What non-cosmic can beat Dr. Doom?

[The Chou Lives]

The Asgardians All have parts of Odinforce in them so different from mortals.

[Beadle]

I’m pretty comfortable with Shaman Nate Grey dismantling Doom on an atomic level.

[Dalak]

The Asgardians All have parts of Odinforce in them so different from mortals.

I'm not saying they aren't different from people who can age to death, but they can be killed, mentally dominated, and are otherwise affected by esoteric abilities unless they show explicit resistances to them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't Asgardians just another race of Eternals or something else that wasn't a 'God'?

[Shellhead]

Hourman III could beat Doom.

[The Chou Lives]

I'm not saying they aren't different from people who can age to death, but they can be killed, mentally dominated, and are otherwise affected by esoteric abilities unless they show explicit resistances to them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't Asgardians just another race of Eternals or something else that wasn't a 'God'?

I just thought Asgardian are a tribe of people that Bor and then Odin lead and they had that mystic Odinforce/cosmic stuff in their body.

Of course they can die and stuff just stating what makes them different.

[Dalak]

I just thought Asgardian are a tribe of people that Bor and then Odin lead and they had that mystic Odinforce/cosmic stuff in their body.

Of course they can die and stuff just stating what makes them different.

Sorry, I'm just touchy about attributing the feats of one to another of the same race/species without a good reason.

[big_adventure]

I'm not saying they aren't different from people who can age to death, but they can be killed, mentally dominated, and are otherwise affected by esoteric abilities unless they show explicit resistances to them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't Asgardians just another race of Eternals or something else that wasn't a 'God'?

No, they are actual "gods" with worshipers and stuff like that, and because of that, they have godly something or other in them that makes them very different. They went into all of the "God v. Mortal" thing in detail during Dark Reign when Doom was hosting the Asgardians in Latveria. Obviously he was vivisecting some of them to figure this out because, despite all of the crap they tried to shovel in later to make him look like less of a colossal douche, he's always been one evil dude.

As far as resistance, man, gauging Thor's (or generic Asgardians') mental resistance isn't that easy. He's been whammies before, and he's also fought through whammies that he's got no business fighting through. He fought off Moondragon. Other Asgardians also have stupidly awesome mental resistance on panel just from being gods: in the original Secret War, Xavier tried to read the minds of the villains. Enchantress, whom nobody confuses with an absolute top-end Asgardian, detected him and no-sold him with a derisive laugh, then blocked him permanently from reading any of the other villains' minds with a casual gesture. And she did the first bit not with magic but because she is a goddess, in her own words. OTOH, Thor and others have been whammied by beings much less impressive than Xavier or Moondragon.

[Pendaran]

He fought off Moondragon.

That's an extremely generous take on "spent most of the comic being her love slave". He eventually fought off Moondragon, and that was helped out by that Moondragon was at that point spreading herself pretty thin.

If you're otherwise referring to Blood and Thunder that weren't exactly standard Thor.

[Dalak]

No, they are actual "gods" with worshipers and stuff like that, and because of that, they have godly something or other in them that makes them very different. They went into all of the "God v. Mortal" thing in detail during Dark Reign when Doom was hosting the Asgardians in Latveria. Obviously he was vivisecting some of them to figure this out because, despite all of the crap they tried to shovel in later to make him look like less of a colossal douche, he's always been one evil dude.

Being worshiped does not make one a god, and even then there are gods and GAWDS. You have given me something to look at though in Dark Reign. He's also messed with Power Cosmic and similar so he's going to have to say stuff about how it's not just another power he can jack.

As far as resistance, man, gauging Thor's (or generic Asgardians') mental resistance isn't that easy. He's been whammies before, and he's also fought through whammies that he's got no business fighting through. He fought off Moondragon. Other Asgardians also have stupidly awesome mental resistance on panel just from being gods: in the original Secret War, Xavier tried to read the minds of the villains. Enchantress, whom nobody confuses with an absolute top-end Asgardian, detected him and no-sold him with a derisive laugh, then blocked him permanently from reading any of the other villains' minds with a casual gesture. And she did the first bit not with magic but because she is a goddess, in her own words. OTOH, Thor and others have been whammied by beings much less impressive than Xavier or Moondragon.

A) Blocked him Temporarily as he's read many of their minds since, and a blanket Null-TP spell isn't an inherent resistance.

B) What showings do the Warriors 3 have vs Mind Whammies? How about actual Asgardians who aren't near the top of their fields? If you want them to have the equivalent of these feats you're going to have to give some sort of reason.

C) What Pendaran said.

[Iron Maiden]

I mean, a fair ballpark: classic or Jane Thor, in the Arena, wrecks him. Doom can't no-sell Thor's stuff or come all that close, and any Thor has enough of a speed edge to drop the guy before he can get going. The Ovoid, while lovely, doesn't seem to work on beings that different from Doom. It's fine on humans or things close, but I'm pretty leery on it working on something vastly non-human - and Marvel gods have some special energy or something that Doom can't duplicate or overcome. I mean, I don't recall Doom using the Ovoid on anything other than a human or at least a full on "mortal." I'll accept corrections if I'm wrong.

Doom with prep is a whole different story, of course.

It wasn't "our" Doom but in the first arc of Marvel Two in One, an alternate universe Doom used the Ovoid Transfer on Galactus to stop him from devouring his Earth.

[big_adventure]

That's an extremely generous take on "spent most of the comic being her love slave". He eventually fought off Moondragon, and that was helped out by that Moondragon was at that point spreading herself pretty thin.

If you're otherwise referring to Blood and Thunder that weren't exactly standard Thor.

Oh, I didn't say he no-sold her or anything, but that fighting her off at all was pretty impressive, especially given all of the everyone else who didn't, despite not being her top priority, as Thor was. But sure, it was not to claim REMOTELY that he can LOLnope someone on her level at all.

And yes, Blood and Thunder is a different thing entirely.

[big_adventure]

Being worshiped does not make one a god, and even then there are gods and GAWDS. You have given me something to look at though in Dark Reign. He's also messed with Power Cosmic and similar so he's going to have to say stuff about how it's not just another power he can jack.

It's very explicit - he CAN "jack" the power to an extent, it's just that, like the Power Cosmic and many other things that he can steal, he can't create or manipulate it without stealing it. So anyway, read the issues and come back.

A) Blocked him Temporarily as he's read many of their minds since, and a blanket Null-TP spell isn't an inherent resistance.

Two points: she detected him and no-sold him with no spell at all, explicitly saying it was because she was a goddess and he was a human. The extremely casual spell was just to protect all of the non-gods in the room.

As for the spell, it was "permanent" for the arc and no effort at all until she just decided not to do it anymore (or another writer forgot about it). Also, how many of those specific villains has Chuckie read minds of since then, actually? I mean, I'm relatively sure that everyone forgot about it, but X-types don't face those guys often, and Magneto, who was definitely generally a villain at the time, was placed on the hero team by big B.

B) What showings do the Warriors 3 have vs Mind Whammies? How about actual Asgardians who aren't near the top of their fields? If you want them to have the equivalent of these feats you're going to have to give some sort of reason.

Very few non-named Asgardians have mental feats at all. Balder has chucked off magical mind control. Thor has chucked off, with verying degrees of effort, time and help, both magical and psi mind control. Odin has engaged in TP battles with Galactus, and engged in battle with entities for whom TP is a general part of the combat package (Celestials, Eternals, Uni-Mind, etc.). Karnilla, Amora, Loki, Hela and Lorelei have used magical mind control, but have generally not been subjected to it that I recall.

C) What Pendaran said.

I addressed what Pen said above: I stated that Thor threw off mind control from one of the most powerful telepaths in Marvel. I didn't claim that he no-sold her, didn't claim that he wasn't under it's power for a long period of time - I just said that he threw it off. That's impressive in that very few other beings ever manage that against Moondragon. Take that as you will.

And it doesn't address remotely the fact that Doom's (canon) feats for the Ovoid switch are never against anyone over "normal human" level.

[big_adventure]

It wasn't "our" Doom but in the first arc of Marvel Two in One, an alternate universe Doom used the Ovoid Transfer on Galactus to stop him from devouring his Earth.

Not canon. :-)

[Pendaran]

Oh, I didn't say he no-sold her or anything, but that fighting her off at all was pretty impressive, especially given all of the everyone else who didn't, despite not being her top priority, as Thor was. But sure, it was not to claim REMOTELY that he can LOLnope someone on her level at all.

And yes, Blood and Thunder is a different thing entirely.

No. It is not that impressive. He was her actual love slave to the point of him proclaiming his love for her and so forth. She enslaved him despite otherwise keeping the planet under her control at the same time and she herself noted verbatim she could only devote a small portion of her power to doing so. And his "throwing her off" consisted of transforming to Don Blake because that was still in the time where Blake was a separate personality, because he knew as Thor he couldn't act against her and Moondragon hadn't bothered to control that part of him.


Moondragon, with most of her power focused on keeping a world under control, made Thor her love slave for an extended period. Thor had to straight up more or less transform into another person to get out of it. This is not some impressive showing for Thor.

[Sharpandpointies]

Either being where it's not, so super speed, or having some kind of potent willpower or mental resistance should do it. Perhaps a passive magic spell protection as well. Maybe a TP blocking piece of gear like Magnetos helmet?

I'm confident Dr. Strange in his prime could wreck Doom.

Oh, god yes.

No-prep, Classic Strange destroys Doom.

...with prep...hm. Depends on how much time each of them gets, really. Stephen's prep can be pretty damn outrageous as well.