What non-cosmic can beat Dr. Doom?

[Beadle]

Thor has also resisted Phoenix Rachel, so maybe it's less a telepathy resistance thing and more of a god vs cosmic being thing.

But both Emma and Rachel should be able to telepathically do him up even without the Phoenix Force. So it mostly just sounds like dubious outliers.

[k von doom]

Wasn't Doom pretty close to becoming Sorcerer Supreme himself? His mastery over magic is no joke either.

He wasn't. That gets exaggerated and noted without context so much that people have gotten this idea that Doom came in second place or something (I'm not saying you're doing that, I'm saying I've seen people put it forward enough without context that it has become something of a meme).

I'd have to disagree with Sharp's answer to this question. But I am also of the view that Doom's 'coming second place' has been blown out of proportion; Doom was just the second last man standing - so to speak. Now, read to the end of T&T and it's inferred that everything went according to Doom's plan. I may be misremembering this next bit as it's been a while since I read it but Doom states that 'titles he has plenty of' - so being called 'Sorcerer Supreme' wouldn't have been of much value to him. The battle was for a title because when Dr Strange wins and the crowd cheers for him he then says he simply wishes to be called 'Master of the Mystic Arts' until the Vishati state otherwise (so there were no other prizes, no Eye of Agamotto or Book of Vishanti).

The boon was what Doom wanted from the contest. Doom knew he needed help freeing his mother's soul from hell; and after succeeding in their mission Strange asks why Doom didn't simply ask Strange for help, and Doom answers in the only way Doom can. Doom threw the match against Strange and purposely miscast a spell so he loses. Dr Doom was replicating (robotic was the word used, but that doesn't mean inaccurate) the movements and incantations of other sorcerers, as well as Dr Strange, which included binding spells (as Dr Strange isn't the killing type). What are the chances that Doom suddenly miscasts a spell he was casting just minutes ago? A rebuttal to this would be 'this is the first time Doom cast the Crimson Bands' to which I'd say, why would Doom cast a high level spell on Dr Strange for the first time ever in this situation? Doom was taking out high level sorcerers left and right then to sneak attack Dr Strange he'd cast a spell he hasn't cast before? It makes no sense. It was purposely miscast as he had nothing more to gain by going further in the contest. And this is why I say that Doom was close to becoming Sorcerer Supreme, within the context of the story. If Doom had an actual reason to win it, he wouldn't have lost in such a basic manner and pulled out all the stops - tech included - which would get him the win against any other sorcerer besides Dr Strange.

*Doom would have detested winning the contest as it's not in his nature to grant favours where he doesn't get anything in return. It's a good thing that nice guy Strange won. Dr Doom outright states that Strange clearly bests him in magic so if Doom wanted to win the contest he would have cooperated with Dr Strange, as Strange offered to do so.

[Dalak]

It's very explicit - he CAN "jack" the power to an extent, it's just that, like the Power Cosmic and many other things that he can steal, he can't create or manipulate it without stealing it. So anyway, read the issues and come back.

Just another energy from another source, nothing about only Gods can have it or anything other than Odinforce. They can also still be killed like many others called 'immortal', and I'm sure they didn't create their worshipers, empower an entire church of cleric with magic, require faith/belief to function, or any other caveat of being a divine being other than 'Lots of Power'.

As for the spell, it was "permanent" for the arc and no effort at all until she just decided not to do it anymore (or another writer forgot about it). Also, how many of those specific villains has Chuckie read minds of since then, actually? I mean, I'm relatively sure that everyone forgot about it, but X-types don't face those guys often, and Magneto, who was definitely generally a villain at the time, was placed on the hero team by big B.

Checking into it there were fewer baddies on the list than I thought, but as long as one of them has had a psychic event since then it still wasn't permanent.

Two points: she detected him and no-sold him with no spell at all, explicitly saying it was because she was a goddess and he was a human. The extremely casual spell was just to protect all of the non-gods in the room.

Very few non-named Asgardians have mental feats at all. Balder has chucked off magical mind control. Thor has chucked off, with verying degrees of effort, time and help, both magical and psi mind control. Odin has engaged in TP battles with Galactus, and engged in battle with entities for whom TP is a general part of the combat package (Celestials, Eternals, Uni-Mind, etc.). Karnilla, Amora, Loki, Hela and Lorelei have used magical mind control, but have generally not been subjected to it that I recall.

What about Volstagg, Fandral, Sif or other named folks? I asked for folks that weren't the best and you bring up ODIN ffs. Balder's also been whammied too, though others would have to say if he's resisted it more often (As opposed to being slave to it for a while and finally breaking free). If the Enchantress can do this simply because she's a goddess at least one other has to have done it to even hope to apply it to other Asgardians.

Another question: Has Enchantress ever done this before/since? I specifically am asking about Mental Whammies bouncing effortlessly as you describe tossed off as Goddess Stuff.

E: Just noticed this conversation going on in another thread too, including a Mod Ruling. Wow.

[daBronzeBomma]

So, based on the various replies, is it fair to say that to beat an un-prepped but fully geared Dr. Doom, one must be more powerful than Iron Man but less so than Thor or Superman?

[Pendaran]

So, based on the various replies, is it fair to say that to beat an un-prepped but fully geared Dr. Doom, one must be more powerful than Iron Man but less so than Thor or Superman?

That's not the worst take.

[numberthirty]

I’m pretty comfortable with Shaman Nate Grey dismantling Doom on an atomic level.

Yep.

He's probably got a zillion different ways to take that one.

Probably Qabiri too, if being a citizen of a more advanced planet Earth doesn't bump him up to "Cosmic" level.

[daBronzeBomma]

That's not the worst take.

Ah, well, let's run with it then: what ideal opponent for Doom occupies that space between Iron Man (high end technologist) and Thor/Superman (Solid Class 100 Brick with Something Extra like Magic or Speed)?

Can an unprepped/full-geared Doom withstand the Hulk (no magic or superspeed)?

Or Pre-Crisis Lexosuit Luthor (Kryptonite is useless on Doom)?

Someone else entirely different?

[Pendaran]

I wouldn't say that Doom can withstand the Pre Crisis Lexosuit on physicality, but then again that suit is going to do jack to protect Lex from getting zorched in the soul or something, so.

The Hulk would depend on what incarnation of the Hulk. Stuff like the bands and neuro disruptors and soul punching magics all stacked onto each other should be unfortunate to deal with though.

[Sharpandpointies]

Now, read to the end of T&T and it's inferred that everything went according to Doom's plan. I may be misremembering this next bit as it's been a while since I read it but Doom states that 'titles he has plenty of' - so being called 'Sorcerer Supreme' wouldn't have been of much value to him. The battle was for a title because when Dr Strange wins and the crowd cheers for him he then says he simply wishes to be called 'Master of the Mystic Arts' until the Vishati state otherwise (so there were no other prizes, no Eye of Agamotto or Book of Vishanti).

Absolutely.

The boon was what Doom wanted from the contest. Doom knew he needed help freeing his mother's soul from hell; and after succeeding in their mission Strange asks why Doom didn't simply ask Strange for help, and Doom answers in the only way Doom can. Doom threw the match against Strange and purposely miscast a spell so he loses.

However, Doom flat-out states that he's learning thanks to his armor throughout the fight, and before the armor kicks in with that, he's barely using magic at all -- dodging, in fact.

Given Doom's lack of mastery during the test, and the fact that Stephen needed to train the unholy crap out of him to get him up to a point where Stephen figured he was at least good enough to go into Mephisto's lair, I don't subscribe to the above idea. There's nothing in the book to show that Doom actually threw a lousy spell on purpose. It's perfectly in-keeping with his demonstrated skill in that book -- including his own, personal, private thoughts. And if he wanted the boon so badly -- which he did -- but was willing to 'throw the match to try to get it', it would have made MORE sense for Doom to have assisted Stephen WIN the match, and as such guarantee he got the boon...because had Stephen failed to win, Doom would have ended up with nothing.

One might argue that Doom cast the spell as best he could knowing full well that Strange would turn it around on him, and THAT was the plan. Which, again, doesn't make sense with all of the later explanation.

Basically, it boils down to 'If Doom wanted someone's help saving his mother, and felt the boon was the best way to get it so he would be free and clear of owing someone something, then why not actually HELP that person win the match rather than trying to attack them and getting booted from the match? At least then he would have not only helped them (giving them a better chance of getting through the test, and thus giving Doom a boon), but potentially leaving them feeling like they owed HIM.'

I feel that if we're going to go with the theories of Doom's servant (unsubstantiated, if making a good twist) as proof Doom could have won, we must also examine those theories in light of what was actually demonstrated in the story (including Doom's own thought processes as the test continued) and see if the theories hold water.

Heck, Doom even has a little mental monologue right before he attacks Stephen with the Crimson Bands, thinking something along the lines of 'Okay, so I made it through that...now I'm up against Strange, and this is going to be ten times harder!' If he were planning to throw the fight, I find it hard to believe those would be his thoughts.

I personally found it much more likely that he went into the match with the idea he could use whatever happened to his advantage dealing with his mother's situation, and once he found out abou the boon, the plan crystalized. Including the idea of betraying Strange and then saving him, so that he wouldn't 'owe' Strange anything.

Dr Doom was replicating (robotic was the word used, but that doesn't mean inaccurate) the movements and incantations of other sorcerers, as well as Dr Strange, which included binding spells (as Dr Strange isn't the killing type). What are the chances that Doom suddenly miscasts a spell he was casting just minutes ago?

For starters, Doom didn't 100% miscast it. It worked. It just wasn't perfectly done, which allowed Stephen -- the far better Sorcerer -- to turn it back on Doom. Stephen notes that.

Second, Doom wasn't taking out 'high level Sorcerers'. He was taking out a bunch of people who A - were sorcerers, but we've never heard anything about (edit: see below0, who had become: B - dudes who were explicitly zombified and using bolts of energy similar to what had turned them into the mind-controlled zombies. Not their magic. Not all of their skills. No defenses. They're even depicted as being less-than all there, given how one of them talks (kind of...like this...).

Edit: As an aside, these other sorcerers were nowhere near Stephen's level of ability even before they become zombified. Not just 'not on Stephen's level', but nowhere even close. Stephen tells one of them to call upon dimensional entities to strengthen their shields (Seraphim, specifically noted) or to help in some other way (mentions another common dimensional entreaty, can't remember which), and that person says 'But I've never -!' right before one of the zombies takes her out with a zap. Basically, we see a lot of very basic shielding and bolts of bedevilment, nothing more, and one of the sorcerers summoned to the test flat-out admits she has never really done the high-level stuff.

Contrast this to Baron Mordo's flunkies, who are below Mordo in power, who is himself below Stephen in power. Mordo's flunkies don't have any problems calling on Cytorrak and other dimensional entities/places, and quite effectively to boot.

So the other sorcerers weren't just not on Stephen's level...and not on Mordo's level...they weren't on the level of Mordo's flunkies. ^_^

I would say these other sorcerers in the test would also be nowhere near current Doom's level of ability...but the Doom depicted during the test wasn't that great at magic, yet.

Third, Doom wasn't using the Crimson Bands before that. He's not shown doing so at all. So, yeah, maybe first time he was casting it...which indicates his level of sorcery as compared to Stephen's, as people far below Stephen have used the Crimson Bands much more effectively (again, Mordo's flunkies).

Whether or not it was Doom's plan to get the boon from the beginning -- which is theorized by a servant of his, NOT stated by Doom, and makes an interesting twist -- my points above are right there in the story, including in Doom's own thought processes as he fights.

Heck, even after intensive training with Strange -- really intensive, Strange not holding back -- Doom flat-out states that Stephen's mastery of magic far exceeds his own. This occurs well-after the actual test for the Sorcerer Supreme.

And I seriously doubt the Vishanti would have awarded the title to Doom if he used tech to win. They were looking for the Sorcerer Supreme, not some guy who could use tech.

[Hypestyle]

Luke Cage for sure. Doom cheated on the money for an assignment.

https://www.cbr.com/the-wrong-side-l...s-doctor-doom/

[k von doom]

Basically, it boils down to 'If Doom wanted someone's help saving his mother, and felt the boon was the best way to get it so he would be free and clear of owing someone something, then why not actually HELP that person win the match rather than trying to attack them and getting booted from the match? At least then he would have not only helped them (giving them a better chance of getting through the test, and thus giving Doom a boon), but potentially leaving them feeling like they owed HIM.'

Reason one is outside the story. It would have made for a dull story if Dr Doom was just helping Dr Strange during the contest; and would have made Dr Strange's claim to the title of Sorcerer Supreme rather hollow as Doom would have been seen as stepping aside for Dr Strange to claim it. Second is, Doom didn't cast an offensive spell at Strange, it was a binding spell that could be reversed; and if there was someone who knew how to reverse the Crimson Bands it would be Strange. And Dr Doom didn't get booted from the match, he was rendered immobile but now protected by a Crimson shield.

I feel that if we're going to go with the theories of Doom's servant (unsubstantiated, if making a good twist) as proof Doom could have won, we must also examine those theories in light of what was actually demonstrated in the story (including Doom's own thought processes as the test continued) and see if the theories hold water.

My contention is Dr Doom could have won if it were against any sorcerer besides Dr Strange at the end. If Dr Strange was unsuspectedly taken out during the fracas of the first round and it became a duel during the second round, Dr Doom would have prevailed then it would have been just a matter of figuring out how to free the Aged Genghis. So, at this point in time, I agree that Dr Doom would have been destroyed by Dr Strange using just magic however the thread is for current time, which I believe Classic Strange can still beat Dr Doom but not outright destroy him. I agree that Dr Strange beats Dr Doom but I disagree with your phrase that Dr Strange destroys Dr Doom.

For starters, Doom didn't 100% miscast it. It worked. It just wasn't perfectly done, which allowed Stephen -- the far better Sorcerer -- to turn it back on Doom. Stephen notes that.

I don't really want to argue semantics but if a spell isn't perfectly cast it's miscast.

Second, Doom wasn't taking out 'high level Sorcerers'. He was taking out a bunch of people who A - were sorcerers, but we've never heard anything about (edit: see below0, who had become: B - dudes who were explicitly zombified and using bolts of energy similar to what had turned them into the mind-controlled zombies. Not their magic. Not all of their skills. No defenses. They're even depicted as being less-than all there, given how one of them talks (kind of...like this...).

I'd say the other sorcerers are up there, in terms of ability, to have heard the summons for the contest. Granted, they were all unnamed mooks but the story made it seem the contest was rather exclusive to magic users. Dr Doom was probably the bottom cut-off point as he barely heard the summons.

Third, Doom wasn't using the Crimson Bands before that. He's not shown doing so at all. So, yeah, maybe first time he was casting it...which indicates his level of sorcery as compared to Stephen's, as people far below Stephen have used the Crimson Bands much more effectively (again, Mordo's flunkies).

It is possible that it's the first time Dr Doom has cast the Crimson Bands. But it still doesn't make sense that Dr Doom would use it in this situation for the first time ever. Unless Doom cast it incorrectly and knew that Strange could easily reverse it on him. I'd say in a duel between the two of them, Dr Doom has a 0.0000001% of beating Dr Strange using just magic but it's still a 0.0000001% if Doom attacked and that's if he got lucky; but Doom, take note, didn't cast a offensive spell or some kind of killing spell, he cast a reversible binding spell knowing Strange can undo it. And the good thing about binding spells is they can be undone. If the Crimson Bands were cast correctly for some reason, Doom can grandstand as much as he wants and Dr Strange will still be alive; then if Doom gets bored he releases Strange. Doom's "attack" on Strange wasn't some kind of KO'ing spell to immediately take out Strange, it was a binding spell.

Whether or not it was Doom's plan to get the boon from the beginning -- which is theorized by a servant of his, NOT stated by Doom, and makes an interesting twist -- my points above are right there in the story, including in Doom's own thought processes as he fights.

But the servant's theory is the only one that makes sense within the context of Doom's thoughts before the contest; he doesn't need a title so why would he purposely try to take Strange out and win? Doom certainly wasn't going to stand around and play second fiddle to Strange. The only way, in keeping with the Doom character is to make the first move knowing it'll be ineffective against an individual who easily surpasses him in magic. At least now Doom was protected by a round Crimson field if any other bolts try to zombify him.

Heck, even after intensive training with Strange -- really intensive, Strange not holding back -- Doom flat-out states that Stephen's mastery of magic far exceeds his own. This occurs well-after the actual test for the Sorcerer Supreme.

Not really contending this point.

And I seriously doubt the Vishanti would have awarded the title to Doom if he used tech to win. They were looking for the Sorcerer Supreme, not some guy who could use tech.

It's some guy who could use tech but also use magic, so this isn't Ironman were talking about. It wasn't specifically stated that tech wasn't allowed. The Aged Genghis didn't rule Dr Doom out because of it, nor did the Vishanti intervene when Doom started using trackers within his mask to dodge mystic bolts. The only one to speak up was some random dude who was insecure in his magical abilities. So, if it came down to it and the title of Sorcerer Supreme actually meant something to Dr Doom (and it came with other prizes), I've no doubt that he would have put up a better fight than any of the others in the contest, even if it meant destroying the entire mountain range with anti matter. As it stands, Doom was one miscast spell away from being Sorcerer Supreme.

Again, I agree with your contention that Classic Dr Strange beats Current Dr Doom but I disagree with your phrase that Dr Strange destroys Dr Doom.

[daBronzeBomma]

I wouldn't say that Doom can withstand the Pre Crisis Lexosuit on physicality, but then again that suit is going to do jack to protect Lex from getting zorched in the soul or something, so.

The Hulk would depend on what incarnation of the Hulk. Stuff like the bands and neuro disruptors and soul punching magics all stacked onto each other should be unfortunate to deal with though.

So ... un-prepped Doom is somewhere above Hulk and Pre-COIE Lexosuit Luthor, but below Thor and Superman. Ok, good, good: We're narrowing the gap.

Hmmmmmm ... Green Lantern? Any of them? Alan Scott to Jessica Cruz or any Earth GL in between? They vary much or basically the same power-wise? Too much or too little to handle Doom?

[Pendaran]

So ... un-prepped Doom is somewhere above Hulk and Pre-COIE Lexosuit Luthor, but below Thor and Superman. Ok, good, good: We're narrowing the gap.

Hmmmmmm ... Green Lantern? Any of them? Alan Scott to Jessica Cruz or any Earth GL in between? They vary much or basically the same power-wise? Too much or too little to handle Doom?

I wouldn't say above, so much as that he has exploits in those specific situations to get around their problems.

[Sharpandpointies]

Reason one is outside the story. It would have made for a dull story if Dr Doom was just helping Dr Strange during the contest; and would have made Dr Strange's claim to the title of Sorcerer Supreme rather hollow as Doom would have been seen as stepping aside for Dr Strange to claim it. Second is, Doom didn't cast an offensive spell at Strange, it was a binding spell that could be reversed; and if there was someone who knew how to reverse the Crimson Bands it would be Strange. And Dr Doom didn't get booted from the match, he was rendered immobile but now protected by a Crimson shield.

It also happens to be one of the strongest spells around for getting someone out of the way. If we're going that route, then it seems just as likely that Doom simply didn't feel it was a good idea to flat-out off someone in the middle of the Vishanti's test.

I understand your perspective, here, btw.

My contention is Dr Doom could have won if it were against any sorcerer besides Dr Strange at the end. If Dr Strange was unsuspectedly taken out during the fracas of the first round and it became a duel during the second round, Dr Doom would have prevailed then it would have been just a matter of figuring out how to free the Aged Genghis.

I agree, that had Strange been taken out (somehow) and one of the other sorcerers we saw was the one facing Doom (again, somehow), Doom would very likely have won.

Which kind of supports the idea that the other sorcerers weren't anything special. Doom, at the time, was basically still a neophyte getting by on his armor analyzing spells. He was the only guy who made it through alongside Strange. Not exactly a great showing for the other sorcerers, who showed absolutely nothing special during the conflict, were lousy at protecting themselves, and (in at least one case) couldn't even use dimensional entreaties.

So, at this point in time, I agree that Dr Doom would have been destroyed by Dr Strange using just magic however the thread is for current time, which I believe Classic Strange can still beat Dr Doom but not outright destroy him. I agree that Dr Strange beats Dr Doom but I disagree with your phrase that Dr Strange destroys Dr Doom.

More on this below.

I'd say the other sorcerers are up there, in terms of ability, to have heard the summons for the contest. Granted, they were all unnamed mooks but the story made it seem the contest was rather exclusive to magic users. Dr Doom was probably the bottom cut-off point as he barely heard the summons.

Again, we had sorcerers there who didn't even know how to summon the energies of entities or extradimensional places. That places them below Mordo's flunkies. Sure, they were magic users, but their overall, demonstrated skill level was pretty abysmal by the standards of Strange, given some of them were below people two notches below him. And zero name-level people.

I'm not saying they were stumbling buffoons, but one doesn't need to be a stumbling buffoon to be a pretty loooong way from Strange, from Mordo (who is a doofus, but undeniably skilled at magic), from Mordo's flunkies, from Clea when she was an apprentice (where, despite her predilection toward needing to be rescued by Stephen, did occasionally call upon extradimensional entities), from other actual character-level sorcerers in Marvel.

And again - this is an important point - Doom wasn't taking those sorcerers out left and right. He was taking out zombified people (the sorcerers, yes, but AFTER they had been zombified, if that's a word) who seemed to have no defences and just the ability to fire the zombifying bolts of energy.

Waaay too much use of the word 'zombify' up there. ^_^ Apologies.

It is possible that it's the first time Dr Doom has cast the Crimson Bands. But it still doesn't make sense that Dr Doom would use it in this situation for the first time ever. Unless Doom cast it incorrectly and knew that Strange could easily reverse it on him. I'd say in a duel between the two of them, Dr Doom has a 0.0000001% of beating Dr Strange using just magic but it's still a 0.0000001% if Doom attacked and that's if he got lucky; but Doom, take note, didn't cast a offensive spell or some kind of killing spell, he cast a reversible binding spell knowing Strange can undo it. And the good thing about binding spells is they can be undone. If the Crimson Bands were cast correctly for some reason, Doom can grandstand as much as he wants and Dr Strange will still be alive; then if Doom gets bored he releases Strange. Doom's "attack" on Strange wasn't some kind of KO'ing spell to immediately take out Strange, it was a binding spell.

It is, in fact, a fight-ender spell. The Crimson Bands are generally viewed as that kind of thing, versus Bolts of Bedevilment which were kind of the back-and-forth stuff for mages at the time. Whether or not it would KO someone is immaterial -- it ends the fight. Strange, in the past, has used them as such, has been very wary of such things even when summoned by a lesser mage, and has himself been massively messed up by them.

Again, I get your perspective on the matter, but I don't see it that way personally.

But the servant's theory is the only one that makes sense within the context of Doom's thoughts before the contest; he doesn't need a title so why would he purposely try to take Strange out and win? Doom certainly wasn't going to stand around and play second fiddle to Strange. The only way, in keeping with the Doom character is to make the first move knowing it'll be ineffective against an individual who easily surpasses him in magic. At least now Doom was protected by a round Crimson field if any other bolts try to zombify him.

I will check this tonight, but again, the servant's theories don't match up with Doom's thoughts -- in his own head, not whatever he's telling other people which may or may not be the truth (because Doom? He does lie, mislead, and obfuscate).

It's some guy who could use tech but also use magic, so this isn't Ironman were talking about. It wasn't specifically stated that tech wasn't allowed. The Aged Genghis didn't rule Dr Doom out because of it, nor did the Vishanti intervene when Doom started using trackers within his mask to dodge mystic bolts. The only one to speak up was some random dude who was insecure in his magical abilities. So, if it came down to it and the title of Sorcerer Supreme actually meant something to Dr Doom (and it came with other prizes), I've no doubt that he would have put up a better fight than any of the others in the contest, even if it meant destroying the entire mountain range with anti matter. As it stands, Doom was one miscast spell away from being Sorcerer Supreme.

That's an interesting point about the tech, and one I'll need to consider. Will check on it tonight.

Regarding Doom winning.

So, my big problem (which I haven't made clear) with the whole "Doom was second place for Sorcerer Supreme" is LESS about the idea that Doom might have won if Strange didn't. While I take issue with the idea that he was 'second place' in terms of some kind of ranking (and still do), I'm not going to argue that had Strange somehow messed up, Doom couldn't possibly have 'won' the test. Had Strange messed up, Doom would have been the most viable person to get through the test. I'm iffy that he could have done so, as it required Strange to use his astral form (which, at that point, I'm doubting Doom could pull off), head in dodging all kinds of blasts (Doom's shielding of his physical body wouldn't have been sufficient if Strange's wasn't), and use the Eye to discern how to finish the test (Doom MIGHT be able to manage this with tech scanners, but what tech scanners could tell him 'the way to end the test is to actually ask for it', I don't know), and actually touch the crystal, but it's possible.

The thing is that people use it as some kind of proof that Doom is second only to Strange. He certainly wasn't at the time, as the entire test was filled up with a bunch of no-name nobodies, as noted above. None of them showed any high degree of sorcerous ability (by high degree, I mean capacities sufficient to be more than a tiny blip on Strange's radar). Take Mordo, as an example; based on what was shown, he wouldn't have a problem obliterating any of the sorcerers in that test not named Strange.

So while I don't feel Doom 'came in second' (I feel he basically passed stage one, that's all), you make some good points on the matter and I understand that perspective.

But I certainly do not feel it's not a meaningful thing to use as proof of Doom's capability with magic in comparison with Strange's, which is the reason it is often noted (including in this very thread).

Again, I agree with your contention that Classic Dr Strange beats Current Dr Doom but I disagree with your phrase that Dr Strange destroys Dr Doom.

So without getting into possibly inflammatory qualifiers like 'destroys', curbstomps, whatever, I'll put it more clearly.

I personally feel that Classic Strange (without prep) beats Doom (without prep) 10/10, given the disparity in their feats. There is simply too much of a power gap for Doom to overcome without a gimme or prep.

Unless I'm way behind on my Doom information, and he has recently been blowing up planets with his walk-around stuff, or beating up Heralds, or the like. ^_^

Things change with prep, of course. Both of them have ridiculous prep stuff.

Good conversation, by the way. Some good points. Too bad we're operating here 12 hours apart, makes it sloooow.

[The Arbiter]

Sorry to jump in, but just to state my own opinions on one small point: Winning 10/10 doesn't always mean you "destroyed" or stomped your opponent.

There are sometimes situations in Rumbles where a character has an edge so great that they may win every predicted fight without any of them being EASY fights. Needing to go all out, never letting up and using your powers in the most efficient way possible or else, may guarantee a 10/10 without any of them having been easy effortless fights. =)

For example: Juggernaut vs. Bane is a.... different sort of 10/10 if you get my point. It really would be an effortless affair, where one party could likely fall asleep mid fight and still never be remotely close to being harmed lol.