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  1. #1

    Default Thor, Loki, Mangog & Destroyer Armor vs. Pre Crisis Darkseid

    Pre Crisis vs. 616.

    Loki and Thor are INSIDE the Destroyer, wielding Mjolnir. They can use both Thor's abilities and Loki's spells simultaneously.

    BONUS: vs Pre Crisis Mongul

    EDIT: Doh! I totally spaced on Karnilla. I was intending for her to be here. NOT in the armor though.
    Last edited by The Arbiter; 10-15-2018 at 11:17 AM.
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  2. #2
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Any defence for Team Asgard against psychic attacks or time dumping? PC Darkseid used those a lot.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    Any defence for Team Asgard against psychic attacks or time dumping? PC Darkseid used those a lot.
    I would imagine some form of Mjolnir/Loki magic deflection may prevent the latter. Maybe. The first, I don't know. Can the Destroyer even be mentally attacked?

    Destroyer should be able to return from BFR under its own power iirc

    Edit: i forgot to include Karnilla. I've edited OP
    Last edited by The Arbiter; 10-15-2018 at 11:18 AM.
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  4. #4
    She/Her Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    I would imagine some form of Mjolnir/Loki magic deflection may prevent the latter. Maybe. The first, I don't know. Can the Destroyer even be mentally attacked?

    Destroyer should be able to return from BFR under its own power iirc

    Edit: i forgot to include Karnilla. I've edited OP
    The people inside the Destroyer can.
    Yeah, but if you... man, we're getting into weird analogy territory, like if you disintegrated Superman's arms he wouldn't be able to go "fool! Little did you know that my arms and I are one and can be remade from me!" and will his arms back into being from pure nothingness. - Pendaran

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  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh View Post
    The people inside the Destroyer can.
    If you wipe them out, won't it revert to auto pilot mindless Destroyer?
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  6. #6
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    If you wipe them out, won't it revert to auto pilot mindless Destroyer?
    How do you wipe them out while they are in the armor without wiping out the armor?
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta
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  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    How do you wipe them out while they are in the armor without wiping out the armor?
    *shrugs* we are well and truly outside of my comfort zone now haha

    I have no clue how these things work!
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  8. #8
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    Any defence for Team Asgard against psychic attacks or time dumping? PC Darkseid used those a lot.
    I mean, using an example I pulled up earlier, Amora, a much lower-tier Asgardian sorcerer than Loki, detected and repelled Xavier with literally no effort, and then made a casual gesture and blocked Chaz from hitting up any of team douchebag for the entire rest of Secret War. The few times that X-types have tried to go anywhere Loki with telepathy, they have regretted it. So they should be OK for psi.

    For time-dumping, well, Mjolnir can take care of that, and they have it here. Loki has done time silliness before, but seems to need help. When he did the Bor shenanigans, he had Hela send him back in time.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta
    "Get off my lawn! ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops." - Sharpandpointies
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    She/Her Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    In times past, the Destroyer had a will of its own, and if you weren't strong enough it would overpower you. I see no reason why a telepath on the level of Pre-Crisis Darkseid can't do the same to the minds sharing space inside the armor.
    Yeah, but if you... man, we're getting into weird analogy territory, like if you disintegrated Superman's arms he wouldn't be able to go "fool! Little did you know that my arms and I are one and can be remade from me!" and will his arms back into being from pure nothingness. - Pendaran

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  10. #10
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    I mean, using an example I pulled up earlier, Amora, a much lower-tier Asgardian sorcerer than Loki, detected and repelled Xavier with literally no effort, and then made a casual gesture and blocked Chaz from hitting up any of team douchebag for the entire rest of Secret War. The few times that X-types have tried to go anywhere Loki with telepathy, they have regretted it. So they should be OK for psi.

    For time-dumping, well, Mjolnir can take care of that, and they have it here. Loki has done time silliness before, but seems to need help. When he did the Bor shenanigans, he had Hela send him back in time.
    Pre Crisis Darkseid mind controlled an entire planet. No. They shouldn't be. Your opinion of these characters is inflated to the point that you're trying to treat all Asgardians as interchangeable in some reach to proclaim their impressiveness. There is no "standard Asgardian" set of capacity outside of their lowest rung of common citizenry/soldiers being decent bricks. From there, they become distinct.


    The Enchantress' resistances, are not the resistances of anyone else but the Enchantress. Thor and Loki don't get her resilience to mental effects.

    Alternatively, feats and issue numbers for Loki resisting his mind being messed with? Not someone not Loki. Loki.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 10-15-2018 at 04:28 PM.

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member Captain Morgan's Avatar
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    I'll also point out that Enchantress may or may not be as good as Loki overall, but she's probably pretty good at, you know, enchantment. As in, mind control. That's her specialty. There's a clue in the name. So this feels like saying because Apollo outraced a guy Ares could.

  12. #12
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Morgan View Post
    I'll also point out that Enchantress may or may not be as good as Loki overall, but she's probably pretty good at, you know, enchantment. As in, mind control. That's her specialty. There's a clue in the name. So this feels like saying because Apollo outraced a guy Ares could.
    It really doesn't mean that.

    OK, I'll explain the scene again: Chaz tries to enter the bad guys' minds. Amora detects him (Doom doesn't, nobody else either, just Amora). She talks to him on the open line and says "you aren't capable of doing this to a goddess, mortel, now fudge off." Not "you can't do this to me in particular because I'm super awesome at mind games" or "this won't work on me because I'm the enchantress." Explicitly, from the character's mouth: "Me god, you no god, ergo this no worky." She THEN uses her magic to protect everyone else.

    As I and other people have mentioned, Asgradians and Thor specifically have mental resistances all over the place. As mentioned in another thread, Thor kicks Phoenix Emma out of his head. But also gets turned off by Chaz, someone much weaker than Phoenix Emma. I'll point out that this has been a trope more than once in Marvel land, for other gods as well: Ares resisted a full power Nate Grey (also someone well above Chaz level) because "Imma god, yo."

    It's simply a question of whether you want to go by high end or not.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta
    "Get off my lawn! ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops." - Sharpandpointies
    "...makes me think the Night King just says "Screw the rules, I have magic money" when it comes to physics." -Captain Morgan

  13. #13
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    It really doesn't mean that.

    OK, I'll explain the scene again: Chaz tries to enter the bad guys' minds. Amora detects him (Doom doesn't, nobody else either, just Amora). She talks to him on the open line and says "you aren't capable of doing this to a goddess, mortel, now fudge off." Not "you can't do this to me in particular because I'm super awesome at mind games" or "this won't work on me because I'm the enchantress." Explicitly, from the character's mouth: "Me god, you no god, ergo this no worky." She THEN uses her magic to protect everyone else.

    As I and other people have mentioned, Asgradians and Thor specifically have mental resistances all over the place. As mentioned in another thread, Thor kicks Phoenix Emma out of his head. But also gets turned off by Chaz, someone much weaker than Phoenix Emma. I'll point out that this has been a trope more than once in Marvel land, for other gods as well: Ares resisted a full power Nate Grey (also someone well above Chaz level) because "Imma god, yo."

    It's simply a question of whether you want to go by high end or not.
    Thor, vs planetary scale telepaths, has ended up 1) asleep, 2) their love slave. Ares' performance, given the level of power and abilities he has demonstrated for the almost total majority of his career, wildly overperformed to do that and showed a capacity he had never otherwise shown before or since unless you have an example of that, ever. We otherwise have a term for outliers like that.


    The Enchantress, talking about whatever she can do because she's a god, does not translate to anyone else but the Enchantress. No one else gets her feats. We have seen what the "baseline" Asgardian package is and it has nothing to do with anything you are talking about, or common Asgardians would all have her capacities, and yet, no. That different gods are differently capable is just.. straight up comics, that you have decided to ignore, in order, when asked for actual feats for a character, to talk about a completely different character and just say "gods" a whole bunch.


    It's you, ignoring board standards for weighing showings to keep repeating "gods" over and over and over and over. To the point that you're now saying the Olympians and Asgardians, completely different pantheons no less, are interchangeable. Acting like they all basically have an interchangeable set of abilities, despite that being nothing like the case.

    Direct questions now, Thor being Moondragon's love slave, low showing for Thor? The various times Thor has otherwise been mind controlled, all low showings for Thor?

    Do you have any feats for Loki's psi resistances, or not? And given things like how you presented Thor "throwing off" Moondragon, I'd prefer the actual comics themselves be noted.


    As mentioned in another thread, Thor kicks Phoenix Emma out of his head. But also gets turned off by Chaz, someone much weaker than Phoenix Emma.
    Except getting turned off by Chas is well in line with the sort of stuff that has been done to Thor mentally before then.

    It's mostly you deciding board standards are optional for Asgardians lately, for some reason.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 10-16-2018 at 04:56 AM.

  14. #14
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Thor, vs planetary scale telepaths, has ended up 1) asleep, 2) their love slave. Ares' performance, given the level of power and abilities he has demonstrated for the almost total majority of his career, wildly overperformed to do that and showed a capacity he had never otherwise shown before or since unless you have an example of that, ever. We otherwise have a term for outliers like that.


    The Enchantress, talking about whatever she can do because she's a god, does not translate to anyone else but the Enchantress. No one else gets her feats. We have seen what the "baseline" Asgardian package is and it has nothing to do with anything you are talking about, or common Asgardians would all have her capacities, and yet, no. That different gods are differently capable is just.. straight up comics, that you have decided to ignore, in order, when asked for actual feats for a character, to talk about a completely different character and just say "gods" a whole bunch.


    It's you, ignoring board standards for weighing showings to keep repeating "gods" over and over and over and over. To the point that you're now saying the Olympians and Asgardians, completely different pantheons no less, are interchangeable. Acting like they all basically have an interchangeable set of abilities, despite that being nothing like the case.

    Direct questions now, Thor being Moondragon's love slave, low showing for Thor? The various times Thor has otherwise been mind controlled, all low showings for Thor?

    Do you have any feats for Loki's psi resistances, or not? And given things like how you presented Thor "throwing off" Moondragon, I'd prefer the actual comics themselves be noted.




    Except getting turned off by Chas is well in line with the sort of stuff that has been done to Thor mentally before then.

    It's mostly you deciding board standards are optional for Asgardians lately, for some reason.
    Whatever Pen, I don't have any skin in this game.

    I was providing some feats, and mentioned both sides, with context, as I did so.

    I didn't claim that Thor can no sell Moondragon (quite the opposite in fact) and didn't claim anything that isn't shown on a page, in comics. And in the other thread I specifically state that "Thor's feats are all over the place."

    So, I'll ask you a simple question: where do YOU place Loki's and Thor's mental resistance. It's easy as hell to attack someone else's position without stating your own. But the only way to have a discussion / debate is to both have a position. If my position is "Captain Hammer is class 100" yours shouldn't be "your wrong and you cheat board rules." It should be "I think he's class 2". Then we can go with "here's why."
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta
    "Get off my lawn! ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops." - Sharpandpointies
    "...makes me think the Night King just says "Screw the rules, I have magic money" when it comes to physics." -Captain Morgan

  15. #15
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    And just to add, I spent some time looking, and Loki's best resistance feat I could fine was no-selling Amora. He's got a dozen or so offensive tp feats that o could find.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta
    "Get off my lawn! ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops." - Sharpandpointies
    "...makes me think the Night King just says "Screw the rules, I have magic money" when it comes to physics." -Captain Morgan

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