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Thread: Invaders (2019)

  1. #616
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    And speaking of Mephisto's chess board, Moon Knight is also on it. That's interesting.

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    As a Moon Knight fan, I was definately happy to see that. Guy hasn't gotten a lot of spotlight in recent years, so him being involved in a major Avengers story is pretty cool.

  2. #617
    Incredible Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    As a Moon Knight fan, I was definately happy to see that. Guy hasn't gotten a lot of spotlight in recent years, so him being involved in a major Avengers story is pretty cool.
    I suspect he may be the next Avenger to fill Blade's spot.

  3. #618
    IRON MAN Tony Stark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Honestly its a bit surprising Tony is being so hard on Steve. Technically T'Challa is in charge of the Avengers. So it's not actually Steve's call.
    I think itís because Tony and Steve have a closer relationship. Tony has been telling Cap from even before the Phoenix 5 that Namor would do something like this, but Cap always thinks he can talk Namor out of it. Namor will always lookout for his people before he is an invader or friend to Cap.
    " I've learned that free will isn't a gift-it's muscle that needs to be exercised-and only when it's in peak condition-is a man truly awake" TONY STARK

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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    As a Moon Knight fan, I was definately happy to see that. Guy hasn't gotten a lot of spotlight in recent years, so him being involved in a major Avengers story is pretty cool.

    Didn't he have yet another ongoing series last year?
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  5. #620
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    Didn't he have yet another ongoing series last year?
    By spotlight, I mean getting involved in the "main event" so to speak. He does his own thing in his own book, but rarely gets involved in any really high profile stories. And that's sort of understandable since he's mostly a B list street level character (and I say that with love). Avengers books tend to be sort of the spine of the entire marvel universe, so MK being involved with that is kind of a big deal. Or potentially a big deal at least.

  6. #621
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
    I think it’s because Tony and Steve have a closer relationship. Tony has been telling Cap from even before the Phoenix 5 that Namor would do something like this, but Cap always thinks he can talk Namor out of it. Namor will always lookout for his people before he is an invader or friend to Cap.
    I get that Stark likely has a long history not agreeing with Steve. Just saying that because Steve isn't in charge of the Avengers, in THIS instance at least it's not his fault if the Avengers didn't act. In the least Stark should be mad at both. And maybe he is mad at T'Challa and we just don't see it on panel.

  7. #622
    IRON MAN Tony Stark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I get that Stark likely has a long history not agreeing with Steve. Just saying that because Steve isn't in charge of the Avengers, in THIS instance at least it's not his fault if the Avengers didn't act. In the least Stark should be mad at both. And maybe he is mad at T'Challa and we just don't see it on panel.
    Very good points. The Avengers started to help after the bombs happened. I’m really intrigued to see how it goes from here.
    " I've learned that free will isn't a gift-it's muscle that needs to be exercised-and only when it's in peak condition-is a man truly awake" TONY STARK

  8. #623
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Obviously he's not happy about a situation where his body got blown up. But that's not the same thing as not being happy with what Stark is doing. If that were the case, I would imagine he would flat out say so rather than just give Stark the silent treatment.
    What exactly could Jim do? Tell Tony no? Like I said, currently Tony has all the power over Jim. You can't claim that Jim is happy and over the moon over his new body any more than I can claim that he isn't. We have differing opinions and my own says that Jim would hate this and that this was a deliberate attempt by Tony to turn Jim into a weapon. He gave no consideration over Jim's emotional state or preference. Either way it's moot point, it's already done and now if Jim does go after Namor and hurt him, I wouldn't be surprised if it was Tony programming him to take Namor down. Remember that Jim is the one who wanted to save Namor, he got Steve and the others together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
    I think itís because Tony and Steve have a closer relationship. Tony has been telling Cap from even before the Phoenix 5 that Namor would do something like this, but Cap always thinks he can talk Namor out of it. Namor will always lookout for his people before he is an invader or friend to Cap.
    When exactly did Tony tell Cap that Namor would do something like this? Namor has always looked out for his own people, but as many times as Atlantis has attacked the surface (usually justified) Namor has also stopped attacks to the surface from the seas or other threats. Namor doesn't just do things without a reason. Also the in the Phoenix 5 Namor is possessed, here Namor is under some unknown influence. I dislike how Namor being not himself is taken that he should be blamed for it. Tony and Namor haven't had a good track record for years now and this isn't making things better.
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

  9. #624
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    What exactly could Jim do? Tell Tony no? Like I said, currently Tony has all the power over Jim. You can't claim that Jim is happy and over the moon over his new body any more than I can claim that he isn't. We have differing opinions and my own says that Jim would hate this and that this was a deliberate attempt by Tony to turn Jim into a weapon. He gave no consideration over Jim's emotional state or preference. Either way it's moot point, it's already done and now if Jim does go after Namor and hurt him, I wouldn't be surprised if it was Tony programming him to take Namor down. Remember that Jim is the one who wanted to save Namor, he got Steve and the others together.



    When exactly did Tony tell Cap that Namor would do something like this? Namor has always looked out for his own people, but as many times as Atlantis has attacked the surface (usually justified) Namor has also stopped attacks to the surface from the seas or other threats. Namor doesn't just do things without a reason. Also the in the Phoenix 5 Namor is possessed, here Namor is under some unknown influence. I dislike how Namor being not himself is taken that he should be blamed for it. Tony and Namor haven't had a good track record for years now and this isn't making things better.
    If he's against Stark doing it then yeah... in the least just say no. If Jim is so against what Stark is doing, why wouldn't he object? And if Stark does it anyways then I agree that's pretty messed up.

  10. #625
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    When exactly did Tony tell Cap that Namor would do something like this? Namor has always looked out for his own people, but as many times as Atlantis has attacked the surface (usually justified) Namor has also stopped attacks to the surface from the seas or other threats. Namor doesn't just do things without a reason. Also the in the Phoenix 5 Namor is possessed, here Namor is under some unknown influence. I dislike how Namor being not himself is taken that he should be blamed for it. Tony and Namor haven't had a good track record for years now and this isn't making things better.
    It was in an issue of New Avengers were Tony was basically telling Cap that he foresaw Namor doing something that he couldn't come back from. Cap taught he could talk Namor out of doing what he was doing as a member of the P5, because they were Invaders. I know he was under the influence of the Phoenix Force. I'm just stating what happened. http://www.comicbookdb.com/issue.php?ID=255107
    Last edited by Tony Stark; 07-17-2019 at 04:19 PM.
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  11. #626
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
    I think it’s because Tony and Steve have a closer relationship. Tony has been telling Cap from even before the Phoenix 5 that Namor would do something like this, but Cap always thinks he can talk Namor out of it. Namor will always lookout for his people before he is an invader or friend to Cap.
    No, that was AFTER Tony split the Phoenix Force and Namor (and the other Phoenix 5) were infected.

    And in the past, there's been plenty of times where Namor decided looking out for his people and working with the Invaders, Cap, the Avengers, the X-Men, the FF, etc., was the same thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    When exactly did Tony tell Cap that Namor would do something like this? Namor has always looked out for his own people, but as many times as Atlantis has attacked the surface (usually justified) Namor has also stopped attacks to the surface from the seas or other threats. Namor doesn't just do things without a reason. Also the in the Phoenix 5 Namor is possessed, here Namor is under some unknown influence. I dislike how Namor being not himself is taken that he should be blamed for it. Tony and Namor haven't had a good track record for years now and this isn't making things better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
    It was in an issue of New Avengers were Tony was basically telling Cap that he foresaw Namor doing something that he couldn't come back from. Cap taught he could talk Namor out of doing what he was doing as a member of the P5, because they were Invaders. I know he was under the influence of the Phoenix Force. I'm just stating what happened. http://www.comicbookdb.com/issue.php?ID=255107
    Right. But that happened AFTER Namor had a portion of the Phoenix force. And Namor, even under the sway of the Phoenix force, was influenced by his relationship with Cap directly because of their Invaders days. He showed up alone. He spoke with Cap. And didn't take him prisoner or anything.

    And basically, the whole 'plot' of AvX was Tony and the Avengers fighting the Phoenix 5 because they 'foresaw' a bad end to the matter... and then they proceeded to do all in their power to make that bad end happen. It's also what Tony has done with the Atlanteans since Civil War; which is why Tony doesn't have a leg to stand on with Cap... or anyone, when it comes to dealing with the Atlanteans. Why in the world would Cap, or anyone, listen to Tony, when he clearly has it out for Atlantis and Namor?

    All that said, I still agree. Zdarsky is writing Tony as far more aggressive in his antagonism towards Namor and Atlantis than is normal.
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  12. #627
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    No, that was AFTER Tony split the Phoenix Force and Namor (and the other Phoenix 5) were infected.

    And in the past, there's been plenty of times where Namor decided looking out for his people and working with the Invaders, Cap, the Avengers, the X-Men, the FF, etc., was the same thing.







    Right. But that happened AFTER Namor had a portion of the Phoenix force. And Namor, even under the sway of the Phoenix force, was influenced by his relationship with Cap directly because of their Invaders days. He showed up alone. He spoke with Cap. And didn't take him prisoner or anything.

    And basically, the whole 'plot' of AvX was Tony and the Avengers fighting the Phoenix 5 because they 'foresaw' a bad end to the matter... and then they proceeded to do all in their power to make that bad end happen. It's also what Tony has done with the Atlanteans since Civil War; which is why Tony doesn't have a leg to stand on with Cap... or anyone, when it comes to dealing with the Atlanteans. Why in the world would Cap, or anyone, listen to Tony, when he clearly has it out for Atlantis and Namor?

    All that said, I still agree. Zdarsky is writing Tony as far more aggressive in his antagonism towards Namor and Atlantis than is normal.
    In all fairness though, given what's been going on with Namor and the Atlanteans since Aarons Avengers run, a more agressive than normal stance towards the Atlanteans is understandable. What's going on is definately NOT normal. Stark is acting more extreme than usual because Namor is acting more extreme than usual.

  13. #628
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    In all fairness though, given what's been going on with Namor and the Atlanteans since Aarons Avengers run, a more agressive than normal stance towards the Atlanteans is understandable. What's going on is definately NOT normal. Stark is acting more extreme than usual because Namor is acting more extreme than usual.

    You mean after the Avengers invaded a sovereign county to take their prisoners, who were being held for crimes against their citizens in their own territory? I don't think it's entirely understandable for the Avengers to amp up their aggression against Atlantis, when they were the ones who were partly responsible for jacking up the Atlanteans in the first place. Again, it's basically a page from Civil War and AvX. Let's instigate hostilities with Atlantis, and then blame them when they respond.

    But again, Stark IS acting more extreme, even more than he normally does around the Atlanteans. IIRC, he was advocating attacking Atlantis first. And in this issue he's completely disregarding the lives of both Atlantean and surface breathers, in pursuit of Namor. Captain Marvel had to physically keep him from attacking Namor, because he couldn't see that Namor was actually saving lives. There's a reason why Cap reminds Tony that there are altered airbreathers in Atlantis.

    And of course, Namor isn't acting normal, either.
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  14. #629
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    I agree that both of them are acting extreme. However while we still don't know exactly what is going on with Machan and his influence on Namor, we don't have any narrative of why Tony might be acting this way. For now, Tony keeps targeting the Atlanteans, pushing for a fight.
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

  15. #630
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    I agree that both of them are acting extreme. However while we still don't know exactly what is going on with Machan and his influence on Namor, we don't have any narrative of why Tony might be acting this way. For now, Tony keeps targeting the Atlanteans, pushing for a fight.
    Zdarsky leaves clues, IMO. I think capandkirby is right. Tony is using the same phrasing as others, like the Russians, concerning the Atlanteans. Like, when I went back and read #5, and NOW, I see that Machan was the one yelling for Namor to behead Jim, "For Atlantis!"

    Speaking of Zdarsky's clues and details ... can I just say how much I loved seeing the Latverians sitting next to the Atlanteans at the UN? LOL!
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