What non-cosmic can beat Dr. Doom?

[Sharpandpointies]

Sorry to jump in, but just to state my own opinions on one small point: Winning 10/10 doesn't always mean you "destroyed" or stomped your opponent.

Agreed, it doesn't mean you 'destroyed' your opponent. On Rumbles (old board), we always used 'curbstomp' to indicate 10/10, but I didn't use that. I used 'destroy', and shouldn't have. Mea culpa.

Strange does not twiddle his finger to make Doom go poof.

Just to note, I was perfectly happy to amend my comment to what sits in my post, above. I feel Strange is the clear winner to the point of 10/10, we would have named that a 'curbstomp' on the old board, but throwing in qualifiers like 'destroys' wouldn't necessarily be correct in this case. And, I figure, has regrettably irked some people (and yes, I am saying 'it was a mistake, I'm wrong about 'destroys'' if that's not clear).

Because clarity is good.

[The Arbiter]

Agreed, it doesn't mean you 'destroyed' your opponent. On Rumbles (old board), we always used 'curbstomp' to indicate 10/10, but I didn't use that. I used 'destroy', and shouldn't have. Mea culpa.

Strange does not twiddle his finger to make Doom go poof.

Just to note, I was perfectly happy to amend my comment to what sits in my post, above. I feel Strange is the clear winner to the point of 10/10, we would have named that a 'curbstomp' on the old board, but throwing in qualifiers like 'destroys' wouldn't necessarily be correct in this case. And, I figure, has regrettably irked some people (and yes, I am saying 'it was a mistake, I'm wrong about 'destroys'' if that's not clear).

Because clarity is good.

I don't particularly feel you need to apologize! Lots of people on the forum would have no issue with that word describing the situation, myself included. =)

I just wanted to clarify for K Von Doom what you probably meant regardless of the language. Strange would have to try is all, despite the inevitable eventuality of the outcome.

I've been "triggered" before so to speak (not claiming anyone here has been) with regards to wording. Someone said "speed equal- Orion stomps WW" but by stomp they meant "he has to go all out, it's a fight, but I can't see him losing".

Wordz iz hard :P

Edit: honestly it's been a very enjoyable discussion to read.

[Sharpandpointies]

Stomp has usually meant 10/10, at least as long as I can recall. It's hard to say it's not a stomp where -- barring some real weirdness happening that isn't in the context of a bloodlusted Rumbles arena match -- someone is taking every single fight, even if they have to work at it.

But 'utterly destroys' and so forth...that's a qualifier that's pretty dependant on one person completely wasting the other without effort, in my opinion, and fundamentally incorrect in this case. So I shouldn't have used it.

[k von doom]

It is, in fact, a fight-ender spell. The Crimson Bands are generally viewed as that kind of thing, versus Bolts of Bedevilment which were kind of the back-and-forth stuff for mages at the time. Whether or not it would KO someone is immaterial -- it ends the fight. Strange, in the past, has used them as such, has been very wary of such things even when summoned by a lesser mage, and has himself been massively messed up by them.

It also happens to be one of the strongest spells around for getting someone out of the way. If we're going that route, then it seems just as likely that Doom simply didn't feel it was a good idea to flat-out off someone in the middle of the Vishanti's test. I understand your perspective, here, btw.

I agree that the Crimson Bands work well as a fight ender for someone who doesn't want to use lethal force. Flat out just throwing the match is very un-Doom-like so you simply have to weigh which one's more likely - that Doom didn't want to kill Dr Strange or Doom cast a reversible spell so he gets what he wants in the end.

I agree, that had Strange been taken out (somehow) and one of the other sorcerers we saw was the one facing Doom (again, somehow), Doom would very likely have won.

Which kind of supports the idea that the other sorcerers weren't anything special. Doom, at the time, was basically still a neophyte getting by on his armor analyzing spells. He was the only guy who made it through alongside Strange. Not exactly a great showing for the other sorcerers, who showed absolutely nothing special during the conflict, were lousy at protecting themselves, and (in at least one case) couldn't even use dimensional entreaties.

Again, we had sorcerers there who didn't even know how to summon the energies of entities or extradimensional places. That places them below Mordo's flunkies. Sure, they were magic users, but their overall, demonstrated skill level was pretty abysmal by the standards of Strange, given some of them were below people two notches below him. And zero name-level people.

I'm not saying they were stumbling buffoons, but one doesn't need to be a stumbling buffoon to be a pretty loooong way from Strange, from Mordo (who is a doofus, but undeniably skilled at magic), from Mordo's flunkies, from Clea when she was an apprentice (where, despite her predilection toward needing to be rescued by Stephen, did occasionally call upon extradimensional entities), from other actual character-level sorcerers in Marvel.

And again - this is an important point - Doom wasn't taking those sorcerers out left and right. He was taking out zombified people (the sorcerers, yes, but AFTER they had been zombified, if that's a word) who seemed to have no defences and just the ability to fire the zombifying bolts of energy.

Waaay too much use of the word 'zombify' up there. ^_^ Apologies.

Lord really knows why the writer didn't use any other lesser named sorcerers in the contest like Bro Voodoo, Shaman, Dr Druid... etc; which made the contest seem like a college kid playing football against a bunch of pre-schoolers. I'm simply going by the statement that the invitation to the contest could only heard by magic users above Dr Doom's level - judging by how clear the invitation was to both of them. That Mordo or Agatha Harkness decided not to answer the Vishanti's invitation leads me to believe that they just went "What's the point? Dr Strange will be there" so ended up not attending. So we're left with non-descript, unnamed mooks who may or may not be higher level than Dr Doom. I'm just guessing that, most likely, a lot are higher level than Doom because what are the chances that they're all Doom's level? There was one leather clad chick who hadn't used any non-Vishanti spells before whom Dr Strange tried to help; I'd chalk that up to her simply specialising in one school of magic.

Regarding the zombified sorcerers, these aren't the slow moving zombies from the movies. There was one instance where a sorcerer was thinking (I think it was a thought balloon) to hide behind another who had already been frozen but the zombified sorcerer turned around and answered, responding to the thoughts of the previous sorcerer and blasted him away. So, not only were the zombified sorcerers thinking of their own volition, they were also mind readers... somehow. And I'd say there were around 30 participants there yet the battle lasted hours (days even, someone said), so this wasn't 'zap you're dead' and it's over in five minutes. At the very least, the sorcerers and the zombified ones had durability and stamina to burn. For every one Doom took down, Strange dispatched two, so there'd be a tally of Doom 10 and Strange 20, roughly, of nondescript durable magical nobodies.

I will check this tonight, but again, the servant's theories don't match up with Doom's thoughts -- in his own head, not whatever he's telling other people which may or may not be the truth (because Doom? He does lie, mislead, and obfuscate).

That's an interesting point about the tech, and one I'll need to consider. Will check on it tonight.

If we take the servant's words as simple lies then there wouldn't have been a purpose to putting it in the story. I believe the servant was speaking on behalf of Doom because the villain expositioning at the end of the story doesn't make for a good ending to the tale; and also reduces the mystery of whether everything was planned by Doom or not.

Regarding Doom winning.

So, my big problem (which I haven't made clear) with the whole "Doom was second place for Sorcerer Supreme" is LESS about the idea that Doom might have won if Strange didn't. While I take issue with the idea that he was 'second place' in terms of some kind of ranking (and still do), I'm not going to argue that had Strange somehow messed up, Doom couldn't possibly have 'won' the test. Had Strange messed up, Doom would have been the most viable person to get through the test. I'm iffy that he could have done so, as it required Strange to use his astral form (which, at that point, I'm doubting Doom could pull off), head in dodging all kinds of blasts (Doom's shielding of his physical body wouldn't have been sufficient if Strange's wasn't), and use the Eye to discern how to finish the test (Doom MIGHT be able to manage this with tech scanners, but what tech scanners could tell him 'the way to end the test is to actually ask for it', I don't know), and actually touch the crystal, but it's possible.

The thing is that people use it as some kind of proof that Doom is second only to Strange. He certainly wasn't at the time, as the entire test was filled up with a bunch of no-name nobodies, as noted above. None of them showed any high degree of sorcerous ability (by high degree, I mean capacities sufficient to be more than a tiny blip on Strange's radar). Take Mordo, as an example; based on what was shown, he wouldn't have a problem obliterating any of the sorcerers in that test not named Strange.

So while I don't feel Doom 'came in second' (I feel he basically passed stage one, that's all), you make some good points on the matter and I understand that perspective.

I agree with you on this point. I don't consider Dr Doom to have come second place in the contest; and he's not next in line for the title. I don't think the contest uses the same format as Ms Universe where if Strange was unworthy of the Sorcerer Supreme title, it goes automatically to Dr Doom. I think of it more like a 100m race where 8 of the athletes were disqualified at the 50m mark, Doom broke his leg at the 80m mark and Dr Strange finished it - Dr Doom doesn't get a silver medal. The only way Dr Doom came in second is if you were to gauge how long each individual lasted.

I'm iffy on how Doom would have gone on the second part of the contest, freeing the Aged Genghis. Just as a note though, when the zombified sorcerers were all taken out, the blasts from the crystal stopped so Dr Doom wouldn't have needed to dodge anymore while he was trying to figure out how to continue. I mention that Dr Doom would then be protected by the Crimson sphere in my argument because he wouldn't have known at the time, what to expect. However I do believe Doom is intelligent enough to figure out how to free the Aged Genghis; I'd give him credit for working out the boon part of the prize because he stayed to compete, not for the title but for the boon. That's neither here nor there because in 99.999999% of realities, Dr Strange triumphed in the second part.

So without getting into possibly inflammatory qualifiers like 'destroys', curbstomps, whatever, I'll put it more clearly.

I personally feel that Classic Strange (without prep) beats Doom (without prep) 10/10, given the disparity in their feats. There is simply too much of a power gap for Doom to overcome without a gimme or prep.

Unless I'm way behind on my Doom information, and he has recently been blowing up planets with his walk-around stuff, or beating up Heralds, or the like. ^_^

Things change with prep, of course. Both of them have ridiculous prep stuff.

Good conversation, by the way. Some good points. Too bad we're operating here 12 hours apart, makes it sloooow.

My Doom information was last updated just before the Marquis of Death fiasco so Dr Doom from that time vs Classic Dr Strange; I still see Strange winning all the matches, although none of the battles will be a walkover. I'd equate it to a tennis match that goes 7-6 7-5 7-5; it's a straight sets match but those sets were competitive as hell.

[big_adventure]

I would like to disagree here: Classic Strange does indeed "destroy" Doom. Here's the logic: Classic Strange is a planet buster. And his autoshields resist (perhaps not no sell or tank, but resist at least a couple without failing) that level of stuff (or at least close) as well. Doom can neither tank nor dish planet buster stuff without prep. So honestly, this is a rollover.

[daBronzeBomma]

Can a Green Lantern compete with a fully-armed but unprepped Dr. Doom in a standard Rumbles setting?

Is the end result of the Rumble the same, regardless of who the ring-slinger is?

From Alan Scott to Hal Jordan to Guy Gardner to John Stewart to Kyle Rayner to Jade Scott to Simon Baz to Jessica Cruz, is there a difference between these 8 vs Victor?

[The Arbiter]

Can a Green Lantern compete with a fully-armed but unprepped Dr. Doom in a standard Rumbles setting?

Is the end result of the Rumble the same, regardless of who the ring-slinger is?

From Alan Scott to Hal Jordan to Guy Gardner to John Stewart to Kyle Rayner to Jade Scott to Simon Baz to Jessica Cruz, is there a difference between these 8 vs Victor?

A standard veteran lantern should just mega explode the Arena at the bell.

If Ovoid takes even a second past instant to cast, Doom should be finished. I'm leery on it working on the upper echelon of Lanterns regardless just because of ring auto defenses, inherent lantern willpower, and the often construct created psi blockers some of them have busted out.

[daBronzeBomma]

A standard veteran lantern should just mega explode the Arena at the bell.

If Ovoid takes even a second past instant to cast, Doom should be finished. I'm leery on it working on the upper echelon of Lanterns regardless just because of ring auto defenses, inherent lantern willpower, and the often construct created psi blockers some of them have busted out.

Ah, I see.

So, to recap: under standard Rumbles settings, Dr. Doom beats the likes of the Hulk, Lexosuit Luthor, and Iron Man, but falls to the likes of Green Lantern, Thor, Superman, and Dr. Strange (Dr. Fate probably is here too).

Presumably, then, Doom also falls to Shazam (the hero formerly known as Captain Marvel), Wonder Woman, and the Martian Manhunter, since they're all Class 100 flying bricks with superspeed. Any of the Flashes are too much as well.

Dang it, who IS an even match for Dr. Doom in the "fair fight" setup of Rumbles?

Aquaman, with his trident as standard gear?

I mean, there's a fair mix of strength, durability, magic, and psionics to work with in him, right?

[Pendaran]

Dang it, who IS an even match for Dr. Doom in the "fair fight" setup of Rumbles?

Characters with weird esoteric exploits don't often have even matches. Generally they'll either lose big or win big with little middle ground.

[k von doom]

Dang it, who IS an even match for Dr. Doom in the "fair fight" setup of Rumbles?

Overwhelming Doom's defenses at super speed is the best way. If the opponent operates at regular human speed, Doom has a mathematical chance.

[Sharpandpointies]

I agree that the Crimson Bands work well as a fight ender for someone who doesn't want to use lethal force. Flat out just throwing the match is very un-Doom-like so you simply have to weigh which one's more likely - that Doom didn't want to kill Dr Strange or Doom cast a reversible spell so he gets what he wants in the end.

Again, I'm cool with someone having that interpretation. It just doesn't fit with my perspective based on what I'm looking at and reading.

Lord really knows why the writer didn't use any other lesser named sorcerers in the contest like Bro Voodoo, Shaman, Dr Druid... etc; which made the contest seem like a college kid playing football against a bunch of pre-schoolers. I'm simply going by the statement that the invitation to the contest could only heard by magic users above Dr Doom's level - judging by how clear the invitation was to both of them. That Mordo or Agatha Harkness decided not to answer the Vishanti's invitation leads me to believe that they just went "What's the point? Dr Strange will be there" so ended up not attending. So we're left with non-descript, unnamed mooks who may or may not be higher level than Dr Doom. I'm just guessing that, most likely, a lot are higher level than Doom because what are the chances that they're all Doom's level? There was one leather clad chick who hadn't used any non-Vishanti spells before whom Dr Strange tried to help; I'd chalk that up to her simply specialising in one school of magic.

Being better than Doom himself during the start of the tournament isn't something great. At all. Doom was barely functional with combat magic at the start, getting by on dodging and tech, and flat-out states that his armor's analysis of everyone else's use of magic has shot him years ahead in terms of his own magic.

Being better than Doom doesn't mean they were anywhere near Mordo's level, or even the level of Mordo's flunkies.

The young woman with whom Strange was talking wasn't just incapable of calling on the Vishanti. She couldn't call upon the Seraphim, either, nor the other one Strange mentioned (neither of which were of the Vishanti). Basically, zero ability to call upon dimensional beings, which (back then) was basically the good stuff of Marvel Sorcery.

Regarding the zombified sorcerers, these aren't the slow moving zombies from the movies. There was one instance where a sorcerer was thinking (I think it was a thought balloon) to hide behind another who had already been frozen but the zombified sorcerer turned around and answered, responding to the thoughts of the previous sorcerer and blasted him away. So, not only were the zombified sorcerers thinking of their own volition, they were also mind readers... somehow. And I'd say there were around 30 participants there yet the battle lasted hours (days even, someone said), so this wasn't 'zap you're dead' and it's over in five minutes. At the very least, the sorcerers and the zombified ones had durability and stamina to burn. For every one Doom took down, Strange dispatched two, so there'd be a tally of Doom 10 and Strange 20, roughly, of nondescript durable magical nobodies.

Going to go back and read, but I seriously doubt it was actually days. You're right about the thought reading, but that's the extent of it. We see 'zaps'. That's all. We don't see them using spells, their zaps turn other sorcerers into zombies so it's the same attack, etc.

And that's about it.

If we take the servant's words as simple lies then there wouldn't have been a purpose to putting it in the story. I believe the servant was speaking on behalf of Doom because the villain expositioning at the end of the story doesn't make for a good ending to the tale; and also reduces the mystery of whether everything was planned by Doom or not.

I believe they put it in there to give that idea, because frankly, up to that point there's no indication. And then it's left a mystery if that's correct or not.

I agree with you on this point. I don't consider Dr Doom to have come second place in the contest; and he's not next in line for the title. I don't think the contest uses the same format as Ms Universe where if Strange was unworthy of the Sorcerer Supreme title, it goes automatically to Dr Doom. I think of it more like a 100m race where 8 of the athletes were disqualified at the 50m mark, Doom broke his leg at the 80m mark and Dr Strange finished it - Dr Doom doesn't get a silver medal. The only way Dr Doom came in second is if you were to gauge how long each individual lasted.

That's a great analogy, actually. Good one.

I'm iffy on how Doom would have gone on the second part of the contest, freeing the Aged Genghis. Just as a note though, when the zombified sorcerers were all taken out, the blasts from the crystal stopped so Dr Doom wouldn't have needed to dodge anymore while he was trying to figure out how to continue. I mention that Dr Doom would then be protected by the Crimson sphere in my argument because he wouldn't have known at the time, what to expect. However I do believe Doom is intelligent enough to figure out how to free the Aged Genghis; I'd give him credit for working out the boon part of the prize because he stayed to compete, not for the title but for the boon. That's neither here nor there because in 99.999999% of realities, Dr Strange triumphed in the second part.

That's fair enough.

My Doom information was last updated just before the Marquis of Death fiasco so Dr Doom from that time vs Classic Dr Strange; I still see Strange winning all the matches, although none of the battles will be a walkover. I'd equate it to a tennis match that goes 7-6 7-5 7-5; it's a straight sets match but those sets were competitive as hell.

And that's fair as well. For myself, Doom's defences force Stephen to pull out his good stuff, but that's it. He just can't match the depth and breadth of Stephen's power, both offensive and defensive.

[Sharpandpointies]

So, I went back and read T&T. Going to revisit a couple of points, here.

The most important is the idea that Doom basically threw the Sorcerer Supreme contest. There's no evidence of that, even in the discussion at the end of the book. Strange and the servant are talking specifically about their little trip to Mephisto's domain, and what Doom did there, as potentially being Doom's plan from the beginning.

'Boris, he could have betrayed me to Mephisto, but he did not. By his actions, Doom gave his mother the chance to find her own redemption...he beat the devil at his own game! Could he have planned all this?'

'Perhaps. I should have seen that the master would want more than simply to rescue his mother. He would want to win free and clear, beholden to no one.'

My feeling is that Doom went into the tournament with the idea that he could get something to help him free his mother's soul. If he became Sorcerer Supreme, this tends to come with A - a chunk more power, due to the artifacts that the SS receives; and B - people wanting to curry favour with the SS, who he could get to assist with this situation. And if he lost? He'd still make contacts, still maybe get something out of it, etc. It's a rare situation that Doom cannot turn to his advantage. There's zero to say, however (other than the term 'all' in Strange's comment, which seems to me to refer to 'all' of the business in Mephisto's realm).

But his big plan was the whole business in Mephisto's realm, which was...pretty convoluted.

Regarding the Zombies - their zaps are the exact same thing as the crystal's, they make the people they hit into more Zombies. They don't show any other real abilities (other than the possible mind-reading, and seeing as they're controlled by the forces of the Vishanti, this is hardly surprising). They're certainly not 'high level sorcerers' at that point, that Doom defeats; they're zombies with limited abilities. Doom is a great fighter and so forth, and his armor and its automatic reactions are helping him (explicitly noted).

Next, when Doom attacks Stephen, there's no indication in his words, his actions, or even his personal thoughts that he's trying to lose. He's wiping out the zombies, and thinks '...it takes every bit of my will to deal with these entranced fools!' Then the next thing he thinks is 'I must not slack, a greater challenge yet awaits me...and he is neither entranced, nor a fool!'

He attacks Stephen, saying 'I regret I must crush such an artist', and no, he doesn't lead with the Crimson Bands, he starts by trying to zap him with a Bolt of Bedevilment.

Stephen - Doom, stop! There is no need!

Doom - You are wrong. There is great need. None shall keep me from my goal!

Then he goes with the Crimson Bands when that doesn't work.

This, to me, isn't a guy who is planning on throwing the fight. I'll also note that Doom wasn't using killing attacks on the Zombified Sorcerers, either. In fact, he explicitly uses some kind of binding spell on one of them to take them out of the fight (not the Crimson Bands, but it's definitely tying the guy up rather than zapping him down). So him using his best binding spell on Strange is perfectly in-keeping with him being serious, here.

Nit-pick detail - the crystal is still throwing bolts at anyone who comes closer to it, because we see this after Doom is taken out of the fight and Stephen is explicitly forced to switch to astral form because '...the crystal's mystic bolts fly too swiftly for flesh and blood to overcome!'

Nit-pick detail - they weren't fighting for days or hours. It's what is shown on-panel. The days or hours thing comes from the entranced sorcerers being...entranced, and foggy about everything.

[Sorcerer 1] Is it over? But we had just begun --!

[Sorcerer 2] You are mad! We were conjuring for hours!

[S3] Days, I thought...

[S4] What is time to such as [the Vishanti]?

Seeing as there seem to be -- and I'm overestimating -- twenty other Sorcerers at most, and Strange is dropping them when they're Zombified while thinking to himself and speaking to Doom, I'm particular to the idea that it happens rather quickly.

Nit-pick to myself. The young woman in the test is basically swearing by the Vishanti, like an 'God help me, my shields are getting busted!' (her exact words are 'Vishanti protect me, my shields --!' when they're cracking). Pretty common thing among sorcerers and not an incantation. Strange basically chides her on this, saying 'look, praying to the Vishanti isn't going to help because this is their test.' He goes on to tell her to call upon the Seraphim or the Faltine, and she says 'But I've never-' and gets zapped. So, that's the context.

Again, this is stuff that solidifies my own POV on the matter. If anyone has a different interpretation, that's up to them. Mileage, it varies. ^_^