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  1. #1
    Astonishing Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    Default Should John Constantine Be In The DC Universe?

    Around 2011 to 2015 I held the vehement belief that the Vertigo characters (John Constantine, Swamp Thing, Shade the Changing Man etc etc) should not be mixed up in the DC universe proper as they had been since 2011. My reasoning for this was partly irrational nostalgia for the 90s Vertigo titles, and a more practical line of thinking that the somewhat (grounded? realistic?) appeal of the DC Vertigo titles such as Sandman or Hellblazer would be squandered if their characters were inserted into the DCU, which is much more larger than life and fantastical.

    However I have changed my mind about mixing the Vertigo characters with the mainstream DC ones. I feel the mythology of a book like Animal Man or Swamp Thing being brought to the DC Universe, makes the Universe richer. Ultimately, nowadays I feel my prior belief of segregation between the Vertigo and DC universe book immature and laughable. John-Bloody-Constantine.

    No matter what, I feel like Constantine and the wider world of superheroes and aliens are fundamentally incompatible. In Hellblazer, (excluding issue 9 in which John ventured to Gotham City) you always had the sense that, in spite of the fact that God, Angel's, and Demons appeared, Constantine's stories in his title could not exist in the DC Universe. While the DC Universe is larger than life, bright, and hopeful (most of the time, heh...) the world of Vertigo Hellblazer was dirty, grim, and nihilistic in a sense. Whenever a new Hellblazer title comes out (New Fifty Two, DC You Rebirth), Constantine seems to just be a depressing shadow of his former self, in the glory days of Vertigo. I just don't think he can work in the DC Universe.

    Do you agree? Now I know there are some New Fifty Two Constantine fans on this thread. I am especially eager to see what they think of this issue.

  2. #2
    Spectacular Member Batknight's Avatar
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    I think John and Hellblazer can exist within the DCU. But he needs to be given an M-rated book that exists within its own little corner of the DCU that doesn't interact much with the wider universe. John was originally created in the DCU in Swamp Thing, I think it's where he belongs. Along with DC's other dark, magic characters like Swamp Thing, Deadman, Zatanna, Etrigan, The Spectre, and DC's other sorcerers. But to make it work, writers have to be allowed to tell more mature, adult stories with him and give him his own space away from the likes of Superman. He should be treated like how Sandman is treated. He'll show up in main books once and a while, but he's mainly got his own thing going on somewhere else.

  3. #3
    Astonishing Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batknight View Post
    I think John and Hellblazer can exist within the DCU. But he needs to be given an M-rated book that exists within its own little corner of the DCU that doesn't interact much with the wider universe. John was originally created in the DCU in Swamp Thing, I think it's where he belongs. Along with DC's other dark, magic characters like Swamp Thing, Deadman, Zatanna, Etrigan, The Spectre, and DC's other sorcerers. But to make it work, writers have to be allowed to tell more mature, adult stories with him and give him his own space away from the likes of Superman. He should be treated like how Sandman is treated. He'll show up in main books once and a while, but he's mainly got his own thing going on somewhere else.
    I'm fine with Constantine from time to time hanging out with the Spectre, Zatanna, Phantom Stranger and their ilk, as those characters are compatible with him, and some of them even appeared in his Vertigo series (Hellblazer 63). My main grevience with John Constantine in the wider DC Universe, is that I don't want him interacting with someone like Wonder Woman or Superman.

  4. #4
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    I'm fine with Constantine from time to time hanging out with the Spectre, Zatanna, Phantom Stranger and their ilk, as those characters are compatible with him, and some of them even appeared in his Vertigo series (Hellblazer 63). My main grevience with John Constantine in the wider DC Universe, is that I don't want him interacting with someone like Wonder Woman or Superman.
    How do you think it works in the current Justice League Dark?

    I'm not well-versed in 80s and 90s DC stuff, but I totally get that there is a tonal difference between, say, Constantine or Swamp Thing on one hand and Wonder Woman or Superman on the other. But in the case of the current JLD, it feels like Tynion so far is making that tonal difference act as a positive source of tension for the character interaction.

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    How do you think it works in the current Justice League Dark?
    Constantine does not belong on a team. Even though to Tynion's credit, John is not officially part of the Justice League Dark... yet.
    Last edited by Timothy Hunter; 10-13-2018 at 10:47 AM.

  6. #6
    Astonishing Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post

    I'm not well-versed in 80s and 90s DC stuff, but I totally get that there is a tonal difference between, say, Constantine or Swamp Thing on one hand and Wonder Woman or Superman on the other. But in the case of the current JLD, it feels like Tynion so far is making that tonal difference act as a positive source of tension for the character interaction.
    Also, while this is a good argument, I just think that John Constantine interacting with the super-heroic characters is silly. Like having a crossover between Vito Corleone and Santa Clause: Something is not right here.

  7. #7
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    Constantine does not belong on a team. Even though to Tynion's credit, John is not officially part of the Justice League Dark... yet.
    Yeah, but he is part of the story, and both Swamp Thing and Zatanna are part of the team. In a way, the last issue showed that they have two outsiders: Constantine who sorts of acts like hangers-on or consultant right now, and Diana as the leader but with an entirely different view of magic and how to approach it to the rest of the team (with the possible exception of Man-Bat).

    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    Also, while this is a good argument, I just think that John Constantine interacting with the super-heroic characters is silly. Like having a crossover between Vito Corleone and Santa Clause: Something is not right here.
    No problems there for me, what works for me given my personal preferences and knowledge of the characters and might not work for another person. So I guess the essence of my question would rather be if Constantine in JLD feels true to, or at least compatible with, your vision of your character?

  8. #8
    OUTRAGEOUS!! Thor-Ul's Avatar
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    I will put this in an example given by Alan Moore himself, quoting from memory, but something like this: "when writing comics (at least american superhero comics) is like the characters oflittle women being kidnapped by dr. Frankenstein to be rescued by a team of Sherlock Holmes and Hercules Poiroit". In superheroe comics, you have several genres mixed to create different kind of stories and yet they are its own genre, something new.

    Sometimes Superhero comics can be more mystics, or have more actionor go more scifi or with more social commentary or anything. Superhero comics are very flexible in that way. And Constantine was born in a time and in a title more in the line of horror, when thisn kind of comics where grow strong and later he went to a more adult line.

    Constantine is indeed a character than from a different kind of genre but we must remember than he was conceived to move in the DC universe. His first early appearrances were also in Crisis of Infinite earths, his relationships with the other magic users from Zatanna (can you imagine John without having a affair with Z?) to Phantom Stranger and he was suppously be a pivotal figure in Twilight of the superheroes. The Constantine than came later grew appart from the main DC, it is true, but in his origins hewas created to belong to that universe.

    The simple solution is the same than DC works better: have several versions of the character. One for Vertigo and one for the main DCU. Maybe someone will overlap the other, but if you keep the character coherence, it can works and to hell with the strict continuity.
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  9. #9
    Uncanny Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Animal Man, Swamp Thing, and John Constantine all began as characters within the DC universe; Vertigo didn't exist yet when their stories were first told.
    I have no problem with them being part of the regular DC universe today.

  10. #10
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batknight View Post
    I think John and Hellblazer can exist within the DCU. But he needs to be given an M-rated book that exists within its own little corner of the DCU that doesn't interact much with the wider universe. John was originally created in the DCU in Swamp Thing, I think it's where he belongs. Along with DC's other dark, magic characters like Swamp Thing, Deadman, Zatanna, Etrigan, The Spectre, and DC's other sorcerers. But to make it work, writers have to be allowed to tell more mature, adult stories with him and give him his own space away from the likes of Superman. He should be treated like how Sandman is treated. He'll show up in main books once and a while, but he's mainly got his own thing going on somewhere else.
    Exactly.

    My favorite mystic DC stories were pretty close to the DCU, but still seperate.

    The American Gothic story in Swamp Thing concluded with DC's top mystics and supernatural beings coming together to stop the 'ultimate evil'.
    This included Zatanna and Zatara, Sargon, Mento, Spectre, Dr. Fate and many others.
    And it was made more impactful by the characters having histories outside of Swamp Thing's book.

    Zatara sacrificing himself to save Zatanna, after her long search for him many years ago.
    Mento's fragile mind after the deaths of the original Doom Patrol.
    Even Baron Winters being the host sort of harkened back to him pulling various people together for a Night Force mission.

    And Books of Magic took almost all of the DCU's mystic community and made one large tapestry. Which built on things set up or hinted at earlier in regular comics.

    However... mystic characters and supernatural beings need writers that won't treat them like common superheroes.
    Their motivation doesn't drive them to stop purse snatchers or jewelry thieves. They're more often than not concerned with the big picture. And they may do something that either makes no sense or could seem counter-productive to normal people because they can't see beyond the visible reality.

    And these types of characters may have the power of the universe at their fingertips, but they usually try diplomacy or reasoning as everything to them is more about power struggles and influence, rather than flashy direct confrontations.
    Matter of fact, most of the flashy superhero-ish direct 'pew-pew' stuff is more the forte of mystic villains than heroes, where they act more impulsively, driven by their emotions or a desire to cause direct pain.

    Forgot to add what originally was my intended post, which is that Grell's Green Arrow and O'Neil's Question is how I would do Constantine. A Mature Readers title set in the DCU but not involved with crossovers. He could still appear in events or even make guest appearances, but his title wouldn't directly cross over with any non-mature titles.
    Last edited by Lee Stone; 10-13-2018 at 12:53 PM.
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  11. #11

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    I think that characters like Constantine, Swamp Thing, Doom Patrol, etc. are such that they could fit into BOTH DCU and Vertigo.

    There's nothing wrong with Constantine on JL Dark and also having a solo Vertigo book that is only part of the Vertigo shared universe and whose stories are NOT reflected in the DCU. However, I don't think these characters could support a DCU ongoing and a Vertigo ongoing simultaneously.

    If Constantine or the other shared characters have a solo published by, say, Vertigo, then they should only guest star in the DCU or be part of a team. But it should always be understood that the Vertigo Constantine and the DCU Constantine are not the same character with the same comics canon in order to keep the mature audience separate. As long as the DCU and Vertigo don't contradict each other in terms of things that are essential to the character, it shouldn't get confusing.

  12. #12
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    not in my opinion.

    He was better served off in his own world, but from a company stand point I get the appeal I'm just not a big fan of it
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  13. #13
    Astonishing Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Animal Man, Swamp Thing, and John Constantine all began as characters within the DC universe; Vertigo didn't exist yet when their stories were first told.
    I have no problem with them being part of the regular DC universe today.
    I used to have the belief that all of the Vertigo character should be divorced from the DCU, but as I said in my original post, I have outgrown that mindset.

  14. #14
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    I agree- it's weird to see him on Legends of Tomorrow- it would be great if someone could bring back his own TV series and solo book.

  15. #15
    (Formerly ilash) Ilan Preskovsky's Avatar
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    I'm cool with him being in the DCU but he should largely stick to his own corner and have his own Mature-rated book. I'm fine with him interacting with DC's many occult characters but team-ups with, say, Superman or Green Lantern should be rare.
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