View Poll Results: Should Superman kill?

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  • Never. He always finds another way.

    22 43.14%
  • Only when there is no other option.

    29 56.86%
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  1. #76
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    You're not going out everyday fighting villains once he starts killing villains the justification of letting some live becomes faulty. Look at Toyman once he wouldn't be a villain Superman should kill then he became a child killer. So why not kill Prankster or Bloodsport before they cross that line? Also even criminals are due their day in court.
    there are bad guys who can be put in jail. A high security one and then you let the human law take care of them. But there are other villains who are so powerful, evil and unstoppable like Doomsday that the best option is to kill them. If someone was going to kill me or my family, I'd try to kill him first. And it doesn't make me a bad person at all.

    Wonder Woman killing doesn't seem to make her a lesser person in the eyes of people. And she's supposed to be nearly as powerful as Clark..

    Superman fans, including writers, put Superman on such a high pedestal and that is counter-productive at times. For me a Superman that should never kill is just a fairytale. A Superman living in a more realistic world should know that there is a possibility even if he tries his best to avoid it. Being a hero requires sacrifice. And sometimes that sacrifice means his own death.

  2. #77
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    there are bad guys who can be put in jail. A high security one and then you let the human law take care of them. But there are other villains who are so powerful, evil and unstoppable like Doomsday that the best option is to kill them. If someone was going to kill me or my family, I'd try to kill him first. And it doesn't make me a bad person at all.

    Wonder Woman killing doesn't seem to make her a lesser person in the eyes of people. And she's supposed to be nearly as powerful as Clark..

    Superman fans, including writers, put Superman on such a high pedestal and that is counter-productive at times. For me a Superman that should never kill is just a fairytale. A Superman living in a more realistic world should know that there is a possibility even if he tries his best to avoid it. Being a hero requires sacrifice. And sometimes that sacrifice means his own death.
    Human Law is his Law or else everything he claims to stand for is a lie. The defending myself or my family is a false comparison here's a better one should law enforcement be allowed to kill serial killers and mass murder suspects instead of arresting them?

  3. #78
    Master Hero Vladimir
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    Maybe I should clarify my statement. I think it would be a good plotline to get Superman in a position where is forced to take a life because it would provide a good opportunity for character development. By taking a life, Superman can understand how fragile and delicate life can be, which would further motivate him to protect life at all costs. As long as that story is done in a subtle and nuanced manner, I can accept it.

  4. #79
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Because then it becomes murder and not self defense. I can't believe I have to explain this.




    Yeah, if they can be captured alive without any danger to the people capturing them or civilians they are attacking. Their right to trial ends where another person's rights begin.
    Very few supervillains can hurt Superman so if he kills it's more than likely to protect others and then why stop?

  5. #80
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Absolutely not.

    Superman is powerful enough and intelligent enough to find permanent solutions to his enemies without applying lethal force.

    Ultimately, Superman having to physically engage Doomsday and kill him to stop him was stupid considering he could have flown him off-world, tossed him into the farthest star from Earth, send him to the cosmic dumping ground that is the phantom zone e.t.c
    Sending Doomsday into a star to kill him or what exactly?

    Sending villains to the Zone is a good cop out I guess, tho I'm sure some people would rather die than being there. If you were put in isolation for the rest of your life, would you choose it? It's like being dead alive, especially if you can never go outside. I'd rather die.

    In the new Death of Superman movie, Diana told Clark to not hold back against Doomsday or he would kill them all. And Clark fought the monster and did what needed to be done. I don't know about you, but I still love him and admire him because he showed in many other ways he was still a nice and kind person to everyone. Killing or not killing, he's still Superman to me. It just depends on the execution. Did you like it when Superman broke a powerless Zod's hand in Superman 2? I think many enjoy that scene.. I can see why. It is cathartic. But I also find it cruel of Clark to abuse his power this way. He humiliated Zod after Zod humiliated him. That was revenge. After all, Clark is still human in his heart. Same with the beatdown of Rocky at the diner.
    Last edited by stargazer01; 10-15-2018 at 09:26 AM.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    Very few supervillains can hurt Superman so if he kills it's more than likely to protect others and then why stop?
    Because murder is not self defense or defense of others.

    I already said this.

    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    Sending Doomsday into a star to kill him or what exactly?

    Sending villains to the Zone is a good cop out I guess, tho I'm sure some people would rather die than being there. If you were put in isolation for the rest of your life, would you choose it? It's like being dead alive, especially if you can never go outside. I'd rather die.

    In the new Death of Superman movie, Diana told Clark to not hold back against Doomsday or he would kill them all. And Clark fought the monster and did what needed to be done. I don't know about you, but I still love him and admire him because he showed in many other ways he was still a nice and kind person to everyone. Killing or not killing, he's still Superman to me. It just depends on the execution. Did you like it when Superman broke a powerless Zod's hand in Superman 2? I think many enjoy that scene.. I can see why. It is cathartic. But I also find it cruel of Clark to abuse his power this way. He humiliated Zod after Zod humiliated him. That was revenge. After all, Clark is still human in his heart. Same with the beatdown of Rocky at the diner.
    Yeah, that's something else that bugs me: why is killing in any context wrong but fans are okay with everything else superheroes do? The Phantom Zone alone is a civil rights nightmare and Batman gives Jack Bauer a run for his money in brutality and use of torture.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 10-15-2018 at 09:29 AM.

  7. #82
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    Human Law is his Law or else everything he claims to stand for is a lie. The defending myself or my family is a false comparison here's a better one should law enforcement be allowed to kill serial killers and mass murder suspects instead of arresting them?
    I'm of the belief that some people should not exist. So yes, kill them. We don't need them at all.

  8. #83
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    Very few supervillains can hurt Superman so if he kills it's more than likely to protect others and then why stop?
    Can I ask you? I get the feeling that you are a Doctor Who fan, right? I am too. I consider the Doctor an hero of sorts. Probably an antihero. He kills to save others. He has killed an entire race in the Daleks, or so he thought. Also the spider Queen, Racnoss and her children. And people still like him. Do you think he did the right thing?

  9. #84
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Because murder is not self defense or defense of others.

    I already said this.



    Yeah, that's something else that bugs me: why is killing in any context wrong but fans are okay with everything else superheroes do? The Phantom Zone alone is a civil rights nightmare and Batman gives Jack Bauer a run for his money in brutality and use of torture.
    Agreed. It seems Batman is so brutal with the bad guys, that realistically would leave them unable to move or walk or function and be independent to survive. Why is that acceptable and he is still considered a hero? The truth is that he hurts some people so much that death would be preferable. Who is going to take care of them after Batman beat them so brutally? It just isn't realistic. It's a fantasy.

  10. #85
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    Part of the problem I see is that people insist on Superman (or Batman) being dedicated to saving lives at all costs and to being the one deciding when lethal force is needed. Since the Joker has been raised a few times I must ask just why Batman and not the people of Gotham are not the ones responsible?

    Batman arrests the Joker and turns him over to the Gotham cops. He could be executed by the state. He could be killed by any prison guard "accidentally" or "in self defense". But somehow the overwhelming opinion is that Batman has to be the one to pull the trigger or else Batman might as well just murder all the Joker's future victims himself.

    And as far as Superman goes, I just don't accept that his moral absolute is the saving of lives. Like I said he doesn't impose his will on drug addicts and force them to get clean to prevent potential overdoses. He doesn't prevent the people of Metropolis from going out for drinks just to prevent the possibility of drunk drivers. He doesn't kidnap people and take one of their kidneys to preserve the lives of others who need those kidneys. So in those cases he holds self determination as a higher moral value than preserving life. While not popular there is such a thing as a moral position that says lethal force is not justified for ANY reason even self defense or the defense of others. Superman can actually hold an opinion that says Superman's acting to take a life is morally worse than Zod doing so- that killing Zod is not a morally acceptable answer to stopping Zod from killing some third party. He can believe that, gasp, Zod is actually the only one responsible for a death caused by Zod. That Superman's inaction to prevent a death is not equivalent to Superman's acting to take that same life.
    These are pretty great points.

  11. #86
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    For example; Our Worlds At War.
    Do you recommend this one Ascended? Is it easy to pick up in trade?

  12. #87
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    I got into an argument with a guy on reddit on whether superhumans should kill or not a while back. I remember the response quite vividly. It's not a matter of whether superheroes should have the ability to permanently end lives, but rather a matter of whether superheroes should takes lives. Sounds weird, but it makes sense.

    Let's take Superman for example. Let's say Superman depowers and vaporizes Zod until there is nothing left but a pile of ashes. Would this stop Zod's resurrection? Can you control where Zod comes back from the dead? For all we know, a blood sample could be used to clone Zod using some ancient technology from Krypton which can imprint consciousness, too. Zod could return, strike at any time, and Superman would have no leads.

    If Zod was locked up, at least the investigation could commence from where his prison was.

    It's less of a matter of life and more of a matter of pragmatism.

  13. #88
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    "Superman doesn't kill, and let me speechify on the topic for a bit"
    It's always seems like such a tedious place to go, but 80 years in and we still have the question being asked. Really, some of those stories are my favorite stories but I think it should be pretty clear what his stance is on the whole thing by now. It should be as obvious as how he feels about Lois or how he feels about helping the needy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Ultimately, Superman having to physically engage Doomsday and kill him to stop him was stupid considering he could have flown him off-world, tossed him into the farthest star from Earth, send him to the cosmic dumping ground that is the phantom zone e.t.c
    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    But regarding what I said, with his variety of powers and technology, Superman can almost always find alternatives to applying lethal force. Except in cases where said threat is just damn too powerful like an Anti-Monitor or some such.
    The second time he tried to fly Doomsday off-world is when he took the elbow spike into his ribs. Also, at that point in time he hadn't any sort of access to the Phantom Zone.

    I know a lot of people feel this way but it's far from the first time a story has asked us to accept the idea that Superman could die in combat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning Rider View Post
    Do you recommend this one Ascended? Is it easy to pick up in trade?
    They have the one trade that really covers everything you need. "Superman: Our Worlds at War" from 2006. You'll know it by the... Ed McGuinness cover from a completely different story the year before, haha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    No one is asking for Super Punisher.
    I am. Maybe by Donny Cates. I'd love to see him have bullet vision or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Doomsday is an example of a villain that never should have been used past his debut story.
    I often see this suggestion, but I don't get it. If that story shows us what happens when it's kill and/or be killed, and Superman comes out of it with experience, isn't it worth asking what he would do with that experience if put in the same position? Doomsday's gimmick was even being immune to facing defeat the same way twice.

  14. #89
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    Can I ask you? I get the feeling that you are a Doctor Who fan, right? I am too. I consider the Doctor an hero of sorts. Probably an antihero. He kills to save others. He has killed an entire race in the Daleks, or so he thought. Also the spider Queen, Racnoss and her children. And people still like him. Do you think he did the right thing?
    Honestly the Doctor is a different beast I don't idolize him like some fans this was a man who when we first met him was going to kill an injured cave man because he didn't want to carry him and slow him and the companions down. So I think certain Doctors killing makes sense because it fits their personalities and who they are but I don't feel all Doctors should kill. Same thing with like guns I have no issue with certain Doctors using guns while some fans (Mostly New Who Fans) think that's unacceptable and out of character it isn't.

    I feel if Superman kills than he's just a god passing judgment besides the moral slippy slope. I also think killing goes against who Clark is and if he is forced to do it it needs to truly be the last resort and haunt him going forward.
    Last edited by Jokerz79; 10-15-2018 at 11:58 AM.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post

    I often see this suggestion, but I don't get it. If that story shows us what happens when it's kill and/or be killed, and Superman comes out of it with experience, isn't it worth asking what he would do with that experience if put in the same position? Doomsday's gimmick was even being immune to facing defeat the same way twice.
    That question can be asked without Superman literally having to fight a guy he's already killed time and time again.

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