Alexander Anderson vs Kotomine Kirei

[BitVyper]

Black keys and bayonets only.

[Harbinger19]

As much as I love Kotomine, my money’s on Anderson more often than not in a straightforward melee.

One scenario Kirei could potentially win is if he burns through all his Command spells (supposedly by Word of Nasu he could even defeat Ciel by doing so.)

Ciel herself is arguably nail Anderson’s level or above by stats and regen alone, to say nothing of the Seventh Scripture and Roa’s magecraft, let alone her powered up form, so it’s quite something for Nasu to put peak Kirei on her level.

But I don’t know if Rumbles would accept statements of that sort given the absence of feats.

[The Chou Lives]

Rumbles is not by word of mouth but feats. Like literally s cornerstone, because hyperbole comes up sometimes ( like the golden age Batman apparently going FTL to stop a gun.$

[Harbinger19]

It’s true the feats don’t exist, but this statement I’m referring to is not the same as random single comic caption hyperbole.

It’s the single authoritative creator of a universe discussing a hypothetical scenario according to the universe’s established rules. I recall Rumbles having a serious discussion about the letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, the focus of which being Sauron’s mind control ability or lack thereof.

IIRC, Tolkien wrote at some length about how it was impossible to subvert the free will of Men in Middle Earth, because Illuvatar and other reasons, and this Word of God statement was used to inform said Rumbles debate.

I’m not sure this is the exact thread I have in mind (might have been pre-board wipe) but in this thread there’s plenty of serious discussion of Word of Tolkien statements.
https://community.cbr.com/showthread...r-the-One-Ring

That kind of Tolkien quote is not a feat contained within the story, but it seems to me that it does have something to do with presentation.

Anyway, the point I’m trying to make is that Rumbles is not solely feats, it is “feats consistent with presentation,” and I think this could potentially inform Kotomine’s presentation. It’s definitely a gray area at best though, and I’m willing to accept that it’s not Rumbles-kosher.

[BitVyper]

That Tolkein conversation isn't really much of a rumble from the outset, whereas this is a direct character-v-character in Khazan deal, and it's the OP who starts out talking about Tolkein's letters. Taking a brief glance down the thread, I'm not seeing the statement being taken seriously.

Author statements don't stand in for feats, and an author nebulously saying that one character could maybe beat another doesn't really provide much information in any case. Like it'd be another thing if there was a nebulous bullet dodge feat or something and the author came out and said "yes he dodged the bullet after it was fired" or "no he did not" for some reason. I personally, would probably take that into consideration unless it was a major misrepresentation of what happened on panel, but that's not really what's happening here.

To be honest though, I'd be up for discussing the statement and the Ciel thing with you anyway, if I were familiar with them. It's not like Rumbles rules are saying you're not allowed to talk about those things at all.

[Siriel]

Ciel herself is arguably nail Anderson’s level or above by stats and regen alone, to say nothing of the Seventh Scripture and Roa’s magecraft, let alone her powered up form, so it’s quite something for Nasu to put peak Kirei on her level.

"Powered up" Ciel is Ciel with Seventh*, using self-hypnosis to be more cold personality-wise and using more of Roa's magecraft, and Nasu didn't say that she had any of those things when talking about a random fight.

Anyway, there's an important distinction between Ciel and Anderson's regens, which is that if Ciel gets pinned to the ground by being impaled with swords she lacks the ability to just prop herself up like Hellsing characters do (Roa repeatedly stomps her throughout Tsukihime by using that method). She's harder to actually kill than him but easier to defeat.

*: Mind you, Seventh is of limited use against humans because its specific schtick is to kill a specific kind of immortals.

But also the Kotomine that Nasu was talking about wasn't just him using Command Seals but also him in the "brightest moment of his life", which is a recurring element in the Nasuverse where someone due to circumstances and mental state aligning reaches a level they otherwise never could where they can do things that should be impossible for them. So it's not really relevant when talking about Kotomine at any other point.

Anyway, Kotomine outside of that moment isn't even a full bullet timer; he's going to be torn apart by Anderson. The only way he might win is if Anderson for some reason lets him give him a Command Seal-powered punch to the head.

[Harbinger19]

"Powered up" Ciel is Ciel with Seventh*, using self-hypnosis to be more cold personality-wise and using more of Roa's magecraft, and Nasu didn't say that she had any of those things when talking about a random fight.

Anyway, there's an important distinction between Ciel and Anderson's regens, which is that if Ciel gets pinned to the ground by being impaled with swords she lacks the ability to just prop herself up like Hellsing characters do (Roa repeatedly stomps her throughout Tsukihime by using that method). She's harder to actually kill than him but easier to defeat.

*: Mind you, Seventh is of limited use against humans because its specific schtick is to kill a specific kind of immortals.

But also the Kotomine that Nasu was talking about wasn't just him using Command Seals but also him in the "brightest moment of his life", which is a recurring element in the Nasuverse where someone due to circumstances and mental state aligning reaches a level they otherwise never could where they can do things that should be impossible for them. So it's not really relevant when talking about Kotomine at any other point.

Anyway, Kotomine outside of that moment isn't even a full bullet timer; he's going to be torn apart by Anderson. The only way he might win is if Anderson for some reason lets him give him a Command Seal-powered punch to the head.

Right, sorry if I made it sound I was saying Kirei > Powered up Ciel, I didn’t mean to convey that. Though I believe there’s another statement where Nasu says Kirei was originally supposed to defeat Assassin by burning through all the Command Seals he had, which is sort of on the same level as the Kiritsugu brightest moment/Base Ciel beating tier, isn’t it?

Regarding the regen issue, don’t the Black Keys Roa stabbed her with negate that? I know they’re also meant to target vampires and spirits mainly but thought the anti-regen might work on say, Wolverine.

I do remember Ciel getting stomped by Roa on that occasion, but as I recall that was just in her route when Roa was threatening Shiki. IIRC Roa even said Ciel would have killed him if she hadn’t hesitated. Every other encounter that I remember involved Roa retreating.

Is there some other encounter I’m not remembering? It’s been about a year and a half since I went through Tsukihime.

That Tolkein conversation isn't really much of a rumble from the outset, whereas this is a direct character-v-character in Khazan deal, and it's the OP who starts out talking about Tolkein's letters. Taking a brief glance down the thread, I'm not seeing the statement being taken seriously.

Author statements don't stand in for feats, and an author nebulously saying that one character could maybe beat another doesn't really provide much information in any case. Like it'd be another thing if there was a nebulous bullet dodge feat or something and the author came out and said "yes he dodged the bullet after it was fired" or "no he did not" for some reason. I personally, would probably take that into consideration unless it was a major misrepresentation of what happened on panel, but that's not really what's happening here.

To be honest though, I'd be up for discussing the statement and the Ciel thing with you anyway, if I were familiar with them. It's not like Rumbles rules are saying you're not allowed to talk about those things at all.

Fair enough. Like I said, it’s not the exact thread I remember but I take your point regardless.

Sorry if I’ve derailed your thread.