Dark Phoenix

[Killerbee911]

^Cyclops didn’t get less screentime in Apocalypse. That was the most he ever had in the franchise.

This is not worth arguing about considering how close it is honestly. But yes Apocalypse is the most cyclops has been in the movie but since they unnecessary change aspects of the X-men story instead of being Xavier one of first student and confident leader, Cyclops one of the anchors of the X-men is kinda whiny sniffling kid and Mystique is confident but reluctant mutant savior and leader of the X-men.

[C_Miller]

The X-Men movies have never really made sense to me. They had the opportunity to do something really interesting when they decided to go back and do First Class, but they just didn't do that thing and now here we are with Simon Kinberg's directorial debut, which in all honesty will likely be terrible. It's funny. One of the podcasts I listen to was talking about the trailer and saying that it might be good and Kinberg should be allowed to tell his version of the Dark Phoenix Saga. It was completely lost on him that he wrote The Last Stand...

[Divine Spark]

The X-Men movies have never really made sense to me. They had the opportunity to do something really interesting when they decided to go back and do First Class, but they just didn't do that thing and now here we are with Simon Kinberg's directorial debut, which in all honesty will likely be terrible. It's funny. One of the podcasts I listen to was talking about the trailer and saying that it might be good and Kinberg should be allowed to tell his version of the Dark Phoenix Saga. It was completely lost on him that he wrote The Last Stand...

Zak Penn was writer on The Last Stand(who also worked on X2). Kinberg was only co-writer and likely not even lead writer since Penn was on the last film. It’s been known for well over a decade that is not the story either of them wanted. Not even Kevin Feige blames them as he hired Penn for two MCU films.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Men%..._Stand#Writing


And X3 was not based on Dark Phoenix. It was based on the Gifted storyline.

[jetengine]

Zak Penn was writer on The Last Stand(who also worked on X2). Kinberg was only co-writer and likely not even lead writer since Penn was on the last film. It’s been known for well over a decade that is not the story either of them wanted. Not even Kevin Feige blames them as he hired Penn for two MCU films.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Men%..._Stand#Writing


And X3 was not based on Dark Phoenix. It was based on the Gifted storyline.

Why was Dark Phoenix shoved in then ?

[Divine Spark]

Why was Dark Phoenix shoved in then ?

The link explains.

[Jokerz79]

The link explains.

Kinberg wanted "The Dark Phoenix Saga" to be the emotional plot of the film, while "Gifted" would serve as the political focus.

The Studio then came in and wanted to cut the Phoenix story but mixing them was Kinberg's idea.

Oh also then there's these gems

Penn defended the divergences from the original Dark Phoenix stories, stating that the Phoenix was not a firebird-shaped cosmic force "because it doesn't fit into the world," and that Cyclops did not have as much screentime as Wolverine because the latter was more popular and "with Cyclops, you can't see his eyes. It's a harder character to relate to for the audience." Killing Cyclops was Fox's decision, based on the availability of actor James Marsden, who was cast in Singer's Superman Returns. The studio considered killing him off-screen with a dialogue reference, but Kinberg and Penn insisted that Jean kill him, emphasizing their relationship.

Yeah every bad idea that deluded the Phoenix story was their idea.

As for Feige he wasn't President of Marvel Studios till March 2007 so he didn't hire Penn for Incredible Hulk and even Avengers he still had David Maisel and Ike Perlmutter above him all I know since Feige got full control Penn hasn't written for Marvel since.

[Divine Spark]

The Studio then came in and wanted to cut the Phoenix story but mixing them was Kinberg's idea.

Yeah, but he still wanted Jean to take center stage as that quote suggested which is not what happened in the final product.

[Jokerz79]

Yeah, but he still wanted Jean to take center stage as that quote suggested which is not what happened in the final product.

Emotional Plot doesn't equate to center stage she was the emotional Plot in his final product if he wanted her center stage he never would had infused the Gifted story into it.

[Divine Spark]

Emotional Plot doesn't equate to center stage she was the emotional Plot in his final product if he wanted her center stage he never would had infused the Gifted story into it.

The link says that the studio executives are the reason why Jean didn’t have much to do.

Still the disputes made them not add much for Jean Grey to do in most of the film's second half, as the executives considered the tone of the Phoenix story too dark for a mainstream summer movie, and that its appeal would be limited to hardcore fans rather than a general audience.

Infusing it with Gifted wouldn’t have necessarily not have it at center stage. Ragnarok still took center stage in Thor 3 despite being infused with Planet Hulk for instance.

[Brian B]

The X-Men movies have never really made sense to me. They had the opportunity to do something really interesting when they decided to go back and do First Class, but they just didn't do that thing and now here we are with Simon Kinberg's directorial debut, which in all honesty will likely be terrible. It's funny. One of the podcasts I listen to was talking about the trailer and saying that it might be good and Kinberg should be allowed to tell his version of the Dark Phoenix Saga. It was completely lost on him that he wrote The Last Stand...

Does anyone really argue to give Kinberg his chance to tell his X-Men story? That's ridiculous. He's produced many of them already and written a bit. The mess that is Fox's X-Men belongs in large measure to Kinberg already.

[CRaymond]

The narrative leap from X2 to bird-alien cosmic chicken legend psychic energy creature would've been far too great for early 2000s audiences. The Studio made the right choice for that reason.

The writers actually succeeded in threading the needle between humans suppressing mutant powers and Xavier's actions locking up Jean's immense potential. The finished product FELT like a mess because it wasn't a story, it was a screenplay-by-committee.

The Dark Phoenix Saga doesn't work as a standalone movie. It works as a Netflix series.

Dark Phoenix isn't about the power of a cosmic god(dess). It's about the unimaginable power of a young woman, the men who believe she shouldn't control it, and what happens when she finds out. The last Stand was sloppy, but it's exactly about that.

[Brian B]

The narrative leap from X2 to bird-alien cosmic chicken legend psychic energy creature would've been far too great for early 2000s audiences. The Studio made the right choice for that reason.

The writers actually succeeded in threading the needle between humans suppressing mutant powers and Xavier's actions locking up Jean's immense potential. The finished product FELT like a mess because it wasn't a story, it was a screenplay-by-committee.

The Dark Phoenix Saga doesn't work as a standalone movie. It works as a Netflix series.

Dark Phoenix isn't about the power of a cosmic god(dess). It's about the unimaginable power of a young woman, the men who believe she shouldn't control it, and what happens when she finds out. The last Stand was sloppy, but it's exactly about that.

I think Dark Phoenix would work better as a Netflix series or something like that. It would give the time needed to bring in the Shi'ar, Hellfire Club and all the rest.

Dark Phoenix is also about someone giving into temptation and paying the price for it.

[CRaymond]

Dark Phoenix is also about someone giving into temptation and paying the price for it.

You’re absolutely right. That component is/was lost in Last Stand, barely grazed in UA, evident in Willow’s season of the witch... and looks like a red herring in this new film.

[Hellion]

A true adaptation of the Dark Phoenix Saga was never in the cards for the FOX X-franchise. They never set the grounds for the cosmic portion of the story. The cosmic Phoenix entity is easy to do: it's a force of creation and destruction, you could tie it into the belief systems of some ancient human civilization (like those who worshiped Apocalypse), and the story would be fine. Audiences would be fine.

But you can't just suddenly thrown in an alien (Chastain) or aliens (Shi'ar Empire) without context in a single film. Even the MCU realized that. They first established aliens in Thor, being that Asgardians are technically an advanced race of aliens mistaken on Earth as the Norse pantheon, and they also established that the Asgardians maintain connections with several other planets/worlds/realms, what-have-you. Then, in Avengers, they expanded on that with Thanos and the Chitauri, and the rest is history.

A proper Dark Phoenix Saga adaptation was never gonna happen with FOX because they've never cared enough to craft a consistent narrative throughout its franchise, let alone slowly build up and expand upon its fictional world.

[Divine Spark]

A true adaptation of the Dark Phoenix Saga was never in the cards for the FOX X-franchise. They never set the grounds for the cosmic portion of the story. The cosmic Phoenix entity is easy to do: it's a force of creation and destruction, you could tie it into the belief systems of some ancient human civilization (like those who worshiped Apocalypse), and the story would be fine. Audiences would be fine.

But you can't just suddenly thrown in an alien (Chastain) or aliens (Shi'ar Empire) without context in a single film. Even the MCU realized that. They first established aliens in Thor, being that Asgardians are technically an advanced race of aliens mistaken on Earth as the Norse pantheon, and they also established that the Asgardians maintain connections with several other planets/worlds/realms, what-have-you. Then, in Avengers, they expanded on that with Thanos and the Chitauri, and the rest is history.

A proper Dark Phoenix Saga adaptation was never gonna happen with FOX because they've never cared enough to craft a consistent narrative throughout its franchise, let alone slowly build up and expand upon its fictional world.

That reminds me of the MCU not establishing metaphysical entities and these we weren’t given a proper Infinity Saga.