RE: CBR Article - "Does Batman Need To Be White?"

[theonetruebatman]

Hey there guys,

I saw this article on the front page of the site today and noticed noone else had come to the forums to start a productive discussion.

My knee jerk reaction was that it is a plain and simple fact that we have literally had 5 actors and 10 movies with a live action Batman and somehow have still not gotten the quintessential Batman portrayal and all the aspects and character traits that make the character all present within one film. Between Burton, Schumacher, Nolan, and Snyder all the pieces are there. However, there is also a lot of murdering, lack of detective work, and horrible voices that could have easily been rectified had the studio put their foot down in the right places or at the very most give these movies to people like Paul Dini, Denny O'Neil, Jeph Loeb, or Chuck Dixon which in my opinion are easily the 4 best Batman writers in the history of the character.

Here are what I feel are the best three options based on my personal preference in order to make this work. Each option also gives a critically thought out answer to why I feel this way.

3. Make it an Elseworlds story kind of like the Universe where genders are switched but instead this time do it with race. This has obviously worked for other characters that are arguably just as iconic. . When it comes to DC they have already even set a precident for this as on Earth 23 by giving homage to President Obama in their Calvin Ellis character who is also the President Of The United States. I haven't ever seen anyone complain about this character or if they have it wasn't that big of an outrage to catch traction even when it comes to political leanings let alone race. If they really wanted Michael B Jordan to be Kalel I would certainly enjoy him as this version of Superman. Now, with that being said back to Batman. If I were to write a black Batman and use a real person for inspiration it would hands down be Idris Elba. Not only is the dude built and tall but him playing Batman with the same intensity as does in "Luther" would be just as awesome as if Billy Dee Williams actually got to play Harvey Dent. The key to this kind of portrayal in my opinion is to not use the racial aspect as a framing device unless the situation calls for it.

2. Use a mixed race actor to play Bruce Wayne. Now, this part of this answer is also relevant to #3 but I feel it was just as relevant in the way of radically changing a beloved character before earning the trust in doing so. With that being said, casting a black Bruce Wayne vs casting a Black Batman as are two VERY different things (More in that in 1.) and with that said this option is where you should start. I feel like if they did something like this before they shot straight to a casting like option #1 would really lend itself to making everyone feel everyone feel represented while also not going to far too fast with an iconic character.

I can already anticipate some of you responding with how the CW Flash did it with Wally West and how that is the same thing. If you really think that though I would have to disagree and say that is a totally different circumstance. To back this point up let's look at the West family on the CW Flash. So why does completely changing the race of a character work in this instance? Well, it may be hard to remember but when it was first announced that Iris was going to be black there was backlash from the purists and bigoted. Just go look at any comments when it comes to the casting announcement. However, once the show aired and has proved that not only is the Flash expertly written when it comes to the portral, also a rare instance of comic book retconning also effected many naysayers attitudes when it came to wanting a faithful version of Wally West and led them to finally embrace the portrayal on the show as Iris West's brother.

After the DC Universe was altered in Flashpoint DC Comics editorial set a radical direction and controversial precident when they introduced a black Wally West as the eventual new portrayal of Kid Flash. The original Wally was apparently gone forever. This proved to be incredibly devisive and ultimately a creatively handcuffing initiative until DC Rebirth was launched as an answer to the cry of those of us fans who wanted if not entirety the Post-Crisis continuity back then at the very least the original Red headed white Wally West as he was the Flash for an entire generation both in comics and in the DCAU as Barry Allen had died and was absent for so long most casual comic readers or kids just getting into the medium didn't know who Barry Allen even was. Geoff Johns hearing the fans and also finding the New-52 to be creatively stifling and being the comic writing genius he is found a way to let us eat our cake and have it too by letting both Wally's exist in everyone's favorite red headed speedster and the new Wally West AKA Kid Flash that is the basis for the Wally in the CW Show. It is amazing how one character being back made a lot of the frustration go away and won over everyone's heart in the end. Or at the very least mine.

So when it comes to Batman I feel if you really wanted to use a person of color as Batman it would serve you to not shove a casting down the fans throats as you need the fans first and formost to be on your side if a film like this is to be successful as well as not playing to any stereotypes like I said above. If they went for someone similarly looking like this for instance I can with a solid portrayal I could certainly give it a chance and potentially love every moment. http://napo.biz/found.php it would work out perfectly and could truly please everyone involved.

1. And finally this would be my choice as I like organic situations to come out of comics and the argument and as to whether we should change a characters ethnicity or make new ones I am definitely a fan of the latter. So here goes. As I said above this is how you can have a person of color play Batman as opposed to also making that same person play Bruce Wayne and still have an incredible amount of story potential along with built in fan allegiance. My personal preference if this were to happen and would also open doors down the line and making the above two options more feasinble would be to make Luke Fox take the mantle of the Bat in a Pre/Proto Batman Beyond type situation. Thanks to Christopher Nolan and Morgan Freeman via "The Dark Knight Trilogy" everyone knows the name Lucius Fox and much like Samuel L Jackson has defined the movie and comic book version of Nick Fury so did Morgan Freeman create the quintessential characterization of Lucius in The Dark Knight Trilogy. The only difference between the two is Lucius Fox was always black from the beginning. So let's not reinvent the wheel here. Let's character build not only Lucius even more by not only finding out that Luke is Bat-Wing but also being the one who designs new tech for his son and dip into the DC creative well in that of the Bat-Family and bring in Luke Fox as Batman and have him be a bridge between Bruce Wayne and Terry McGinness. If you are seriously telling me you wouldn't want to see that idea as a prequel to Batman Beyond then you are crazy. I almost feel like writing it myself right now. So I will. :-)

Luke is not only a bad ass, smarter than Bruce Wayne in many ways technologically, and isn't a stereotypical character portrayal that has done a great job of representing the black race and all people of color. Since, which I could be wrong here, that Luke Fox is the one who created or at the very least now possesses "The Rookie" suit (IE Gordon's Batsuit) that has been revealed is the proto-type to the Batman Beyond which makes it one hell of an organic leap from one chapter of his story to the next as Batman. If it were to start there and given just the right amount of love from a A-Level writer like Tynion who IMHO has literally knocked TEC out the ballpark and has been far better than Tom King's Batman. Tynion has made it looks easy by balancing everyone in the bat-family perfectly. By using creating the same outcome with Luke as Batman could literally be the very spark the cause needs to take off.

Thanks for taking the time to read. I know it's long but I felt it deserved critical thought. What do you guys think? Gun to your head if you can't think of your own scenario which of mine would you trust WB to make the most of?

[PurpleGlovez]

Bruce Wayne is and must always be white, and his whiteness (i.e., his family's legacy and wealth) is a tenant of the character. Batman is even white on Morrison's race-bending Earth (!). They can certainly use Luke Fox or whoever they want, but the real Batman is not and simply cannot be a person of color. I am so so so sick of these articles.

[CPSparkles]

A-Level writer like Tynion is not only doing but making it looks easy balancing everyone in the bat-family

This made me laugh. Where is he doing this? The book that had 1 out of the Robins. Didn't have the main Batgirl and only brought in the core Batfamily to crap on them and used Batman to prop fringe members of the family? I never really cared what colour Batman was why does this have to become a thing?

I don't see why Batman's colour has to be changed. If people want representation rather than whitewashing Bruce why not showcase the diversity we have in the family all ready?

We have a Robin who is mixed, Duke is Black, Cass is oriental, Dick literally is a batman who isn't white. Damian Wayne is a Batman who isn't white. Why change Bruce when in canon we have non white Batmen and when there's no need to?
I don't see any reason why Bruce Wayne should suddenly become anything but White. It feels so disingenuous especially when DC isn't consistent with the diverse family members it already has.

Bruce Wayne is white. Batman doesn't need to be white and isn't always white. If fans want a movie with a non-white batman then give us Dickbats and embrace his romani origin or give us DamianBats. It's not difficult and DickBats is super popular.

I didn't read the whole write up I just skimmed. I wasn't going to get involved with this thread but that tynion part forced me to engage because that is not remotely true.

[Korath]

Bruce Wayne is and must always be white, and his whiteness (i.e., his family's legacy and wealth) is a tenant of the character. Batman is even white on Morrison's race-bending Earth (!). They can certainly use Luke Fox or whoever they want, but the real Batman is not and simply cannot be a person of color. I am so so so sick of these articles.

I vehemently disagree on this. There is no reason to not have a PoC Batman in an Elseworld setting. Nor reasons to have a Batman who isn't from the US, but Canada, UK, France, Nigeria, what have you. In fact, Elseworlds should push the enveloppe and leave behind a lot of who the characters are in the Main Universe : a Black Superman, a Peruvian crime-fighter dressed as a bat without money nor gadget, a Chinese super-soldier becoming "amazon-like", whatever a writer can think off.

Theonetruebatman's post highlight different possibilities and ways that WB and DC could pull a non-white Bruce Wayne. But at the core, the answer to such the article's question should always be : yes, because outside comics, everything is an adaptation on its own Earth and by this virtue alone, anyone can play any character of DC.

I'll use an example that I hold dear : I adore what Dan Abnett is doing with The Silencer, who is a dark-skinned Polynesian woman with metahuman abilities trying to have a normal life while her past as a top killer for Leviathan resurfaces. And in Arrow, she's a black woman who seems to enjoy being a killer and use technology to create her zones of silence. And I'm fine with it, because it's another universe, and it's an opportunity for the public to more largely ear about The Silencer, so if one day WB/DC wants to do more with her, there will already be some kind of "brand recognition". That's how peoples should see actors who aren't white playing white characters in the comics, IMHO.

[theonetruebatman]

A-Level writer like Tynion is not only doing but making it looks easy balancing everyone in the bat-family

This made me laugh. Where is he doing this? The book that had 1 out of the Robins. Didn't have the main Batgirl and only brought in the core Batfamily to crap on them and used Batman to prop fringe members of the family? I never really cared what colour Batman was why does this have to become a thing?

I don't see why Batman's colour has to be changed. If people want representation rather than whitewashing Bruce why not showcase the diversity we have in the family all ready?

We have a Robin who is mixed, Duke is Black, Cass is oriental, Dick literally is a batman who isn't white. Damian Wayne is a Batman who isn't white. Why change Bruce when in canon we have non white Batmen and when there's no need to?
I don't see any reason why Bruce Wayne should suddenly become anything but White. It feels so disingenuous especially when DC isn't consistent with the diverse family members it already has.

Bruce Wayne is white. Batman doesn't need to be white and isn't always white. If fans want a movie with a non-white batman then give us Dickbats and embrace his romani origin or give us DamianBats. It's not difficult and DickBats is super popular.

I didn't read the whole write up I just skimmed. I wasn't going to get involved with this thread but that tynion part forced me to engage because that is not remotely true.

You really don't know what you are talking about when it comes to Tynion's run if you didn't see everyone in one issue. If you didn't like the run to each his own. I feel a similar vitriol for Tom King's run and can't wait for his 100 story arc to be over and done with so we can get less Batman on a date or in jury duty and more Batman being Batman. And I say that as someone who didn't hate the jury duty arc but having it come after a date with Superman and a bachelor party leading to that Cartman's Dad level betrayal of "Batrimony" I am seriously over Kings run.

The best story that King has offered the book that wasn't The Button which King didn't even write because he has no idea how to write the Flash was the Bane arc even though it has a major deus ex machina plot hole. I also enjoyed the War Of Jokes and Riddles because at least it built the world out and had Batman being friggin Batman. After Snyder literally took Bruce out of the cowl again after it just happened within literally less than 4 years when Morrison did it really making Bruce not be Batman in more issues that he was Batman since Batman RIP by a landslide seriously made me ready for a writer who could bring something new to the title. That being said I really enjoyed just about every single part of Metal even though I feel there were a lot of missed opportunities.

And unfortunately while Doomsday Clock continues to suck a lot of the air out of anything else being put out right now just like when Dick was under the cowl in any other book but Batman and Robin therefore making everything else feel like static background noise. At least Tynions run was directly related to the Rebirth agenda and that served as at the very least a path forward while also in my opinion expertly handing Batwoman, made Clayface a scene stealing and ultimately tragic character to be cared for, and continued to bring the world back to the way we knew before the New-52 and for me that is what I need as a fan right now. Not the romantic comedy of the World's Finest. But to each his own sir.

PS: Oriental refers to rugs and food and region. Call an asian an oriental to their face and see their reaction. I dare you. The More You Know.

[theonetruebatman]

I vehemently disagree on this. There is no reason to not have a PoC Batman in an Elseworld setting. Nor reasons to have a Batman who isn't from the US, but Canada, UK, France, Nigeria, what have you. In fact, Elseworlds should push the enveloppe and leave behind a lot of who the characters are in the Main Universe : a Black Superman, a Peruvian crime-fighter dressed as a bat without money nor gadget, a Chinese super-soldier becoming "amazon-like", whatever a writer can think off.

Theonetruebatman's post highlight different possibilities and ways that WB and DC could pull a non-white Bruce Wayne. But at the core, the answer to such the article's question should always be : yes, because outside comics, everything is an adaptation on its own Earth and by this virtue alone, anyone can play any character of DC.

I'll use an example that I hold dear : I adore what Dan Abnett is doing with The Silencer, who is a dark-skinned Polynesian woman with metahuman abilities trying to have a normal life while her past as a top killer for Leviathan resurfaces. And in Arrow, she's a black woman who seems to enjoy being a killer and use technology to create her zones of silence. And I'm fine with it, because it's another universe, and it's an opportunity for the public to more largely ear about The Silencer, so if one day WB/DC wants to do more with her, there will already be some kind of "brand recognition". That's how peoples should see actors who aren't white playing white characters in the comics, IMHO.

That was a well thought out answer. I thank you for seeing what I was trying to do there. Also when it comes to foreign Batmen luckily Morrsion has already made that a reality and I wish they would at the very least make a loose adaptation of the Batman Inc arc in the current animation format they are using after they finally give us a proper Joker story. It would be a great way to bring back Talia after Bad Blood.

If anyone else would like to offer an idea I am all ears. Cheers.

[Aahz]

At least when it comes to movies (which is what the article is addressing) I don't think that an "Elseworld Black Batman" (like for example the Stan Lee Just Imagine Batman) would work for the general audience.

When it comes to a Black "Batman Beyond" I'm also sceptical, since I think you would have first have a few successful movies with Bruce as Batman to build this up organically. But if you already have a successful movie series why take the risk?

[kjn]

I think the answer to any such question cannot come from comparisons with other characters, but must look into the core of the character.

Race-bending Wonder Woman is entirely unproblematic from such a perspective, it would indeed by natural, even if Marston seems to have been steeped in white privilege. There is nothing in her background that is tied to her whiteness.

Batman and Superman are, I'd argue, different. Superman was created by jewish sf fans, and one description of the character that felt true to me was that Superman is a fantasy of passing as white: Superman is an alien that moves effortlessly in mainstream (ie white) American society. You could likely do an elseworlds story with a black Superman in America, similar to Red Son, but the interaction between Superman and society would be really different.

Batman is even more extreme. He is built on the concept of the orphaned child with old money and old privilege. In European terms, he's more similar to the aristocrats of The Count of Monte Cristo or The Scarlet Pimpernel. In US terms, I see no way such a character cannot be something else than white and make sense.

[theonetruebatman]

Bruce Wayne is and must always be white, and his whiteness (i.e., his family's legacy and wealth) is a tenant of the character. Batman is even white on Morrison's race-bending Earth (!). They can certainly use Luke Fox or whoever they want, but the real Batman is not and simply cannot be a person of color. I am so so so sick of these articles.

I also vehemently disagree with you on this. To say that Dick wasn't Batman when Bruce was dead is just foolish. It doesn't make him a FAKE Batman or an imposter. The same goes for Terry McGinness. I think I will take Bruce Wayne's word via the writer over yours any day because your opinion doesn'tlne up with reality. Were The Batmen of Many Nations less Batman than Bruce? If so then why would Bruce have sanctioned and deputized them under Batman Inc.?? If a writer had the power to make Bruce say that Luke honored the mantle of Batman that would therefore be Bruce basically.....DARK Knighting??...him and therefore IMHO he is Batman. Just like in Knightfall when Azrael was Batman and batsh*t crazy he was Batman until Bruce deemed it no more. End of story.

I will agree with you on it being a preference and a simple fact that Bruce Wayne is white and shouldn't be changed unless it is the bottom two options or otherwise follows the first option offered. I am, however, open to any idea that is shared.

[Aahz]

Race-bending Wonder Woman is entirely unproblematic from such a perspective, it would indeed by natural, even if Marston seems to have been steeped in white privilege. There is nothing in her background that is tied to her whiteness.

Not really Wonder Woman is strongly tied to the Greek Mythology, so giving her an ethnicity that doesn't really fit that makes also not much sense.

[Celgress]

No more than he needs to be "Jewish" (which some claim he is) IMO. I don't care what ethnicity Bruce is as long as the core elements of his character remain consistent.

[theonetruebatman]

At least when it comes to movies (which is what the article is addressing) I don't think that an "Elseworld Black Batman" (like for example the Stan Lee Just Imagine Batman) would work for the general audience.

When it comes to a Black "Batman Beyond" I'm also sceptical, since I think you would have first have a few successful movies with Bruce as Batman to build this up organically. But if you already have a successful movie series why take the risk?

I mostly agree with you when it comes to a Black Elserworld's Batman. It is extremely unlikely but when it comes to DC who the hell even knows anymore. I envision them throwing a dart at a custom made "build your own adventure" board when it comes to their movies these days. But when it comes to a mixed race actor playing Batman I think that is highly more possible as there is precedent for it when it comes to Superman as Dean Cain is half japanese. And when the kid who plays Beast Boy in Titans sent that video trying to get Affleck's attention to play Robin I felt if he was Tim Drake I would totally be okay with it as it would truly be something to set him apart from Dick, Jason, and Damian in a way that has never been really explored before. Bottom line the kid looked and certainly has the acting chops to do the character justice.

However, when it comes to Batman Beyond I don't think you have a true grasp on the demand this story has had for a faithful live action adaptation for literally over 20 years now. I think it is honestly a logical step if after Matt Reeves does what I assume will be another trilogy of films then to bookend it with an amazing adaptation of the Batman Beyond and unless it's more than a one and done truly find a way to make Blight, the Jokerz Gang, and a returned Joker the main villains. Because IMHO just like in Dark Knight Returns if the Joker is truly alive via a Robin like he was in the animated version it would be one hell of a twist especially for a talented writer who could tie that all together. Not only that but it would one hella of a fun thing to see. If they don't at the very least give Batman Beyond one film to take do all of that or more comfortably a 2 parter in order to cliffhang that the Joker has returned by say, seeing Batman on the news and breaking into the cave just like he did in the animated version leaving both Barbara and Terry to figure out if this was Jokerz or the real thing while also getting a flashback to Batman ala The Reeves Bruce Wayne trilogy then damn it I know that my drive to work for WB when I graduate is not only well placed but is in my blood as my grandfather had a very big role there at one time and having a hand in the superhero popularity of today being possible. I will make it my life's mission to truly see what they are pissing away when it comes to potential or die trying. And that's a promise.

[kjn]

Not really Wonder Woman is strongly tied to the Greek Mythology, so giving her an ethnicity that doesn't really fit that makes also not much sense.

While she is tied to Greek mythology, it is from an angle, and the Amazons were always on the fringes of the known Greek world. Even without moving out from the known written sources she can be North African (like Berber) or Central Asian (like Turkish). With the right waving of hands and spin of the Amazon background Wonder Woman could have a look like she came from South Asia or Africa south of Sahara.

[Pohzee]

Does Cyborg need to be black?

[CPSparkles]

You really don't know what you are talking about when it comes to Tynion's run if you didn't see everyone in one issue. If you didn't like the run to each his own. I feel a similar vitriol for Tom King's run and can't wait for his 100 story arc to be over and done with so we can get less Batman on a date or in jury duty and more Batman being Batman. And I say that as someone who didn't hate the jury duty arc but having it come after a date with Superman and a bachelor party leading to that Cartman's Dad level betrayal of "Batrimony" I am seriously over Kings run.

The best story that King has offered the book that wasn't The Button which King didn't even write because he has no idea how to write the Flash was the Bane arc even though it has a major deus ex machina plot hole. I also enjoyed the War Of Jokes and Riddles because at least it built the world out and had Batman being friggin Batman. After Snyder literally took Bruce out of the cowl again after it just happened within literally less than 4 years when Morrison did it really making Bruce not be Batman in more issues that he was Batman since Batman RIP by a landslide seriously made me ready for a writer who could bring something new to the title. That being said I really enjoyed just about every single part of Metal even though I feel there were a lot of missed opportunities.

And unfortunately while Doomsday Clock continues to suck a lot of the air out of anything else being put out right now just like when Dick was under the cowl in any other book but Batman and Robin therefore making everything else feel like static background noise. At least Tynions run was directly related to the Rebirth agenda and that served as at the very least a path forward while also in my opinion expertly handing Batwoman, made Clayface a scene stealing and ultimately tragic character to be cared for, and continued to bring the world back to the way we knew before the New-52 and for me that is what I need as a fan right now. Not the romantic comedy of the World's Finest. But to each his own sir.

PS: Oriental refers to rugs and food and region. Call an asian an oriental to their face and see their reaction. I dare you. The More You Know.

Here in England Oriental is perfectly acceptable for Chinese. Asian is Indian or Pakistani.

Balanced and A'level is subjective mate.