Invaders (2019)

[capandkirby]

YESSSS! Finally! Thanks for posting these!





To be expected, when he attempts to get in the middle of a fight between Namor and Tony Stark. ;p

I can't believe that Navy guy was attempting to lay hands on Cap!! WTF?

I wasn't expecting the confrontation, and defense, about HydraCap. A nice shared universe, things have consequences, touch by Zdarsky. What happened to Jim Hammond in those scenes? He doesn't get roped into the USO stuff. And always nice to see to see Bucky in action.

As for the rest, they hypocrisy is getting pretty deep on those pages. You'd think Tony Stark would have learned something, or at least felt SOME ... I don't know, contrition or debt to be paid after what he did to the Atlanteans in Civil War.

I am curious about Steve's waffling on his 'friendship' with Namor. He's back to past tense in these pages.

I am sad that we won't be getting any lovely Guice flashbacks this issue.

I was wondering that too... is Jim also doing something covert, like Bucky? I hope so, otherwise that's a rather glaring plot-hole.

I think Admiral lady just put Steve in a bad mood and he was trying to placate her. If I were Steve at this particular point in life, I wouldn't want to be friends with ANYBODY, being entirely over people in general, I'd want to be on a people-less tropical beach with a Mai Tai and a good book.

Maybe we'll get flashbacks later in the issue, at least, I hope so.

This is sort of par for course for Tony when it comes to Namor. Remember when he accused Steve of going on soft on Namor during AvX? I'm just really getting the impression that the two (Tony and Namor) don't like each other. Points to Zdarsky for continuity, there, I guess?

Honestly, no one in this universe should be holding grudges against anybody else considering that each and every character in the MU has been the victim of Bad Storytelling™ at one point or another.

[ImperiusWrecked]

I was wondering that too... is Jim also doing something covert, like Bucky? I hope so, otherwise that's a rather glaring plot-hole.

I think Admiral lady just put Steve in a bad mood and he was trying to placate her. If I were Steve at this particular point in life, I wouldn't want to be friends with ANYBODY, being entirely over people in general, I'd want to be on a people-less tropical beach with a Mai Tai and a good book.

Maybe we'll get flashbacks later in the issue, at least, I hope so.

This is sort of par for course for Tony when it comes to Namor. Remember when he accused Steve of going on soft on Namor during AvX? I'm just really getting the impression that the two (Tony and Namor) don't like each other.

*cackles* That is putting it mildly, most times Namor can't stand Tony, they really do not get along, and he and Tony have fought before, I remember that fight they had about Bruce being sent off into space during Illuminati. Namor calls him the "most irritating Lung Man he had ever met" and also Tony wanted to throw a bomb in the ocean, during x-men red while Namor was charging into battle with them. :/ and After civil war Tony held the Atlanteans in a state of occupation and were going to try and take over because "they were a threat".

Even so, Namor once did say that Tony had to stand up on his own and that he was regal but I feel most times Namor doesn't like him.

I can't wait for this issue to come though! Thanks for the previews.

[capandkirby]

*cackles* That is putting it mildly, most times Namor can't stand Tony, they really do not get along, and he and Tony have fought before, I remember that fight they had about Bruce being sent off into space during Illuminati. Namor calls him the "most irritating Lung Man he had ever met" and also Tony wanted to throw a bomb in the ocean, during x-men red while Namor was charging into battle with them. :/ and After civil war Tony held the Atlanteans in a state of occupation and were going to try and take over because "they were a threat".

Even so, Namor once did say that Tony had to stand up on his own and that he was regal but I feel most times Namor doesn't like him.

I can't wait for this issue to come though! Thanks for the previews.

No problem. I can't wait either.

Makes sense, I guess. Varying personalities in the superhero community, not everyone is going to like everybody. That said, they do have Steve in common, so there's that.

[Reviresco]

I was wondering that too... is Jim also doing something covert, like Bucky? I hope so, otherwise that's a rather glaring plot-hole.

I think Admiral lady just put Steve in a bad mood and he was trying to placate her. If I were Steve at this particular point in life, I wouldn't want to be friends with ANYBODY, being entirely over people in general, I'd want to be on a people-less tropical beach with a Mai Tai and a good book.

Maybe we'll get flashbacks later in the issue, at least, I hope so.

This is sort of par for course for Tony when it comes to Namor. Remember when he accused Steve of going on soft on Namor during AvX?

I'm betting Jim has snuck off for a little recon, himself. Or maybe he's just on the lookout for Namor and the Atlanteans?

I don't know. You know Cap better than I do, but he doesn't strike me as a waffler when it comes to things like friendship ... or tailoring his words to fit his audience. I mean, yes, he couldn't exactly appeal to Namor as an ex-friend in his situation last issue. And it might not have been the height of persuasiveness to tell the admiral that Namor was his friend -- but Cap never struck me as someone that did that sort of thing. Plus, he appears to have wanted to set off the Admiral -- if so, there was no need for the past tense.

I know a lot of it depends on the writer, but I got the same feeling in the last Invaders series. That Cap felt more ... responsibility or duty about Namor than he did friendship. It's Hammond and Bucky who, in different ways, seem more like friends in the last series too. But then you have Bendis, of all people, and Bunn really capturing Namor and Cap's relationship.


I didn't see Guice's name on the cover, so I'm thinking we won't get any flashbacks this issue.


Namor, sure. There was that Phoenix thing that Tony didn't think Steve was considering. And they've been written as really antagonistic for decades, now -- almost lethally so. But Atlantis? He owes them big time. Actually, he owes Namor for that Phoenix 5 thing, now that I think about it. Of course, it's easy to make Stark the heavy, so to speak, in this book. There's too many characters here to explore, to give Stark any more panels.

[capandkirby]

Just dawned on me that another reason Steve could be using the past tense currently is because maybe he thinks Namor is possessed or being heavily influenced by a third party, and therefore not the Namor he knows. Which, to be fair, isn't an idea entirely without merit.

...that or Brevoort just missed the grammar error.

[capandkirby]

I'm betting Jim has snuck off for a little recon, himself. Or maybe he's just on the lookout for Namor and the Atlanteans?

I don't know. You know Cap better than I do, but he doesn't strike me as a waffler when it comes to things like friendship ... or tailoring his words to fit his audience. I mean, yes, he couldn't exactly appeal to Namor as an ex-friend in his situation last issue. And it might not have been the height of persuasiveness to tell the admiral that Namor was his friend -- but Cap never struck me as someone that did that sort of thing. Plus, he appears to have wanted to set off the Admiral -- if so, there was no need for the past tense.

I know a lot of it depends on the writer, but I got the same feeling in the last Invaders series. That Cap felt more ... responsibility or duty about Namor than he did friendship. It's Hammond and Bucky who, in different ways, seem more like friends in the last series too. But then you have Bendis, of all people, and Bunn really capturing Namor and Cap's relationship.


I didn't see Guice's name on the cover, so I'm thinking we won't get any flashbacks this issue.


Namor, sure. There was that Phoenix thing that Tony didn't think Steve was considering. And they've been written as really antagonistic for decades, now -- almost lethally so. But Atlantis? He owes them big time. Actually, he owes Namor for that Phoenix 5 thing, now that I think about it. Of course, it's easy to make Stark the heavy, so to speak, in this book. There's too many characters here to explore, to give Stark any more panels.

Honestly, yeah, it's just who the writer is. There are some writers who, for whatever reason, feel the need to make Steve the quintessential staunch military man capable of exactly one emotion... sternness (which, having been around military my whole life, is utter bs as stereotypes go), and others who give him more depth and allow him to actually like people. I'm sure you can guess, as a Cap connoisseur, which I prefer (hint: give me ALL the emotion!!!!). Zdarsky seems to really like Steve and has given him great depth, so I really don't think he falls into the 'one emotion' Cap style. Especially not with those flashback scenes. I'm sure there is a reason for Steve's slip, or, Brevoort just didn't catch it.

[okiedokiewo]

Does Chip Zdarsky know how to write Tony Stark as anything other than a character that Steve can act morally superior on?

[Reviresco]

*cackles* That is putting it mildly, most times Namor can't stand Tony, they really do not get along, and he and Tony have fought before, I remember that fight they had about Bruce being sent off into space during Illuminati. Namor calls him the "most irritating Lung Man he had ever met" and also Tony wanted to throw a bomb in the ocean, during x-men red while Namor was charging into battle with them. :/ and After civil war Tony held the Atlanteans in a state of occupation and were going to try and take over because "they were a threat".

Even so, Namor once did say that Tony had to stand up on his own and that he was regal but I feel most times Namor doesn't like him.

I can't wait for this issue to come though! Thanks for the previews.

Tony and Namor's relationship has ... worsened over the decades. I don't think it was that bad before, but I'd have to go back and read their meetings. The bit about Namor "standing up" for Tony during his drinking would have happened before the 'modern age.' Both characters were written differently since 2000+, I think. However, after Civil War it went in the toilet, for sure. The argument about shooting Hulk off into space, and then Stark stirring up a war with the Atlanteans to push the SHRA, and then the attempted blockade / occupation of Atlantis ... yeah, I think Namor definitely wanted to end Tony. And then the Phoenix 5 stuff happened. And then the Incursion stuff. Yep. No love lost there.

But from all that, Stark should know better than to threaten Atlantis.

[Reviresco]

Does Chip Zdarsky know how to write Tony Stark as anything other than a character that Steve can act morally superior on?

To be fair, the way Tony has been written in the last decade or so, alot of writers have written alot of characters acting that way towards Tony.

[capandkirby]

Does Chip Zdarsky know how to write Tony Stark as anything other than a character that Steve can act morally superior on?

Not to defend Zdarsky's portrayal of Tony, because I agree he doesn't seem to care for him too much, but Steve isn't exactly morally superior here. I mean, Namor DOES have a bomb that's supposed to wipe-out humanity. That is a serious threat. Steve just has more emotional ties to Namor, ties that Tony does not, in that Namor is his brother-in-arms, and if there is something wrong with Namor, and he can both save Namor and humanity, Steve would rather do that. And honestly, it's looking like Namor has had untreated PTSD the entire time Tony has known him, and it's manifesting itself now in extreme ways, but Steve actually knew Namor BEFORE all of that, so the entire thing here is that Steve has more of a reason to believe Namor can be saved than Stark does. He has insider information, narratively.

[Reviresco]

Just dawned on me that another reason Steve could be using the past tense currently is because maybe he thinks Namor is possessed or being heavily influenced by a third party, and therefore not the Namor he knows. Which, to be fair, isn't an idea entirely without merit.

...that or Brevoort just missed the grammar error.

It would be nice if SOMEONE said something to that effect. If SOMEONE actually mentioned the weird eyes. So, annoying.

Honestly, yeah, it's just who the writer is. There are some writers who, for whatever reason, feel the need to make Steve the quintessential staunch military man capable of exactly one emotion... sternness (which, having been around military my whole life, is utter bs as stereotypes go), and others who give him more depth and allow him to actually like people. I'm sure you can guess, as a Cap connoisseur, which I prefer (hint: give me ALL the emotion!!!!). Zdarsky seems to really like Steve and has given him great depth, so I really don't think he falls into the 'one emotion' Cap style. Especially not with those flashback scenes. I'm sure there is a reason for Steve's slip, or, Brevoort just didn't catch it.

I agree. I mean, you can see how Namor and Steve interact in the flashbacks is different than how they react in the present. Though Cap's still cooler than Jim Hammond in the flashbacks, and it is interesting to see how all the Invaders express themselves differently.

But Steve also said it to Bucky in the first issue. That Namor WAS their friend. Hammond had to remind Cap that Namor IS their friend, before he agreed to help.

I'm thinking that Namor isn't the only one that is going to change in this story. Hopefully, at the end, Cap realizes what his relationship with Namor is, and stops thinking of him as a problem, and learns to appreciate their friendship, odd as it is.

[capandkirby]

It would be nice if SOMEONE said something to that effect. If SOMEONE actually mentioned the weird eyes. So, annoying.




I agree. I mean, you can see how Namor and Steve interact in the flashbacks is different than how they react in the present. Though Cap's still cooler than Jim Hammond in the flashbacks, and it is interesting to see how all the Invaders express themselves differently.

But Steve also said it to Bucky in the first issue. That Namor WAS their friend. Hammond had to remind Cap that Namor IS their friend, before he agreed to help.

I'm thinking that Namor isn't the only one that is going to change in this story. Hopefully, at the end, Cap realizes what his relationship with Namor is, and stops thinking of him as a problem, and learns to appreciate their friendship, odd as it is.

I agree! I think it's a damn shame that the comics have almost dropped this friendship almost altogether in recent years, except for this new run, of course. I'd love them to devote a little more effort to maintaining it in future storytelling. And if this story is the gateway leading to that, giving Steve an epiphany that he probably should have realized what Namor was going through sooner, I'm all for it!

[Reviresco]

Not to defend Zdarsky's portrayal of Tony, because I agree he doesn't seem to care for him too much, but Steve isn't exactly morally superior here. I mean, Namor DOES have a bomb that's supposed to wipe-out humanity. That is a serious threat. Steve just has more emotional ties to Namor, ties that Tony does not, in that Namor is his brother-in-arms, and if there is something wrong with Namor, and he can both save Namor and humanity, Steve would rather do that. And honestly, it's looking like Namor has had untreated PTSD the entire time Tony has known him, and it's manifesting itself now in extreme ways, but Steve actually knew Namor BEFORE all of that, so the entire thing here is that Steve has more of a reason to believe Namor can be saved than Stark does. He has insider information, narratively.

Yes, and the US Navy apparently has undersea weapons to aggressively start WWIII with the Atlanteans. Roxxon apparently has something and are invading Atlantean waters. As I said, the hypocrisy is getting deep on these pages.

The Invaders, reasonably, are trying to head off WWIII.

I don't think Namor has had untreated PTSD since the war. He's just always been an angry ... self confident ruler who wants what's best for his country. I do think there's SOMETHING that's triggering his war experiences and abusing them to it's own ends.

[capandkirby]

Yes, and the US Navy apparently has undersea weapons to aggressively start WWIII with the Atlanteans. Roxxon apparently has something and are invading Atlantean waters. As I said, the hypocrisy is getting deep on these pages.

The Invaders, reasonably, are trying to head WWIII.

I don't think Namor has had untreated PTSD since the war. He's just always been an angry ... self confident ruler who wants what's best for his country. I do think there's SOMETHING that's triggering his war experiences and abusing them to it's own ends.

Yeah, Namor has his reasons. I mean, I wouldn't build a bomb that wiped out an entire species, but he absolutely has valid reasons to be pissed. The scenes from that whaling ship and what happened to the Atlanteans haunt me.

I sort of have a theory about what is going on with Namor based on what we've seen thus far in other books: we know he didn't approve of the nuclear bombs being dropped, we know he was caught in Nagasaki when they dropped one, pretty traumatizing stuff, and we know that Xavier was involved in this somehow, so my theory is that Namor, despite getting his memories back after his decades long amnesia, is still repressing some of his more horrific memories (that or he went to Xavier and had him help Namor repress them for Namor's own sanity) and those highly traumatic memories are manifesting themselves in "Machan". They WANT Namor to deal with them and not stay tucked away as a dark part of his brain.

My husband used to watch those stupid reality ghost shows which are all drama with no empirical evidence. And sometimes I'd catch a bit of an episode if I was in-between looking for something to read. And in one of them they made the claim that poltergeists aren't actually ghosts but the manifestation of an intense trauma a person was repressing for whatever reason - like say someone who felt the responsibly of running an entire kingdom and therefore couldn't give in to 'weakness' - and wouldn't otherwise let out. Sort of wondering if Zdarsky is using that theory for inspiration here.

[Reviresco]

I agree! I think it's a damn shame that the comics have almost dropped this friendship almost altogether in recent years, except for this new run, of course. I'd love them to devote a little more effort to maintaining it in future storytelling. And if this story is the gateway leading to that, giving Steve an epiphany that he probably should have realized what Namor was going through sooner, I'm all for it!

I have my suspicions about why that is, but I'm short of time right now.

On the bright side, Patrick Zircher said on his twitter that he was doing a Cap and Subby cover. I'm not sure what it is for or if it is a variant, but keeping my fingers crossed it is for more about the pair.