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Thread: Dark Phoenix

  1. #676
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Why are you so keen on the word manifesting? It seems to be entirely the wrong word to use.

  2. #677
    Astonishing Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Why are you so keen on the word manifesting? It seems to be entirely the wrong word to use.
    Why not use the word?

    Not all psychics manifest Phoenix capability. Some do.

  3. #678
    Once And Future BAMF Hellion's Avatar
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    I really want to like this movie, but I don't see why people are bothering to debate about it. I mean, sure, diverse opinions are great and I'm all for expressing them, but this movie is kind of shielded from X-Fan scrutiny in some pretty specific ways:

    1. Obviously, this is the last core X-men film to be made and released by FOX. Everything moving forward will be garden-variety MCU fair and will consequently be completely different. There will be no "merging" of this current iteration of characters into the MCU; the Disney Gods will start over from scratch when they introduce mutants into their universe. This film is literally irrelevant besides being a swan song.

    2. Going 100% comics-accurate in telling the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix story was out of the question. For one, Disney hadn't yet gutted FOX's assets when this film was in production, so there was never a "why the hell not go for it since this franchise is ending?" moment from the filmmakers. Secondly, going full-blown cosmic in an established franchise that had yet to set up extraterrestrial life or space travel as a thing would have been seen as profit suicide by the studio execs. Maybe fans would love it, but narrative-wise it takes a hard turn from what audiences have come to expect with FOX's X-films. I guess you could say Apocalypse was our first introduction to alien life in the X-franchise, but his extraterrestrial origin was never more than merely hinted at. Now, with Dark Phoenix, we have Jessica Chastain's character who has been repeatedly called an alien, and we don't have any indication that we'll see any more aliens aside from her. It's really half-assessed storytelling that filmmakers have settled on, or were forced to do by the studio. It would have been better, if they wanted full-blown cosmic, to introduce aliens and such from the beginning of the First Class era. Having one now (and just one!) just doesn't flow well with the rest of the franchise continuity.

    3. In regards to storytelling consistencies and choices such as how Jean Grey becomes Dark Phoenix, through alternate persona or cosmic force exposure or some combination of both: the FOX X-films, especially since the decision to softly reboot the franchise following The Last Stand, have never made a huge effort at consistency, and they've committed every faux pas from screwing up or ignoring family trees to having the same character exist at different points in time in logically incompatible ways. I return to my problem with Chastain's character. Did we absolutely have to half an alien? Couldn't they double down on Douchey Xavier and have her be Cassandra Nova? Or, at the very worst, give us yet another Emma Frost?

    I don't mean to come across as so negative; I'm a lifelong X-fan and all of the FOX X-films have given me far more joy than heartburn. But. My point is, what kind of expectations did people have for this movie, really? Nothing I've seen in the trailers has surprised me or upset me. I set the bar just high enough for Kinberg & Co, and I haven't been disappointed.
    MAGNETO was right,TONY was right, VARYS was right.

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  4. #679
    Once And Future BAMF Hellion's Avatar
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    I'd also like to take a moment to weigh in on the issue of fatigue of the franchise's lead characters:

    I am with all you haters in regards to Wolverine and Mystique. Mystique as the core of the X-men never happened in the comics, and her being such an integral part of the reboot timeline always felt forced. It's like she's supposed to be the linchpin of the relationship between Xavier and Magneto and it doesn't work...and also it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. As for Wolverine, well, I hate that now half of the core X-men films were basically just Wolverine and His Amazing Friends. That said, I really enjoyed The Wolverine and Logan because for me, Wolverine is a character that works better in solo films.

    I have to disagree, however, with the hate heaped on how much attention is always given to Xavier and Magneto. Their warring philosophies drove the comics for decades and made them both incredibly relatable (Martin Luther King Jr. vs. Malcolm X). The story of mutants is that of a social/ethnic minority that is hated and feared. You need these two philosophies and how they pull at each individual character to make any X-men story work. Maybe you don't always need to have Xavier and Magneto physically present in every film, but their ideologies should always be present. In my opinion, Magneto works so well not because he's a villain (which is unfortunately how the films tend to treat him most of the time), but because he is an anti-hero, a logical response to the intolerance and violence directed at minorities by more hateful and fearful segments of the human population.

    Speaking of things done to death: is anyone tired of seeing mutants getting captured by (and inevitably escaping) paramilitary personnel??? We've had it in X2, X3, Wolverine Origins, Days of Future Past (to an extent), Apocalypse, Deadpool 2 and now Dark Phoenix. I mean, I know paramilitary organizations are the go-to move for mutant oppression, but how come we can never get scenes of mutants being mobbed by a violent riot of frightened, normal people? Or a realistic depiction of the Purifiers? If mutants are a metaphor for minorities, then I want to see the mutant equivalent of a Laramie, Wyoming hate crime. Enough with this "we hate you and keep trying to detain/imprison you even though all you do is save our world from imminent destruction" crap and give us some realistic drama.
    MAGNETO was right,TONY was right, VARYS was right.

    Proud member of House Ravenclaw and loyal bannerman to House Baratheon

    "I am an optimist even though I am told everything I do is negative and cynical" --Armando Iannucci

  5. #680
    King of Wakanda Midvillian1322's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    I'd also like to take a moment to weigh in on the issue of fatigue of the franchise's lead characters:

    I am with all you haters in regards to Wolverine and Mystique. Mystique as the core of the X-men never happened in the comics, and her being such an integral part of the reboot timeline always felt forced. It's like she's supposed to be the linchpin of the relationship between Xavier and Magneto and it doesn't work...and also it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. As for Wolverine, well, I hate that now half of the core X-men films were basically just Wolverine and His Amazing Friends. That said, I really enjoyed The Wolverine and Logan because for me, Wolverine is a character that works better in solo films.

    I have to disagree, however, with the hate heaped on how much attention is always given to Xavier and Magneto. Their warring philosophies drove the comics for decades and made them both incredibly relatable (Martin Luther King Jr. vs. Malcolm X). The story of mutants is that of a social/ethnic minority that is hated and feared. You need these two philosophies and how they pull at each individual character to make any X-men story work. Maybe you don't always need to have Xavier and Magneto physically present in every film, but their ideologies should always be present. In my opinion, Magneto works so well not because he's a villain (which is unfortunately how the films tend to treat him most of the time), but because he is an anti-hero, a logical response to the intolerance and violence directed at minorities by more hateful and fearful segments of the human population.

    Speaking of things done to death: is anyone tired of seeing mutants getting captured by (and inevitably escaping) paramilitary personnel??? We've had it in X2, X3, Wolverine Origins, Days of Future Past (to an extent), Apocalypse, Deadpool 2 and now Dark Phoenix. I mean, I know paramilitary organizations are the go-to move for mutant oppression, but how come we can never get scenes of mutants being mobbed by a violent riot of frightened, normal people? Or a realistic depiction of the Purifiers? If mutants are a metaphor for minorities, then I want to see the mutant equivalent of a Laramie, Wyoming hate crime. Enough with this "we hate you and keep trying to detain/imprison you even though all you do is save our world from imminent destruction" crap and give us some realistic drama.
    I'm tired how how wolverine took over but I'll never get tired of Wolverine. Just hope going forward they make him a secondary character and then let him have his own thing separate the xmen. Hes the most famous Xmen for a reason so I have no problem with him always having solo films or maybe a show on Hulu but have writers from the MCU work on so it connects better then the. Netflix shows did.

    Im tired of hearing about this version of Xavier and Magnetos friendship. Because we saw it in first class and shit lasted a couple days. They didnt spend years helping people together they spent days. So I dont buy the exyrodinary friendship.
    Last edited by Midvillian1322; 03-01-2019 at 02:08 PM.

  6. #681
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    FOX Mystique has nothing to do with comic book Mystique. They managed to create a new character out of it and it worked nicely. In the original trilogy, she was bad ass and ICONIC. And they managed to create a new heroine with her in the "soft rebooted" timeline starting with FIRST CLASS.

    I love her, and I don't consider her as being the comic book Mystique.

  7. #682
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_whitequeen View Post
    This actually makes sense.

    So it's like

    Phoenix has always been inside Jean and a bit dormant unless Jean fully unleashed it somehow, but the solar flare is the mysterious force which enter Jean and merge with Phoenix and becomes Dark Phoenix.
    Yes. Bingo!

    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Hang on. Reality check. That makes zero sense. You can’t make Phoenix just a dormant part of Jean, that’s crazy. It is either a cosmic force or it isn’t.
    No, wrong.

    Without any cosmic entity involved, Jean Grey manifested the "Phoenix" personality inside her on:

    X2
    X-Men: The Last Stand
    X-Men: Apocalypse

    The cosmic entity just merges with the 'Phoenix' personality inside her and creates Dark Phoenix. More vicious and more powerful than the "Phoenix" personality of "The Last Stand".
    Last edited by BatKeaton; 03-01-2019 at 02:37 PM.

  8. #683
    King of Wakanda Midvillian1322's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatKeaton View Post
    FOX Mystique has nothing to do with comic book Mystique. They managed to create a new character out of it and it worked nicely. In the original trilogy, she was bad ass and ICONIC. And they managed to create a new heroine with her in the "soft rebooted" timeline starting with FIRST CLASS.

    I love her, and I don't consider her as being the comic book Mystique.
    Not iconic in the least. She spoke like 5 lines people referred to her as the naked blue chick. And new Mystique has been the biggest complaint of fans and critics alike. Most becusse post First class Jlaw looks like she doesnt even want to be there

  9. #684
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    I have to disagree, however, with the hate heaped on how much attention is always given to Xavier and Magneto. Their warring philosophies drove the comics for decades and made them both incredibly relatable (Martin Luther King Jr. vs. Malcolm X). The story of mutants is that of a social/ethnic minority that is hated and feared. You need these two philosophies and how they pull at each individual character to make any X-men story work. Maybe you don't always need to have Xavier and Magneto physically present in every film, but their ideologies should always be present. In my opinion, Magneto works so well not because he's a villain (which is unfortunately how the films tend to treat him most of the time), but because he is an anti-hero, a logical response to the intolerance and violence directed at minorities by more hateful and fearful segments of the human population.
    If you wanna keep the ideologies, that's fine but personally I'm a tad bit tired of seeing Xavier and Magneto fight each after seeing it down for 9 movies straight. I'd of liked if they gave that conflict some room to breathe every once and while.

  10. #685
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatKeaton View Post
    Yes. Bingo!



    No, wrong.

    Without any cosmic entity involved, Jean Grey manifested the "Phoenix" personality inside her on:

    X2
    X-Men: The Last Stand
    X-Men: Apocalypse

    The cosmic entity just merges with the 'Phoenix' personality inside her and creates Dark Phoenix. More vicious and more powerful than the "Phoenix" personality of "The Last Stand".
    OK so this is just more Last Stand crap and not the comics as a X-Men fan not a Fox Men fan I'm out I won't see this in theaters and can't wait for the MCU reboot of X-Men. I've been very forgiving of this franchise but messing up Phoenix twice is a bridge too far.

  11. #686
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    I really want to like this movie, but I don't see why people are bothering to debate about it...

    ...I don't mean to come across as so negative; I'm a lifelong X-fan and all of the FOX X-films have given me far more joy than heartburn. But. My point is, what kind of expectations did people have for this movie, really? Nothing I've seen in the trailers has surprised me or upset me. I set the bar just high enough for Kinberg & Co, and I haven't been disappointed.
    You're not being too negative and I don't think there's much debate. Opinion on this seems to run from having low expectations to predictions about just how hard it will blow chunks. If anything, I dont think you're negative enough. This movie looks awful and from what little is known of its abortion of a plot line, you're being way too kind to the ending of the Fox X-Men franchise. This movie's going to stink.

  12. #687
    Extraordinary Member Cyke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    If you wanna keep the ideologies, that's fine but personally I'm a tad bit tired of seeing Xavier and Magneto fight each after seeing it down for 9 movies straight. I'd of liked if they gave that conflict some room to breathe every once and while.
    I just finished watching the 2nd season of Legion. Goddamn, the Shadow King is so charismatic, with such a great screen presence, and -- perhaps ironically -- just magnetic. I love imagining the movie Xaviers doing battle with him (I know about Harry Lloyd).

    I doubt they'll make an MCU version of the Shadow King anytime soon, but it really is a breath of fresh air to see the heroes fight someone else other than Magneto.

  13. #688
    Extraordinary Member The Shape's Avatar
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    Seems that some people think that there was also a train scene in X3. Damn, was the movie so forgettable that people are imagining things that never happened?

  14. #689
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    I know they couldn't get the movie done in time but it should have been released President's day long weekend. It's going to get slaughtered in the current weekend slot. Too much competition and just not enough buzz for this movie IMO. Too bad. I think some of the actors deserve better than this.

  15. #690
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midvillian1322 View Post
    Not iconic in the least. She spoke like 5 lines people referred to her as the naked blue chick. And new Mystique has been the biggest complaint of fans and critics alike. Most becusse post First class Jlaw looks like she doesnt even want to be there
    Your opinion. Rebecca as Mystique was 100% iconic in 2000-2006, and J Lawrence has been praised by critics. She did a fine job. You're not a fan of the movies. It's okay.

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