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Thread: Invaders (2019)

  1. #631
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    Tony and Namor haven't had a good track record for years now and this isn't making things better.
    Years? Try almost sixty years. Iron Man and Namor have been going at it since the Silver Age. I don't think he views Namor much different than he views The Mandarin or Living Laser. There's a good chance that there is some sort of mental influence at work here, but the reason that it's working as easily as it is, is likely because Namor has been an unofficial member of Iron Man's rogues-gallery since almost the dawn of the Marvel Universe. At this point it doesn't take much nudging to get those two to try to kill each other for the fiftieth time.

  2. #632
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    Years? Try almost sixty years. Iron Man and Namor have been going at it since the Silver Age. I don't think he views Namor much different than he views The Mandarin or Living Laser. There's a good chance that there is some sort of mental influence at work here, but the reason that it's working as easily as it is, is likely because Namor has been an unofficial member of Iron Man's rogues-gallery since almost the dawn of the Marvel Universe. At this point it doesn't take much nudging to get those two to try to kill each other for the fiftieth time.
    Most of the times the silver age fights were misunderstanding fights, true Tony and Namor were never best buds, but after civil war and after the 2007 submariner series where Tony was trying to blame and occupy Atlantis, things just kept going downhill for those two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    Zdarsky leaves clues, IMO. I think capandkirby is right. Tony is using the same phrasing as others, like the Russians, concerning the Atlanteans. Like, when I went back and read #5, and NOW, I see that Machan was the one yelling for Namor to behead Jim, "For Atlantis!"

    Speaking of Zdarsky's clues and details ... can I just say how much I loved seeing the Latverians sitting next to the Atlanteans at the UN? LOL!
    Doom and Namor supervillain team up when?! lol, I thought it was a great little detail too!



    Chip does like to leave clues, also they referenced Toro and Jackie in the early issues and in this one we finally see them, but yeah there is something more going on here.
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

  3. #633
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    Years? Try almost sixty years. Iron Man and Namor have been going at it since the Silver Age. I don't think he views Namor much different than he views The Mandarin or Living Laser. There's a good chance that there is some sort of mental influence at work here, but the reason that it's working as easily as it is, is likely because Namor has been an unofficial member of Iron Man's rogues-gallery since almost the dawn of the Marvel Universe. At this point it doesn't take much nudging to get those two to try to kill each other for the fiftieth time.
    I haven't read tons of Iron Man books, but that's not the impression I've gotten. No one, including Tony, thinks the Mandarin and Namor are practically the same. Their intense dislike of each other is pretty much a modern (the last 10 or 15 years) era, since Civil War. Their few Silver Age / Bronze Age encounters were, as IW said, they typical misunderstanding, but in the end, mutually respect, fights. Pre-Civil War, short of one AU comic, I don't think they were ever trying to kill each other -- and even that AU wasn't pre-mediated, IIRC.



    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    Most of the times the silver age fights were misunderstanding fights, true Tony and Namor were never best buds, but after civil war and after the 2007 submariner series where Tony was trying to blame and occupy Atlantis, things just kept going downhill for those two.
    Exactly.




    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    Doom and Namor supervillain team up when?! lol, I thought it was a great little detail too!

    That's the panel!

    Though, as a friend pointed out, WTF is Russia talking about? The "strike at Atlantis with the full force of the UN"! Since when does the UN have any strike force? Much less one capable of taking out Atlantis?


    Also, does the flashback with Namor and the Skull seem odd? I mean, why did Namor freeze up? Are the flashbacks actually Namor's memories? Early on, I think Zdarsky was writing them like Namor's dreams, wasn't he?
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  4. #634
    Spectacular Member Doombot's Avatar
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    Although I'm enjoying this book, I'm not sure how I feel about Namor being taken down this road again. Can he ever not be twisted up by memory and emotional issues and made into some sort of misguided, unwilling supervillain? Is he ever going to be a hero again? Almost nothing he does seems to be under his own power or will. He's always the victim of his own psychological problems, unable to see past or let go of traumatic events from his life. They don't treat Steve like this. Namor is the tragic villain and has to be put down for the umpteenth time.

  5. #635
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doombot View Post
    Although I'm enjoying this book, I'm not sure how I feel about Namor being taken down this road again. Can he ever not be twisted up by memory and emotional issues and made into some sort of misguided, unwilling supervillain? Is he ever going to be a hero again? Almost nothing he does seems to be under his own power or will. He's always the victim of his own psychological problems, unable to see past or let go of traumatic events from his life. They don't treat Steve like this. Namor is the tragic villain and has to be put down for the umpteenth time.
    Yes, that is the impression we get about Namor.

    Namor is going to have a popularity problem out in the world, because he is a no-nonsense ruler of a people that donít have a situation the surface people relate too. Surface people love water sports, laying telecommunication cables, fishing, dumping in the oceans, using the oceans as a toilet, setting off nukes to find out their effects in the sea. Nobody considered the oceans as sovereign to anybody, and only a fish man like Namor is standing up and calling ďnoĒ, when nobody wants to hear it. (I donít know why Sue Richards isnít more proactive in this regard, because sheís Queen of one section of sea people).

    The problem is, Atlantis is an uncomfortable reality, and nobody has made a Treaty with King Namor as to the proper relationship with the oceans. I donít think Namor could make that Treaty with everyone. I think the surface world countries all have a tradition with the sea, that they donít want to negotiate away. Free transition by ships, trade, fishing, mining, telecommunication. How is all this going to be negotiated with a sea-people? It is 500 different Treaties which is a hell to administer and maintain. It really needs a war.

  6. #636
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    You mean after the Avengers invaded a sovereign county to take their prisoners, who were being held for crimes against their citizens in their own territory? I don't think it's entirely understandable for the Avengers to amp up their aggression against Atlantis, when they were the ones who were partly responsible for jacking up the Atlanteans in the first place. Again, it's basically a page from Civil War and AvX. Let's instigate hostilities with Atlantis, and then blame them when they respond.

    But again, Stark IS acting more extreme, even more than he normally does around the Atlanteans. IIRC, he was advocating attacking Atlantis first. And in this issue he's completely disregarding the lives of both Atlantean and surface breathers, in pursuit of Namor. Captain Marvel had to physically keep him from attacking Namor, because he couldn't see that Namor was actually saving lives. There's a reason why Cap reminds Tony that there are altered airbreathers in Atlantis.

    And of course, Namor isn't acting normal, either.
    Namors response to what the Avengers did is far too disproportionate to really be a justification for what he did. If you have a problem with the Avengers, then attack the Avengers. The people Namor effected really had nothing to do with it.

  7. #637
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Namors response to what the Avengers did is far too disproportionate to really be a justification for what he did. If you have a problem with the Avengers, then attack the Avengers. The people Namor effected really had nothing to do with it.
    Namor's direct response to the Avengers' invasion and violation of Atlantean sovereignty was to reclaim their arguably rightful jurisdiction / justice. How is that disproportionate? If anything, it was far less invasive, destructive and confrontational than what the Avengers did.

    What's happening in the Invaders isn't a direct response, or attack on the Avengers -- which is why I said they were partially responsible. But the actions of the Avengers, both when they invaded Atlantis, and when whatever happened in their conflict with the Celestials, where apparently they couldn't be bothered to remember that one fell on Atlantis, instigated Namor's decision to do something about the surface world and their treatment of his living environment and their total disregard for his people who live there. The business with Roxxon, and the Avengers siding with Roxxon, was another thing. Is it a disproportionate response that Namor is kicking air breathers off his lawn? IIRC, he didn't kill anyone, in fact he specifically saved air breathers on the attack on Hydropolis.


    Tony's reaction to all this, BEFORE the transformation of surface people, was 'Namor's kicking us off his lawn! Let's just blow up Atlantis and kill them all before they invade our lawn.' That isn't proportional, IMO, or portraying Tony as someone with any experience of Namor. Cap and the Invaders were taking the less murderous and warlike route, and trying to resolve the situation with negotiations -- which is how things have been resolved with Namor repeatedly.

    Again, I think both Namor and Tony are acting OOC. We know Namor is being influenced, and I tend to agree with those that think that Tony is also. Tony has pulled some major dickery with Atlantis in the past, but I think / hope he's learned from that and isn't doubling down and actually trying to destroy Atlantis.
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  8. #638
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doombot View Post
    Although I'm enjoying this book, I'm not sure how I feel about Namor being taken down this road again. Can he ever not be twisted up by memory and emotional issues and made into some sort of misguided, unwilling supervillain? Is he ever going to be a hero again? Almost nothing he does seems to be under his own power or will. He's always the victim of his own psychological problems, unable to see past or let go of traumatic events from his life. They don't treat Steve like this. Namor is the tragic villain and has to be put down for the umpteenth time.
    I agree, for the most part. I'm tired of seeing Namor under the influence of something else and the victim, made into something he's not. But I think his past will always be with him, and actually, I wanted to see the horrible crap the character was put through with Hickman, both in New Avengers and AvX dealt with, something that still hasn't happened. But at this point, after this, I may just want it shoved into the "resolved off panel folder" rather than see this happen yet again.

    Sadly, I fear we aren't going to Namor acting fully or acknowledged as the hero he is, until he gets his own book again.
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  9. #639
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    Namor's direct response to the Avengers' invasion and violation of Atlantean sovereignty was to reclaim their arguably rightful jurisdiction / justice. How is that disproportionate? If anything, it was far less invasive, destructive and confrontational than what the Avengers did.

    What's happening in the Invaders isn't a direct response, or attack on the Avengers -- which is why I said they were partially responsible. But the actions of the Avengers, both when they invaded Atlantis, and when whatever happened in their conflict with the Celestials, where apparently they couldn't be bothered to remember that one fell on Atlantis, instigated Namor's decision to do something about the surface world and their treatment of his living environment and their total disregard for his people who live there. The business with Roxxon, and the Avengers siding with Roxxon, was another thing. Is it a disproportionate response that Namor is kicking air breathers off his lawn? IIRC, he didn't kill anyone, in fact he specifically saved air breathers on the attack on Hydropolis.


    Tony's reaction to all this, BEFORE the transformation of surface people, was 'Namor's kicking us off his lawn! Let's just blow up Atlantis and kill them all before they invade our lawn.' That isn't proportional, IMO, or portraying Tony as someone with any experience of Namor. Cap and the Invaders were taking the less murderous and warlike route, and trying to resolve the situation with negotiations -- which is how things have been resolved with Namor repeatedly.

    Again, I think both Namor and Tony are acting OOC. We know Namor is being influenced, and I tend to agree with those that think that Tony is also. Tony has pulled some major dickery with Atlantis in the past, but I think / hope he's learned from that and isn't doubling down and actually trying to destroy Atlantis.
    Short answer YES turning innocent surface dwellers into water breathers is a disproportionate response. Whatever one may feel about Stark or the Avengers, Namors victims there didn't deserve that. So that's all on Namor, not Stark or the Avengers. He crossed a line there.

  10. #640
    Incredible Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    I think you're both right. Everyone involved has had horrible and extreme reactions to things. The Avengers had no right to a) go to Atlantis without being invited nor b) interfere with whatever Atlantis' form of adjudication is in regards to the Roxxon employees who murdered Atlanteans in cold blood. Namor went WAY over the line by developing and deploying a weapon that changes people into Atlanteans. But I think all of this is intentional on Aaron and Zdarsky's part. Namor and the Avengers BOTH (and the Squadron Supreme, and the Winter Guard, etc.) are chess pieces being moved by Mephisto. It's like the Vegas thing all over again, influence people to act on their baser instincts and impulses, then claim their souls.

    Which is kind of why I think Aaron is bringing in Moon Knight to the fray. Because of his own experiences with possession/multiple personalities he'll take one look at Namor and know exactly what's going on here.

  11. #641
    Incredible Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    I think you're both right. Everyone involved has had horrible and extreme reactions to things. The Avengers had no right to a) go to Atlantis without being invited nor b) interfere with whatever Atlantis' form of adjudication is in regards to the Roxxon employees who murdered Atlanteans in cold blood. Namor went WAY over the line by developing and deploying a weapon that changes people into Atlanteans. But I think all of this is intentional on Aaron and Zdarsky's part. Namor and the Avengers BOTH (and the Squadron Supreme, and the Winter Guard, etc.) are chess pieces being moved by Mephisto. It's like the Vegas thing all over again, influence people to act on their baser instincts and impulses, then claim their souls.

    Which is kind of why I think Aaron is bringing in Moon Knight to the fray. Because of his own experiences with possession/multiple personalities he'll take one look at Namor and know exactly what's going on here.
    Also, there's the "god" connection. With Zdarsky bringing in the serpent crown and placing it on Namor's head, enter Set stage left, and with Aaron bringing in Moon Knight, there's (potential) Khonshu? Wonder how THAT works into it all. Is Mephisto trying to raise the gods?

  12. #642
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    Also, there's the "god" connection. With Zdarsky bringing in the serpent crown and placing it on Namor's head, enter Set stage left, and with Aaron bringing in Moon Knight, there's (potential) Khonshu? Wonder how THAT works into it all. Is Mephisto trying to raise the gods?
    I'm not sure even Mephisto would want Set coming into play. Gods are one thing, but Elder Gods I think are a generation up on Mephsito.

    Though I suppose they might not directly use Set in the storyline. Serpent crown is used all the time without Set actually showing up directly in a story. But yeah... it definately is playing with fire.

  13. #643
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    Also, there's the "god" connection. With Zdarsky bringing in the serpent crown and placing it on Namor's head, enter Set stage left, and with Aaron bringing in Moon Knight, there's (potential) Khonshu? Wonder how THAT works into it all. Is Mephisto trying to raise the gods?
    Having in mind that Mephisto has also affected the Champions in a negative way, I suspect all of this could be the prelude towards an event centered in Mephisto.

  14. #644
    Incredible Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnrevenge View Post
    Having in mind that Mephisto has also affected the Champions in a negative way, I suspect all of this could be the prelude towards an event centered in Mephisto.
    You're definitely right there. Based on Mephisto's chess board in Avengers #21, whatever his plans are extends beyond Avengers/Atlantis/god raising/Champions and goes all the way to Starbrand.

    (Any guess on the giant head? Looks like the Kree Supreme Intelligence to me).

    snakecrown.jpg

    T'Challa represents the Avengers. Hyperion, the Squadron Supreme. Ursa Major, the Winter Guard. The rest: Namor, Odin, Starbrand, Moon Knight, Ghost Rider, Malekith and we'll just say Giant Head™, what do these things have in common? The only thing I can figure is that most of these characters have access to gods and/or unlimited power.

  15. #645
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Short answer YES turning innocent surface dwellers into water breathers is a disproportionate response. Whatever one may feel about Stark or the Avengers, Namors victims there didn't deserve that. So that's all on Namor, not Stark or the Avengers. He crossed a line there.
    Of course Namor crossed a line, I wasn't arguing that. In fact I really dislike him being the one who turned people into water breathers because of what happened with Betty Dean. She and others were turned to water breathers against their will, and the Atlanteans rejected them. Namor even once said, he did not think his people could accept them. This is not something Namor would ever do if he was in his right mind. It makes me wonder what Zdarsky will do with the fallout.

    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    I think you're both right. Everyone involved has had horrible and extreme reactions to things. The Avengers had no right to a) go to Atlantis without being invited nor b) interfere with whatever Atlantis' form of adjudication is in regards to the Roxxon employees who murdered Atlanteans in cold blood. Namor went WAY over the line by developing and deploying a weapon that changes people into Atlanteans. But I think all of this is intentional on Aaron and Zdarsky's part. Namor and the Avengers BOTH (and the Squadron Supreme, and the Winter Guard, etc.) are chess pieces being moved by Mephisto. It's like the Vegas thing all over again, influence people to act on their baser instincts and impulses, then claim their souls.

    Which is kind of why I think Aaron is bringing in Moon Knight to the fray. Because of his own experiences with possession/multiple personalities he'll take one look at Namor and know exactly what's going on here.
    I keep saying if they just bring a telepath, like Emma, in then she could totally see that Xavier did something to Namor and try to sort it out. Everything is being ramped up for something. I keep thinking that this might be a lead up to an event centered around Set and the Atlanteans again like Atlantis Attacks, but hopefully it would involve more Atlanteans than the last event and actually have Namor alive and not fake dead through this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    I agree, for the most part. I'm tired of seeing Namor under the influence of something else and the victim, made into something he's not. But I think his past will always be with him, and actually, I wanted to see the horrible crap the character was put through with Hickman, both in New Avengers and AvX dealt with, something that still hasn't happened. But at this point, after this, I may just want it shoved into the "resolved off panel folder" rather than see this happen yet again.

    Sadly, I fear we aren't going to Namor acting fully or acknowledged as the hero he is, until he gets his own book again.
    I hope we get an announcement soon, because if Marvel doesn't announce a book this year then we can only look forward to another writer liking Namor enough to pick him up when/if Invaders ends.
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

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