Invaders (2019)

[Winterboy]

Invaders is AWESOME.

[Reviresco]

I had completely forgotten about Namor's amnesia prior to this book. In my head, for absolutely no reason, I think I created a mythical backstory where he rescinded back to the oceans after World War II and didn't feel compelled to return until fatefully encountering the Fantastic Four. At some point, I started accepting that as fact.

Makes me wonder what other fictions I've tied to characters/stories that aren't true...

Everyone has their own headcanon.

Mine is that Namor did return to the oceans and Atlantis and had all kinds of amazing underwater adventures while Tha-Korr or his mother was still alive. That his encounter with Destiny (heh) happened shortly before the FF origin, whatever date the sliding timeline gives to that, instead of the freaking 1950s Marvel seems to want to saddle him with -- which absolutely no sense whatsoever.

[capandkirby]

Namor did go back to the oceans after WWll, where he had many adventures and such but then he was mind wiped by a villain called Destiny who sends him to New York where he wanders homeless for years until the FF. Namor's amnesia was retconned in this years Marvel Comics Presents, and from what I read int he preview (THANKS for them CapandKirby!!!) he still didn't remember who he was, Nay probably recognized him when he tried to help her, I'm guessing most likely because she grew up with pictures of him and the Invaders and her dad telling her about Namor, whom she is named for, and she had him bring her home. Maybe she seemed familiar to Namor and that is why he approached her.

I'm so glad to have butch's art for the flashbacks. I bet Namor probably gets his memories back somehow during his time with the Petersons but then how did he lose them again? Can't wait for the next comic.

Edit: No wait, I misread you CapandKirby, In the beginning of Marvel comics presents Namor is in Atlantis, where it was destoryed after the war, maybe this fits in a timeline where its just after all the other invaders disbanded but before the final end of the war, maybe those atlanteans called him home because of the destruction and then he went on to that final story in Marvel Comics Presents? I'm just trying to fit things to the new timeline.

Yeah, after reading Marvel Comics Presents #1, I had assumed they were retconning the cause of Namor's amnesia. It looked, to me, like Marvel was trying to forget the All-Winners and Jeff Mace era completely, and place Namor's amnesia in 1945. Here's how I read Namor's part of Marvel Comics Presents #1:

Namor is in the ruins of Atlantis after Hitler had died, but the US and Japan are still at war. The US tries to get him to rejoin the fight, and they send him on a wild goose chase to get him out of the way of what they're really planning.

Hiroshima happens while Namor is on this wild goose chase, Namor is PISSED when he finds out about it. He does not support the use of nuclear weapons. He finds out that the US is going to drop a second one. Finds out where. Rushes to stop it. Does not get there in time, he is there, at ground zero, when the bomb hits Nagasaki, and that is what caused his amnesia.

...but apparently it didn't, I guess, because in the first three pages of the Invaders #4 preview, Namor still has his memories? I don't know what they're trying to do here, to be honest. Maybe the Marvel Comics Presents story isn't part of canon?

I hate to say it, because I know we all treat Chuck Austen's name like it is Voldemort, but this is all VERY reminiscent of his Cap story. That Namor was a part of. Because remember how Namor sent Hanna, the Atlantean, to protect and guard Steve because he expected foul play? In that story the US intentionally put Steve on the ice because they knew he wouldn't approve of dropping nukes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Steve going in the ice was their plan to get him out of the way, but not kill him completely because they still wanted access to the serum. In the Marvel Comics Presents story it was Namor that they were getting out of the way, same reason, because they knew he wouldn't approve.

And while I don't think they're trying to reference Austen's Captain America story, since Marvel ignores that anything Austen wrote existed, they may be trying to draw the same theme of it. Or, at least, I thought that's what they were doing, until I saw these recent preview pages, now I'm not sure.

[ImperiusWrecked]

CapandKirby, Yeah even if my theory is right, this still cuts things very close. I do think Marvel is trying to erase everything that happened after the war and only have the one Invaders series to be that team in that era, and all winners is being earsed etc. This is what I have so far:

- Namor fights in the war with the Invaders
- Probably goes to the Petersons after the Invaders disbanded (cap and bucky ‘died’) but before the end of the war, Nay looks like 3 to 4 so she could have been born while Randall was away
- Marvel comics presents story happens bc he was recalled to Atlantis, leaving Nay and Randall, finds Atlantis destroyed, then he loses his memories
- Sometime long after that while Nay was a young lady she finds him an amnesic in New York and brings him back to her dad
something happens with Xavier and also Nay has a son, and we know Namor might have been around for that

Things will be revealed but Marvel trying to rewrite anything is only as good as what the fans will take, like no one cares about the Maximoff family retcon at all, so maybe others won;t care about this new timeline? I feel like the only people who would care about this is Invaders fans anyways.

I did read those issues you speak of and there is one scene that just kills me, just Steve sitting in the dark holding a flag after he learned the truth and Hana comforts him, it's so sad. I loved Namor's cameo though! Jae lee drew that right?

[Reviresco]

I am giddy with the new preview! So, glad to see Guice back on the book! Thanks for posting that capandkirby. Made my day!

It looked like the Marvel Comics Presents first issue was trying to retcon Namor's amnesia as happening at ground zero of Nagasaki, but I guess not, because it looks like he still had his memories in the first three pages here.

It's entirely possible that Namor's FIRST bout of amnesia was at Nagaski. The guy has had more than one encounter with amnesia. And we know he had his memory during most of the 1950s, cause of his Atlas era adventures with Betty Dean.

That said, I think some of the Marvel Comics Presents stories aren't supposed to be in continuity. Reed and Doom being adults during Sputnik (as portrayed in MCP 2) is simply not possible with the sliding timeline.

Namor did go back to the oceans after WWll, where he had many adventures and such but then he was mind wiped by a villain called Destiny who sends him to New York where he wanders homeless for years until the FF. Namor's amnesia was retconned in this years Marvel Comics Presents, and from what I read int he preview (THANKS for them CapandKirby!!!) he still didn't remember who he was, Nay probably recognized him when he tried to help her, I'm guessing most likely because she grew up with pictures of him and the Invaders and her dad telling her about Namor, whom she is named for, and she had him bring her home. Maybe she seemed familiar to Namor and that is why he approached her.

I'm so glad to have butch's art for the flashbacks. I bet Namor probably gets his memories back somehow during his time with the Petersons but then how did he lose them again? Can't wait for the next comic.

Edit: No wait, I misread you CapandKirby, In the beginning of Marvel comics presents Namor is in Atlantis, where it was destoryed after the war, maybe this fits in a timeline where its just after all the other invaders disbanded but before the final end of the war, maybe those atlanteans called him home because of the destruction and then he went on to that final story in Marvel Comics Presents? I'm just trying to fit things to the new timeline.

I think Atlantis got hit during the War by the Nazis? I think that was part of the reason he joined the Axis. Alternatively, it could be an Alternate Universe -- which I'm leaning more and more towards.

We know there was some duty that called him back permanently to Atlantis in the 1950s. That's the reason he gave to Betty Dean.

Atlantis also got hit by Destiny at some point (Marvel seems to want the 50s date), and IIRC, that was when Fen and Tha-Korr supposedly died -- which is one reason why a 50 year bout with amnesia makes zero sense.

I don't know. I'd always thought that Amnesiac Namor only lived in New York -- but these pages have him at Randal and Nae home, drawn by the family somehow. Interesting.

[ImperiusWrecked]

I think Atlantis got hit during the War by the Nazis? I think that was part of the reason he joined the Axis. Alternatively, it could be an Alternate Universe -- which I'm leaning more and more towards.

We know there was some duty that called him back permanently to Atlantis in the 1950s. That's the reason he gave to Betty Dean.

It also got hit by Destiny at some point (Marvel seems to want the 50s date), and IIRC, that was when Fen and Tha-Korr supposedly died -- which is one reason why a 50 year bout with amnesia makes zero sense.

I don't know. I'd always thought that Amnesiac Namor only lived in New York -- but these pages have him at Randal and Nae home, drawn by the family somehow. Interesting.

Maybe Atlantis got hit but not that bad during the war, and then it's totally destroyed in MCP? I don't know if Marvel is keeping anything with Betty Dean after the war which I would hate since I love Betty and I keep waiting for her to pop up in this series. Having a long amnesia spell only works if Marvel wants to disregard all of that era and just have the Marvel Universe begin with the FF.

[capandkirby]

CapandKirby, Yeah even if my theory is right, this still cuts things very close. I do think Marvel is trying to erase everything that happened after the war and only have the one Invaders series to be that team in that era, and all winners is being earsed etc. This is what I have so far:

- Namor fights in the war with the Invaders
- Probably goes to the Petersons after the Invaders disbanded (cap and bucky ‘died’) but before the end of the war, Nay looks like 3 to 4 so she could have been born while Randall was away
- Marvel comics presents story happens bc he was recalled to Atlantis, leaving Nay and Randall, finds Atlantis destroyed, then he loses his memories
- Sometime long after that while Nay was a young lady she finds him an amnesic in New York and brings him back to her dad
something happens with Xavier and also Nay has a son, and we know Namor might have been around for that

Things will be revealed but Marvel trying to rewrite anything is only as good as what the fans will take, like no one cares about the Maximoff family retcon at all, so maybe others won;t care about this new timeline? I feel like the only people who would care about this is Invaders fans anyways.

I did read those issues you speak of and there is one scene that just kills me, just Steve sitting in the dark holding a flag after he learned the truth and Hana comforts him, it's so sad. I loved Namor's cameo though! Jae lee drew that right?

Yeah, your timeline might fit, assuming the first three pages of the Invaders #4 preview happened before Nagasaki. If they're still going with that. I don't know. I'm still not sure if Marvel Comics Presents is supposed to be canon or not. But I think you have the right of it.

And yeah, that story was just heartbreaking. I mean, I know Austen did some horrible things with the X-Men but his Cap stuff wasn't terrible. Volume 4 of Cap, as a whole, was disjointed because it went through three different writers. It's the most bipolar run of them all. But, it's certainly not the worst. It was sweet that Namor was so protective of Steve there. And, in retrospect, it FITS with the recent Marvel Comics Presents story because it would seem that the US conspired to get BOTH Steve AND Namor out of the way to drop the bombs, knowing neither would approve, and it could also explain why, when Steve found out about what happened with the ice in Cap vol. 4, Namor pretty adamant about protecting him. Guess we'll see how it plays out.

[capandkirby]

I am giddy with the new preview! So, glad to see Guice back on the book! Thanks for posting that capandkirby. Made my day!

It's entirely possible that Namor's FIRST bout of amnesia was at Nagaski. The guy has had more than one encounter with amnesia. And we know he had his memory during most of the 1950s, cause of his Atlas era adventures with Betty Dean.

That said, I think some of the Marvel Comics Presents stories aren't supposed to be in continuity. Reed and Doom being adults during Sputnik (as portrayed in MCP 2) is simply not possible with the sliding timeline.

No problem, glad you enjoyed them! And that's a great point, re: the multiple amnesia episodes, I hadn't considered that. Also, it makes more sense if the MCPs stories aren't canon then if they are, good point there as well.

[Reviresco]

Maybe Atlantis got hit but not that bad during the war, and then it's totally destroyed in MCP? I don't know if Marvel is keeping anything with Betty Dean after the war which I would hate since I love Betty and I keep waiting for her to pop up in this series. Having a long amnesia spell only works if Marvel wants to disregard all of that era and just have the Marvel Universe begin with the FF.

It isn't totally destroyed in MCP. It looks like there's some damage, but a great portion of the city is still standing.

I don't think Marvel is wiping out the 1950s stuff with Betty Dean. That was used in Namor the First Mutant, and Loa's grandmother. They certainly better NOT.

Marvel already has put forth a ridiculously long bout of amnesia, by saying the inciting incident with Destiny HAS to be tied to 1958 (for no reason whatsoever), instead of being part of the sliding timeline. They are saying now, without the MCP Nagasaki incident, that Namor had amnesia from 1958 to 2007, since 2007 is when the FF origin allegedly occurred under the sliding timeline.

[Reviresco]

Did you guys catch the nod to Bill Everett on the last page of the preview? The Everett Fish Market truck? Awesome!

[capandkirby]

Did you guys catch the nod to Bill Everett on the last page of the preview? The Everett Fish Market truck? Awesome!

I didn't catch that! That's fantastic. Great nod!

[ImperiusWrecked]

It isn't totally destroyed in MCP. It looks like there's some damage, but a great portion of the city is still standing.

I don't think Marvel is wiping out the 1950s stuff with Betty Dean. That was used in Namor the First Mutant, and Loa's grandmother. They certainly better NOT.

Marvel already has put forth a ridiculously long bout of amnesia, by saying the inciting incident with Destiny HAS to be tied to 1958 (for no reason whatsoever), instead of being part of the sliding timeline. They are saying now, without the MCP Nagasaki incident, that Namor had amnesia from 1958 to 2007, since 2007 is when the FF origin allegedly occurred under the sliding timeline.

I honestly hate the sliding timeline they keep pushing it forward and stories like with Magneto become further away from the orgins, so they have to find reasons for why Magneto is still youngish enough and not very old except for Namor he is unaffected by it except for how long before his last adventure and the moment he was found by the four. I mean if MCP doesnt fit with the timeline it it could just be a story. Until Marvel makes it clear, I don't think they are erasing anything, but they never give us anything clear cut about Namor, not even where Atlantis is located. It's safe to just assume nothing has changed until they do, because and we can keep all the stories we love in the canon, ignore the rest. LOL. It's what I do anyways!

[ImperiusWrecked]

Did you guys catch the nod to Bill Everett on the last page of the preview? The Everett Fish Market truck? Awesome!

Amazing!!!!

[ImperiusWrecked]

Yeah, your timeline might fit, assuming the first three pages of the Invaders #4 preview happened before Nagasaki. If they're still going with that. I don't know. I'm still not sure if Marvel Comics Presents is supposed to be canon or not. But I think you have the right of it.

And yeah, that story was just heartbreaking. I mean, I know Austen did some horrible things with the X-Men but his Cap stuff wasn't terrible. Volume 4 of Cap, as a whole, was disjointed because it went through three different writers. It's the most bipolar run of them all. But, it's certainly not the worst. It was sweet that Namor was so protective of Steve there. And, in retrospect, it FITS with the recent Marvel Comics Presents story because it would seem that the US conspired to get BOTH Steve AND Namor out of the way to drop the bombs, knowing neither would approve, and it could also explain why, when Steve found out about what happened with the ice in Cap vol. 4, Namor pretty adamant about protecting him. Guess we'll see how it plays out.

As an X-Men fan and a Cap fan, its tough walking both lines, because the X-Men fandom doesn't like Cap and every time Cap is written in the stories its not good. I can understand why, the xmen view Cap as a authority figure but really Cap would totally be on their side, I dislike how AVX messed up alot, everyone was so OOC in that and it forever cemented the dislike for Cap in the X-Men fandom I feel. I try not to get to much into discourse in the fandoms, since I hate fanwars and hate posts etc. So I just try to enjoy both of my faves and yeah Chuck Austen wrote some... stuff that no one was happy with. I personally try to find the good in everything but some things are just badly written lol.

It's interesting how those two comics mirror each other, it could be just a coincidence since I don't know if Pak is a cap fan to have read those comics, Pak is working on the new Agents of Atlas comic! I have to check that out.

[capandkirby]

As an X-Men fan and a Cap fan, its tough walking both lines, because the X-Men fandom doesn't like Cap and every time Cap is written in the stories its not good. I can understand why, the xmen view Cap as a authority figure but really Cap would totally be on their side, I dislike how AVX messed up alot, everyone was so OOC in that and it forever cemented the dislike for Cap in the X-Men fandom I feel. I try not to get to much into discourse in the fandoms, since I hate fanwars and hate posts etc. So I just try to enjoy both of my faves and yeah Chuck Austen wrote some... stuff that no one was happy with. I personally try to find the good in everything but some things are just badly written lol.

It's interesting how those two comics mirror each other, it could be just a coincidence since I don't know if Pak is a cap fan to have read those comics, Pak is working on the new Agents of Atlas comic! I have to check that out.

Yeah, it's got to the point where I just completely avoid anything X-Men related entirely because I just do not like and can't handle how that fandom treats Steve. I can't even rewatch the movies anymore, let alone muster any desire to read a comic of theirs. The ONLY X-Men book I'm reading right now is Domino: Hot-Shots. And that one for multiple reasons, one is it's an all female team, so yes, please on that. And two because Rachel Leighton (Diamondback) is in it, and I've always liked her. Nat is in it, as well, and the Black Widow comic is also on my pull list.

Kudos on you for being able to walk that line between the two fandoms, you have a stronger stomach than I. Agree with you on fan-wars. They are lame, immature and ridiculous.