Dark Phoenix

[Scott Taylor]

You really should elaborate since you are seemingly in the minority even on this thread.

You'd read a lot of the criticisms about the movie in this thread before you saw it, so do you think any of those complaints are valid?

What are the specific elements you liked about the movie? Where do you think the critics of the movie got it wrong?

So many criticisms, there is no way I can tackle them all. But - the criticism of Mystique being all girl power with her one line to Xavier - completely unfair. Its a line that had nothing to do with girl power and everything to do with Xavier being ... well, Xavier. Did people forget that he has manipulated the X-Men several times during the comic history and in these movies? The whole disagreement between certain X-Men with Xavier is used in a very comics-true fashion, especially for those of us who really loved the Claremont run. Its set up indirectly during the introductory scene of the movie and then followed up several times, to ultimately reach a redemptive and satisfying moment for Xavier as one of the bigger sub-plots.

Dunno. Name some other specific criticisms and I can try and respond.

Elements that were highlights for me:

1) The Action - Holy ****! This movie is like the action in the future parts of DoFP turned up to 11. Nightcrawler cuts loose. Cyclops actually uses his powers smartly for once. Storm does cool stuff with her powers and this storm is sooooo much better than Halle Berry ever was - kind of a combination of Storm and Iceman and I dug it. Beast was great. I mean - if people saw the train scene and thought that was stupid and boring then I really believe those people need to start a quilting club or something else other than comics. That was brilliant! And it was one of three amazing action sequences, along with a few more mini-sequences.

2) Jean Grey - I have to be honest, in that I really didn't like her in Apocalypse. Felt she was underused and just kind of came out of nowhere with the killing blow at the end. She's had a rocky past in all of this franchise, lets face it. But this movie created a viable character arc for her and I felt that Sophie Turner really sold the character and her fight against the dark turn that was thrust upon her. And she ends a hero.

3) The X-Men - As I said, action is a key element of the film. But this is the first flick since X2 where I felt that all the X-Men were used together as a team, balanced and got to participate, both in dialogue and in getting stuff done. Well, except for Dazzler but who cares about that really?

4) Genosha - First, it was never named. So i'm assuming. But I liked the whole idea they were going for with Magneto being an outcast along with a bunch of other mutants as a counter to Xavier's school. Plus I liked the whole container city farmer thing. Shrug, personal preference maybe but it worked for me.

5) The Heart - This movie has a strong emotional core to it. I seriously am going to evoke Claremont again here. This felt like a 1980s X-Men story of his, any of them, in terms of the heart.

Weaknesses:

1) The weakest part of the film for me was Mystique. Just don't care for the actor, personally. But heck she dies pretty quickly, so its all good there. The idea of Mystique carries on through the film as motivation for Beast and Magneto in particular. But its not as if they name the school after her. She's gone, serves a purpose to move the plot along, and just kind of fades into obscurity at the end.

2) The absolute worst part about loving this movie is that now I feel that I have to accept X3:Last Stand to make the overall timeline work for me. This movie was so good that it made Last Stand better in an odd way, in my own personal canon. I may need counseling.

[Scott Taylor]

At any rate, I loved Dark Phoenix and I suspect you will too. It's filled with great character moments and has a strong emotional core, as well as being a satisfying sendoff for most of the characters.

Yep. Thanks for the recommendation. Probably going to see it again with my kids soon.

[David Walton]

Elements that were highlights for me:

1) The Action - Holy ****! This movie is like the action in the future parts of DoFP turned up to 11. Nightcrawler cuts loose. Cyclops actually uses his powers smartly for once. Storm does cool stuff with her powers and this storm is sooooo much better than Halle Berry ever was - kind of a combination of Storm and Iceman and I dug it. Beast was great. I mean - if people saw the train scene and thought that was stupid and boring then I really believe those people need to start a quilting club or something else other than comics. That was brilliant! And it was one of three amazing action sequences, along with a few more mini-sequences.

Absolutely! And I think the fights had a logical flow about them. But I enjoy smaller scale, more intimate fight scenes. Not everything needs to be a hundred heroes and villains rushing at each other in an open urban space as large as a football field.

2) Jean Grey - I have to be honest, in that I really didn't like her in Apocalypse. Felt she was underused and just kind of came out of nowhere with the killing blow at the end. She's had a rocky past in all of this franchise, lets face it. But this movie created a viable character arc for her and I felt that Sophie Turner really sold the character and her fight against the dark turn that was thrust upon her. And she ends a hero.

I loved Sophie Turner as Jean in Apocalypse, too, but she took her acting to the next level here. Fantastic performance.

3) The X-Men - As I said, action is a key element of the film. But this is the first flick since X2 where I felt that all the X-Men were used together as a team, balanced and got to participate, both in dialogue and in getting stuff done. Well, except for Dazzler but who cares about that really?

It was great to see the team gel like they did.

4) Genosha - First, it was never named. So i'm assuming. But I liked the whole idea they were going for with Magneto being an outcast along with a bunch of other mutants as a counter to Xavier's school. Plus I liked the whole container city farmer thing. Shrug, personal preference maybe but it worked for me.

I prefer Genosha as they depicted it. Magneto's nation state isn't independently wealthy. Worth noting that when Genosaha is depicted as a paradise, it's usually a trap.

5) The Heart - This movie has a strong emotional core to it. I seriously am going to evoke Claremont again here. This felt like a 1980s X-Men story of his, any of them, in terms of the heart.

At its core, Dark Phoenix is about the bond between an adoptive father and his daughter, and it's very well done.

[Mutant 77]

Just watched the movie for the first time.

I will write about it later.

[Scott Taylor]

At its core, Dark Phoenix is about the bond between an adoptive father and his daughter, and it's very well done.

Hadn't thought about it that way before now, but you are right. The interaction between Xavier and Jean, with the aliens as the counter to that, is the central struggle to the movie. In the end, Jean chooses Xavier over the aliens and her biological father because of that bond.

[Divine Spark]

Seems like they cut out A LOT of scenes.

https://twitter.com/ImAFilmEditor/st...61107400687616

[Jokerz79]

Seems like they cut out A LOT of scenes.

https://twitter.com/ImAFilmEditor/st...61107400687616

Jesus these people on Twitter are becoming as annoying as Release the Snyder Cut much like Snyder Kinberg's Cut might had been his vision and a more cohesive story but given most of Kinberg's track record and own comments that vision would still be bad IMO.

Thank God Feige now has the X-Men.

[Sam Robards, Comic Fan]

Seems like they cut out A LOT of scenes.

https://twitter.com/ImAFilmEditor/st...61107400687616

#ReleaseTheKinbergCut, anyone?

...these people on Twitter are becoming as annoying as Release the Snyder Cut much like Snyder Kinberg's Cut might had been his vision and a more cohesive story...

I was actually gonna say something along those lines but with a positive connotation since I consider myself to be among the Snyder Cut movement.

If Fox/Disney has an extended version of the film, I'd be surprised if they didn't release on home release, if only to try and spark home sales: naturally, I'm all for it, considering that that was my biggest issue with the film.

I mean, if freakin' Green Lantern can get an extended cut (and I say that as a heartbroken GL fan), this sure as heck can.

[Jokerz79]

#ReleaseTheKinbergCut, anyone?



I was actually gonna say something along those lines but with a positive connotation since I consider myself to be among the Snyder Cut movement.

If Fox/Disney has an extended version of the film, I'd be surprised if they didn't release on home release, if only to try and spark home sales: naturally, I'm all for it, considering that that was my biggest issue with the film.

I mean, if freakin' Green Lantern can get an extended cut (and I say that as a heartbroken GL fan), this sure as heck can.

I don't think a Snyder Cut Justice League will be good but IMO it would be more cohesive Synder definitely has more of an argument given WB had another director work on JL who bad a different style especially tone than him causing a notable clash.

Kinberg though what Marvel films did he serve as both Writer and Producer on once Lauren Shuler Donner quit having input on the films? Fan4stick, Apocalyse, and now Dark Phoenix that is not encouraging also every single one of these films had production issues and there is one common thread now IMO.

Did the Studio make decisions that slightly tied his hands? Yes. But also people have said they learned the wrong lessons from Apocalypse especially that the story needed to be smaller and that also helped with the issues with telling the Phoenix story in this film. I mean Kinberg was a big cheerleader of the more "Grounded" approach to this film while making it.

[Sam Robards, Comic Fan]

I don't think a Snyder Cut Justice League will be good but IMO it would be more cohesive Synder definitely has more of an argument given WB had another director work on JL who bad a different style especially tone than him causing a notable clash.

Without seeing it, we don't know how it'd compare, but you're right in that it would definitely be more tonally cohesive with what came before. I'm of the opinion that it would be far better than the theatrical cut (we know it features a Darkseid v Ares fight in the flashback and offers much more for Cyborg and Flash to do), but that could just be me.

Kinberg though what Marvel films did he serve as both Writer and Producer on once Lauren Shuler Donner quit having input on the films? Fan4stick, Apocalyse, and now Dark Phoenix that is not encouraging also every single one of these films had production issues and there is one common thread now IMO.

To be fair, the issue with Fan4stick was that they hired Josh Trank to do an FF movie: that's like mixing oil and water, so that movie was doomed from the start. I liked both Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix, so we're just of differing opinions there.

Did the Studio make decisions that slightly tied his hands? Yes. But also people have said they learned the wrong lessons from Apocalypse especially that the story needed to be smaller and that also helped with the issues with telling the Phoenix story in this film. I mean Kinberg was a big cheerleader of the more "Grounded" approach to this film while making it.

In my mind, the biggest issues with Dark Phoenix (namely, the lack of connective tissue and the dearth of development for Vuk and the D'Bari) arose when the runtime was hacked down. That may or may not be addressed in a potential director's cut, but we'll see if/when that happens. I was ok with the reduced scale, as Jean's character is the integral part of DP, and I think they did that very well.

Heck, you could compare the D'Bari here to the Chitauri in The Avengers. They were just an alien menace there to give the heroes something to fight. The difference being that while The Avengers had an established villain in Loki at the helm, Dark Phoenix didn't have that luxury. Continuing down this rabbit hole, if you look at The Avengers by itself, you don't get much more development from Loki than you do with Vuk: Loki just had the advantage of getting all of his background and motivations spelled out in a previous film.

[Jokerz79]

Without seeing it, we don't know how it'd compare, but you're right in that it would definitely be more tonally cohesive with what came before. I'm of the opinion that it would be far better than the theatrical cut (we know it features a Darkseid v Ares fight in the flashback and offers much more for Cyborg and Flash to do), but that could just be me.



To be fair, the issue with Fan4stick was that they hired Josh Trank to do an FF movie: that's like mixing oil and water, so that movie was doomed from the start. I liked both Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix, so we're just of differing opinions there.



In my mind, the biggest issues with Dark Phoenix (namely, the lack of connective tissue and the dearth of development for Vuk and the D'Bari) arose when the runtime was hacked down. That may or may not be addressed in a potential director's cut, but we'll see if/when that happens. I was ok with the reduced scale, as Jean's character is the integral part of DP, and I think they did that very well.

Heck, you could compare the D'Bari here to the Chitauri in The Avengers. They were just an alien menace there to give the heroes something to fight. The difference being that while The Avengers had an established villain in Loki at the helm, Dark Phoenix didn't have that luxury. Continuing down this rabbit hole, if you look at The Avengers by itself, you don't get much more development from Loki than you do with Vuk: Loki just had the advantage of getting all of his background and motivations spelled out in a previous film.

Even in Avengers Loki had way more development we saw him as a manipulator down to wanting Banner on the Shield Helicarrier, they developed Thor's disapproval of him yet desire to have Loki come home meaning even if you never saw Thor there was more to Loki than just being evil. The Thor scenes also rehashed but introduced to new fans the jealously Loki had for Thor. Also his Ego was on full display and then there was just TH's charm as the character.

Vuk's sole reason for wanting the Phoenix was developed but it was very basic Cosmic Being destroyed World Vuk wants Cosmic Being to restore World but nothing in terms of personality. Also with that backstory Vuk could had been very sympathetic but nothing even leaked sounds like they were going there with Vuk.

[Scott Taylor]

Vuk and the other aliens are clearly not supposed to be sympathetic at all. None of them even show a glimmer of that. They see humans as inferior (which they are) and the earth as just a place where they need to be to get what they want (which it is). I suppose they could have developed her more by showing she was in love with the black alien guy or that she had a family that was destroyed or that she had a troubled past back on her home planet. But who cares? Glad they didn't waste time on any of that, the aliens were just walking McGuffins, and thats all they needed to be for the film.

[Mutant 77]

Did you like the cinematography of the Train Fight? And did you like that the entire fight was set on a train resembling "Snowpiercer"?

[Jokerz79]

Did you like the cinematography of the Train Fight? And did you like that the entire fight was set on a train resembling "Snowpiercer"?

It didn't blow me away but thought it looked okay.

Will say I just watched First Class today because I lost my copy of DOFP (Rogue Cut) in a move and got a new copy today I'm going to watch either tonight or tomorrow and I do think the First Class action was better than Dark Phoenix action scenes.

[David Walton]

Vuk and the other aliens are clearly not supposed to be sympathetic at all. None of them even show a glimmer of that. They see humans as inferior (which they are) and the earth as just a place where they need to be to get what they want (which it is). I suppose they could have developed her more by showing she was in love with the black alien guy or that she had a family that was destroyed or that she had a troubled past back on her home planet. But who cares? Glad they didn't waste time on any of that, the aliens were just walking McGuffins, and thats all they needed to be for the film.

Exactly. Jean is the hero and the villain of the film. She's also a Christ figure who takes on all the X-Men's sins (Xavier's egotism, Beast's vengeance, and her own bitterness) and cleanses them in a self-sacrificing cathartic moment where they're burned off by the Phoenix force. And then she ascends into the heavens!