it came to a head on Bohemian Rhapsody and Fox fired him off the film with a couple weeks to go. Of course the firing could have been a response as well to the latest allegations as well. Either way without Singer there as a sounding board and to actually tell Kinberg that some things needed changed ...we got the film we saw instead.
    Singer was still involved with Apocalypse and that didn't set the box office on fire. Personally, I feel they should have steered clear of touching upon Dark Phoenix again. They had their shot with The Last Stand. If they couldn't do it right first time out, what possessed them to think they could do it justice a second time?

    In any event, it is what it is. All we can do is hope that, once Marvel finally gets around to doing X-Men stuff, they hand the reins over to people who have respect and passion for the franchise.
    Last edited by Somecrazyaussie; 06-24-2019 at 06:15 PM.

  5. #1505
    Extraordinary Member The Shape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somecrazyaussie View Post
    Singer was still involved with Apocalypse and that didn't set the box office on fire. Personally, I feel they should have steered clear of touching upon Dark Phoenix again. They had their shot with The Last Stand. If they couldn't do it right first time out, what possessed them to think they could do it justice a second time?

    In any event, it is what it is. All we can do is hope that, once Marvel finally gets around to doing X-Men stuff, they hand the reins over to people who have respect and passion for the franchise.
    Serious question. Did you watch the movie? Because...

    spoilers:
    Jean doesnít become Dark Phoenix in the movie. The story about her evolving from that fate thanks to Xavier having hope in Jean controlling her powers. Similar to how DOFP was about Xavier turning Raven away from becoming Mystique. Both Dark Phoenix and DOFP even have the same narration opening about evolving beyond a destined fate.

    The notion of Jean being the X-Menís greatest foe is a marketing misdirection.
    end of spoilers

  6. #1506
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shape View Post
    Serious question. Did you watch the movie? Because...

    spoilers:
    Jean doesn’t become Dark Phoenix in the movie. The story about her evolving from that fate thanks to Xavier having hope in Jean controlling her powers. Similar to how DOFP was about Xavier turning Raven away from becoming Mystique. Both Dark Phoenix and DOFP even have the same narration opening about evolving beyond a destined fate.

    The notion of Jean being the X-Men’s greatest foe is a marketing misdirection.
    end of spoilers
    It wasn't marketing misdirection it was bad story telling. Jean wasn't the "enemy" technically in the Dark Phoenix Saga since the X-Men wanted to save her thru out the storyline. But the Phoenix persona no matter if going with the cosmic entity or darkside of Jean reveled in committing acts of evil and while not their greatest foe she is their greatest threat. The film tried to tell this story but failed this wasn't misdirection it was ineptitude.

  7. #1507
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    You've never watched a Cronenberg movie in your life, have you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    Even with as bad as it was Fan4stick was more Cronenberg than Apocalypse.
    While I'm not going to knock the "X-Men" film in question for being what it is, the honest truth is that it is neither brilliant or anything like Cronenberg's films.

  8. #1508
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    While I'm not going to knock the "X-Men" film in question for being what it is, the honest truth is that it is neither brilliant or anything like Cronenberg's films.
    Honestly I don't even think Apocalypse is all that bad it's just mediocre IMO I mean the opening scene and Magneto stuff was pretty good. But when it comes to Fox having Cronenberg themes in a Marvel property I don't see it in any of the X-Men films. Now Fan4stick yeah with the body horror themes the film went for and Doom exploding heads which honestly an issue I had with the film a film on Marvel's first family is no place for Cronenberg IMO and I say that as a Cronenberg and FF fan.

  9. #1509
    Mighty Member chamber-music's Avatar
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    The buzz/interest for Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix just didn't seem to be that big. Most of the buzz for Apocalypse seemed to be for the villain but that seemed to disappear somewhat when his appearance was met with a negative response.

    Dark Phoenix had no buzz at all. Seeing Jean go bad and the X-Men's response to that only really draws people in if they feel attached to the characters and you could argue Fox really hasn't done a great job of getting general audiences to care about more than a handful of mutant characters over the years.

  10. #1510
    Extraordinary Member The Shape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    It wasn't marketing misdirection it was bad story telling. Jean wasn't the "enemy" technically in the Dark Phoenix Saga since the X-Men wanted to save her thru out the storyline. But the Phoenix persona no matter if going with the cosmic entity or darkside of Jean reveled in committing acts of evil and while not their greatest foe she is their greatest threat. The film tried to tell this story but failed this wasn't misdirection it was ineptitude.
    The story opens with a narration about evolving beyond a destined fate and that is the story it wanted to tell. Apocalypse had a vision of Jean committing acts of evil, that was her destiny and if that had happened it would have went against the opening narrations. It would be like Mystique not putting the gun down in Days of Future Past, which basically had the same exact narration.

  11. #1511

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    Onslaught might have been more fitting given the Xavier/Magneto angle.

  12. #1512
    Extraordinary Member The Shape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chamber-music View Post

    Dark Phoenix had no buzz at all. Seeing Jean go bad and the X-Men's response to that only really draws people in if they feel attached to the characters and you could argue Fox really hasn't done a great job of getting general audiences to care about more than a handful of mutant characters over the years.
    The I think a huge part of the problem is that they are overshadowed by the original cast.

  13. #1513
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shape View Post
    The story opens with a narration about evolving beyond a destined fate and that is the story it wanted to tell. Apocalypse had a vision of Jean committing acts of evil, that was her destiny and if that had happened it would have went against the opening narrations. It would be like Mystique not putting the gun down in Days of Future Past, which basically had the same exact narration.
    Sad fact is you and many fans put more thought into wait was done in these films than the filmmakers for these films.

  14. #1514
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shape View Post
    The I think a huge part of the problem is that they are overshadowed by the original cast.
    I don't think so honestly. If you ask people on the street "quick name me the actors who played Cyclops and Jean Grey in the first X-Men movie" I bet 90% of people could not come up with there names off the top of their heads. They would probably get Stewart and McKellen and maybe Berry, but the rest they would just blank on.

  15. #1515
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    As others have touched on--a lot of the casual audience (like my dentist and hair dresser) both told me: "Why are they doing a remake of the movie that killed the franchise the first time?" To the people that didn't read the comic, Dark Phoenix is known as X3 disaster, that's a story they don't want to see remade. (Even if the remake was totally different)

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