View Poll Results: Should Superman kill?

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  • Never. He always finds another way.

    22 43.14%
  • Only when there is no other option.

    29 56.86%
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  1. #61
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Well know, yes. Big sellers, is a different story. Only one that would fit that description is Luthor.



    It changes it in that Superman is not the main focus of this story which greatly affects how this rule is treated. Kingdom Come and 775 were Superman stories and we see how that affects how the code is viewed. By contrast, Sacrifice was a Wonder Woman story that simply featured Superman and the code was allowed to be shown as flawed.



    Lex and the small scale guys are also well written why not? It isn’t like every nuke villain is well liked. Doomsday is an example of a villain that never should have been used past his debut story.



    Yeah, not by everyone. There’s been plenty of criticism of it being followed and praise for when it isn’t followed (Red Sun, Injustice, even Man of Steel to an extent).



    This can work, I’ll admit. Not likely to be the case given how Superman writers are.






    I only used Atomic Skull because you initially brought him up. Besides, you really think this current depiction will last?
    Sure kill villains they're just villains. But what about mobsters and gang members? How many would be saved if Superman killed them, how many die in the streets due to them? Why not Dictators or elected leaders committing war crimes? Why stop at the leaders and not go directly for the elected officials who Superman disagrees with like possibly ones against gun control how many life could be saved if they were gone and the new ones knew vote Superman's way? That's why he can't kill if the man with the powers of a god decides he knows best and can be Judge, Jury, and Executioner where does it end? This is how you get Injustice and Justice Lords Superman proving Lex was right about Superman all along the Alien couldn't be trusted.
    Last edited by Jokerz79; 10-14-2018 at 10:42 PM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    Sure kill villains they're just villains. But what about mobsters and gang members? How many would be saved if Superman killed the street they sell less than supervillains. Why not Dictators or elected leaders committing war crimes? Why stop at the leaders and not go directly for the elected officials who Superman disagrees with like possibly ones against gun control how many life could be saved if they were gone and the new ones knew vote Superman's way? That's why he can't kill if the man with the powers of a god decides he knows best and can be Judge, Jury, and Executioner where does it end? This is how you get Injustice and Justice Lords Superman proving Lex was right about Superman all along the Alien couldn't be trusted.
    Yeah this is what I mean when I say fans who defend this rule really like jumping to worse case scenarios and assuming that those in favor of Superman using lethal force in self defense or defense of others is wanting him to be Super Punisher.

    If I kill a guy who comes at me or my family with an axe, it does not mean I'm going to go on a one-man war against dictators and mob bosses. It's called proportionate response.

    Just to tackle one example, it has been shown that killing dictators does not usually lead to things getting better. At least, not if you don't have a plan for the aftermath in mind.

  3. #63
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Yeah this is what I mean when I say fans who defend this rule really like jumping to worse case scenarios and assuming that those in favor of Superman using lethal force in self defense or defense of others is wanting him to be Super Punisher.

    If I kill a guy who comes at me or my family with an axe, it does not mean I'm going to go on a one-man war against dictators and mob bosses. It's called proportionate response.

    Just to tackle one example, it has been shown that killing dictators does not usually lead to things getting better. At least, not if you don't have a plan for the aftermath in mind.
    You're not going out everyday fighting villains once he starts killing villains the justification of letting some live becomes faulty. Look at Toyman once he wouldn't be a villain Superman should kill then he became a child killer. So why not kill Prankster or Bloodsport before they cross that line? Also even criminals are due their day in court.

  4. #64
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    It changes it in that Superman is not the main focus of this story which greatly affects how this rule is treated. Kingdom Come and 775 were Superman stories and we see how that affects how the code is viewed. By contrast, Sacrifice was a Wonder Woman story that simply featured Superman and the code was allowed to be shown as flawed.
    See my point about how I think writers should treat it like window dressing.

    Lex and the small scale guys are also well written why not? It isn’t like every nuke villain is well liked. Doomsday is an example of a villain that never should have been used past his debut story.
    Well now your moving the goalpost. Them being smaller scale and Superman having no code against killing does not equate to, have any correlation to, nor guarantee well written comics. That's an uncontrollable variable that you added to make your argument. Lex has been written like dog sh!t before and so have smaller scale characters. The quality of the stories being produced with them in it is in no way shape or form a forgone conclusion.

    Yeah, not by everyone. There’s been plenty of criticism of it being followed and praise for when it isn’t followed (Red Sun, Injustice, even Man of Steel to an extent).
    Sure, and I'm making a case for why the alternative is praised. Never did I say no one praised nor liked versions that killed, and I don't get why you'd insinuate that I did.

    This can work, I’ll admit. Not likely to be the case given how Superman writers are.
    So far Bendis hasn't devoted whole stories to his code nor his moral high ground. In fact, he's on record making a point to say that his Superman doesn't lecture.

    Besides, you really think this current depiction will last?
    I dunno, but till they decide not to do it anymore it solves the issue. And there's always the option of just not using him. When's the last time you saw Terror Man or Blaze?
    Last edited by Superlad93; 10-14-2018 at 11:22 PM.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    You're not going out everyday fighting villains once he starts killing villains the justification of letting some live becomes faulty. Look at Toyman once he wouldn't be a villain Superman should kill then he became a child killer. So why not kill Prankster or Bloodsport before they cross that line?
    Because then it becomes murder and not self defense. I can't believe I have to explain this.


    Also even criminals are due their day in court.
    Yeah, if they can be captured alive without any danger to the people capturing them or civilians they are attacking. Their right to trial ends where another person's rights begin.

  6. #66
    BANNED Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Superman moral code is fine, It should never be changed, Superman should never kill. Period I firmly believe that BUT I think comics should on occasion present the no win scenarios that happen to real life heroes with Superman and show the consequence of not killing. And just like comics call out Wolverine (and other antiheroes) occasionally for absurdity of amount of people he(they) have killed. Comics should point out the vanity and non practicality of Superman,Spiderman and Batman position of they don't kill period. Then again Jason Todd getting killed, Batgirl getting paralyzed, Alfred nearly dying by the Joker .Spiderman family and friends nearly being killed by the Red Goblin, Flash Thompson dying. Kinda shows with happens when you don't kill period.

    Nobody is saying make Superman the Punisher. I am not even for Superman killing even when he has no choice but I rather show the failure of that inaction and let him keep his code. I rather see Wonder Woman,Green Lantern or Aquaman step in save day by doing what Batman and Superman can't do. The Morality fantasy of there always being away should be put into question sometimes
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 10-14-2018 at 11:37 PM.

  7. #67
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Superman moral code is fine, It should never be changed, Superman should never kill. Period I firmly believe that BUT I think comics should on occasion present the no win scenarios that happen to real life heroes with Superman and show the consequence of not killing. And just like comics call out Wolverine (and other antiheroes) occasionally for absurdity of amount of people he(they) have killed. Comics should point out the vanity and non practicality of Superman,Spiderman and Batman position of they don't kill period.
    Totally fine with this on occasion. As I said before, I think if writers really, really, really need to scratch the "Superman doesn't kill, and let me speechify on the topic for a bit" itch, then they should attack it from less conventional angles, and this, morbid as it is, scratches does that.

    But to maintain the integrity of the reality of the world these characters inhabit, and keep us in alignment with our heroes, they should broach this with some real tact and care. Wonder Woman, GL, or Aquaman coming in and doing what Superman or Batman didn't want to doesn't do that. It needlessly undermines the hero's space. Batman doesn't call Superman in to literally clean up Gotham because that's dumb and totally undermines the set of internal rules to that section of the DCU. And before anyone can say anything, logic can go eat a d!ck because bat shaped boomerangs and that impractical ass super cars are cool as hell.

    But this is, a real bummer and not something I'd actually recommend often, something that a writer can totally play with once in a good long while similar to speechifying about how Superman doesn't kill in the first place.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 10-14-2018 at 11:52 PM.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  8. #68
    BANNED Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    But to maintain the integrity of the reality of the world these characters inhabit, and keep us in alignment with our heroes, they should broach this with some real tact and care. Wonder Woman, GL, or Aquaman coming in and doing what Superman or Batman didn't want to doesn't do that. It needlessly undermines the hero's space. Batman doesn't call Superman in to literally clean up Gotham because that's dumb and totally undermines the set of internal rules to that section of the DCU..
    I wasn't saying that Supes should call in Wonder Woman to murk Lex. I am saying every once a while a story should be presented where Superman goes up against say a Maxwell Lord and it is a situation where he has kill, he knows the stakes and he doesn't do it. Another hero step in save the day. And the story covers the aftermath of that and you get Superman feeling a little guilty for not being able to kill and another hero reassuring that he wasn't completely wrong some of us have to operate in the darkness so that he can stay in light and be "the Ideal". The world is better having that Ideal around but there is someone doing what you aren't doing that is also keeping people safe.


    Also Internal Rules for different sections are stupid.Just saying but that is topic for another day
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 10-15-2018 at 12:46 AM.

  9. #69
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    Absolutely not.

    Superman is powerful enough and intelligent enough to find permanent solutions to his enemies without applying lethal force.

    Ultimately, Superman having to physically engage Doomsday and kill him to stop him was stupid considering he could have flown him off-world, tossed him into the farthest star from Earth, send him to the cosmic dumping ground that is the phantom zone e.t.c
    Last edited by Username taken; 10-15-2018 at 12:53 AM.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Absolutely not.

    Superman is powerful enough and intelligent enough to find permanent solutions to his enemies without applying lethal force.

    Ultimately, Superman having to physically engage Doomsday and kill him to stop him was stupid considering he could have flown him off-world, tossed him into the farthest star from Earth, send him to the cosmic dumping ground that is the phantom zone e.t.c
    This approach imo is awful, Why have any Superhero lose or die. You can always write a option where they don't die. I get the symbolism and escapism but the bad consequence is always avoidable every single time?

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    This approach imo is awful, Why have any Superhero lose or die. You can always write a option where they don't die. I get the symbolism and escapism but the bad consequence is always avoidable every single time?
    I agree that superheroes shouldn't die. It's part of the reason I don't agree with folks insisting the hero's journey should end in death, IMO it shouldn't, he could just tide off in the sunset at the case might be.

    But regarding what I said, with his variety of powers and technology, Superman can almost always find alternatives to applying lethal force. Except in cases where said threat is just damn too powerful like an Anti-Monitor or some such.

  12. #72
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    I think in many ways a lot of the feeling towards the "no kill" rule boils down to kind of Superman stories reader prefers.

    If you tend to prefer (as I do) the stories where an immensely powerful Superman has to engage in a battle of wits with opponents who are generally far less powerful...then the odds have to be evened in various way, to make the contest more absorbing. The villains have more time to prepare, can invent fantastic devices, etc. But most importantly...Supeman has to contest the struggle with metaphorically "one arm tied behind his back": his morality needs to prevent from using his overwhelming force directly. This is why the "no kill" policy was certainly appropriate to the Silver Age incarnation when his speed , strength, and all round abilities were at their zenith.

    If on other hand...you want to read stories where Superman fights equally powerful homicidal villains, or acts as a soldier in an army of heroes fighting immensely powerful and ruthless space invaders...then the "no kill" rule becomes ridiculous.

    And...of course..in recent decades we have seen the rise and rise of the second type of darker stories. This was all foreseen by Alan Moore in "Whatever happened to the Man of Tomorrow"...he was predicting the rise of the darker type of super hero yarns which would make the gentle Silver Age Superman effectively "redundant".

  13. #73
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    I wasn't saying that Supes should call in Wonder Woman to murk Lex. I am saying every once a while a story should be presented where Superman goes up against say a Maxwell Lord and it is a situation where he has kill, he knows the stakes and he doesn't do it. Another hero step in save the day. And the story covers the aftermath of that and you get Superman feeling a little guilty for not being able to kill and another hero reassuring that he wasn't completely wrong some of us have to operate in the darkness so that he can stay in light and be "the Ideal". The world is better having that Ideal around but there is someone doing what you aren't doing that is also keeping people safe.
    I personally think you get good--even great--- mileage out of this particular story once. I think it's a solid exploration, and if the writer does their job correctly you come away fairly content with both schools of thought. If the writer does do their job correctly you spend the next few unrelated issues wondering where WW and GL are to clean up for the naive and inept children, Batman and Superman, after they're done playing cops and robbers. These heroes thrive on their mystique. Again, Batman is like 95% nonsensical. We as a collective aren't dumb, we're not under the impression that there's any real world situation where one guy's life goal to punch out the idea of crime in a bat suit is anything but dumb, but we're cool with that. You totally ask why and how Sebastian the crab talks, but the real answer is "it's not real, dude" every single time.

    That's not the sexy answer all of us nerds are looking for, but it's the answer. So, like I said, yeah, I think that's a story you get real mileage out of once, and you put your all into it. But after the point is already made at least in regards to other heroes helping, imo.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  14. #74
    Astonishing Member dancj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scribbleMind View Post
    I think Superman should kill when there is no other option, BUT, he should never kill humans.
    Are you saying he should be racist?

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I personally think you get good--even great--- mileage out of this particular story once. I think it's a solid exploration, and if the writer does their job correctly you come away fairly content with both schools of thought. If the writer does do their job correctly you spend the next few unrelated issues wondering where WW and GL are to clean up for the naive and inept children, Batman and Superman, after they're done playing cops and robbers. These heroes thrive on their mystique. Again, Batman is like 95% nonsensical. We as a collective aren't dumb, we're not under the impression that there's any real world situation where one guy's life goal to punch out the idea of crime in a bat suit is anything but dumb, but we're cool with that. You totally ask why and how Sebastian the crab talks, but the real answer is "it's not real, dude" every single time.

    That's not the sexy answer all of us nerds are looking for, but it's the answer. So, like I said, yeah, I think that's a story you get real mileage out of once, and you put your all into it. But after the point is already made at least in regards to other heroes helping, imo.
    Maybe your comics are nonsensical,my comics are not and we are suppose to challenge writers to keep thing making sense. Don't mistake having fantastical elements for excusing stupid storytelling. Yes put on batsuit to punch out crime is "dumb" but the genre on whole has move on past that into semi plausible grounds and only thing that keep it from advancing is fans who go " I don't want to think just present me with a silly fantasy that let me escape". Anytime some fans presented with challenge comics to be a little smarter as they present themselves in a realistic world they go just ignore the stupid because it is fantasy "Superman always finds way because fantasy" "Nobody notices Clark and Superman is the same person because fantasy" "A man in batsuit is silly because fantasy" instead of going writers let the story be a little smarter.

    Just because Green Lanterns are running with magic rings instead of guns does mean you can't get a smart criminal justice procedural, Just because Batman has silly costume does mean his comic world can't have real laws and justice,and Just because Superman is amazing powerful alien doesn't mean dumb down morality tale never give cost to his actions. Comics never seem to forget that cost of being an antihero/dark hero and it is covered over and over they are never afraid to cover the cost of take the law into your hands but for some reason people go"Don't cover flaws of this anti kill style ever" because it will make them less of hero. Losing a little of "the mystique" goes long way to making a better a stories. You seem to think the naiveness is bad thing
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 10-15-2018 at 05:24 AM.

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