Invaders (2019)

[tliscord]

Good book ... but torture having Guice only do the WW2 scenes. God, I love his work. That celebration in the bar with Namor and Steve was pure magic, and then topping it off with Bucky found cavorting too. Just a great moment there. Just reminded me of those quieter reflective moments Brubaker would write.

And Namor’s lost period after the war, feeling a bit of Bill Everett and Namor McKenzie nostalgia. Nice work!

[Thor-El]

If you go back and look at the interactions between Namor and Bucky, since Brubaker, they actually have a relationship, and one that is different than Bucky's with Steve. It's almost like, Steve is the beloved father he can never be as good as. Namor is the older, cooler brother, who isn't looking for a sidekick or to be a role model -- who is a "bad" influence in Steve's mind, I'm sure. Yet, both Namor and Bucky share the same job and some of the same darkness. They do all the crappy ugly things that Steve can't deal with.

Which is one reason why I don't care for Holier Than Thou Steve. He's only allowed to take the high road, because of men like Namor and Bucky.

I could be wrong, but it looked like Zdarsky was acknowledging the relationship between Bucky and Namor in one scene, without even having them interact. I hope it gets explored more.

I got that too from the issue and one of my favorite scenes in the entire comic that lets me know we are in for a cool ride. Its when you get treated to character pieces like this that "get" the core of the characters and the continuity that you know your old toys are in good hands.

[Thor-El]

I really need to stop coming to boards like this. I get excited enough about a comic enough to want to discuss it with like-minded individuals only to come here and see my favorite character dissed.

Excitement over this run now effectively quelled.

There is nothing wrong with having morals. There is nothing wrong with having a hard time stomaching murder, even in war. There is nothing wrong with having boundaries of what you will or will not do. Part of 'acceptance' is accepting not just the darker shades of people, but the lighter shades as well. One or the other are not mutually exclusive. And each person needs to decide for themselves what their limits are. Having different limits does not a bad character make. It makes things interesting. Namor and Steve are supposed to contrast each other, because at the end of the day, when this run wraps up, the moral of the story will be that they love each other despite their differences, that they accept each other for what they are.

Logos. Pathos. Ethos. That are what Jim, Namor and Steve are meant to symbolize. Steve is ethos. Namor pathos. Jim logos. They work BECAUSE each represents a different morality, a different perspective, and together they make a whole.

But whatever. I'm out. That'll teach me for wanting to share my joy with other Invaders fans. Guess Steve fans aren't welcome to the party.

Don't feel that way. I love Cap too, I love what he stands for and the character is essential to the team and I agree with everything you have said. I think Reviresco is just stating her preference for Namor as a character and didn't mean anything wrong. You won't find a more passionate Namor fan in this board and more knowledgeable too about the character. We need Cap fans in this discussion for sure, I really like the passion you show for the character and can see you are a true Cap fan. looking forward to share and learn about Cap in this thread too.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Good book ... but torture having Guice only do the WW2 scenes. God, I love his work. That celebration in the bar with Namor and Steve was pure magic, and then topping it off with Bucky found cavorting too. Just a great moment there. Just reminded me of those quieter reflective moments Brubaker would write.

And Namor’s lost period after the war, feeling a bit of Bill Everett and Namor McKenzie nostalgia. Nice work!

I love Guice's Namor and work alot so I really am enjoying the flashback scenes.

[Thor-El]

I love Guice's Namor and work alot so I really am enjoying the flashback scenes.

Me too, those Guice panels are so cinematic, mixed up with Zdarski great writing and its almost as if I'm watching an Invaders MCU movie.

[Mike_Murdock]

This was a very good issue. It had a nice mix of nostalgia, intrigue, and pathos. This Namor story has continued to be good and I'm really glad I've been following it. That being said, I would argue this wasn't even the best Namor issue that came out this week.

Still, that moment in the bar between Cap and Namor with Bucky there as well was great.

spoilers:

What are the chances that Charles Xavier is responsible for Namor's amnesia?

end of spoilers

[capandkirby]

I'm sorry what I said made you feel unwelcome, that was not the intent at all. And of course, Steve fans are welcome.

Aack. More later, but please, don't let my posts effect your enthusiasm.

It's fine, I was probably being too overly sensitive. I had a tumblr once but ended up leaving the platform entirely because I was tired of Steve being everyone's punching bag because their character of choice was pitted against him in the comics (or the films) and how dare the writers portray Steve as having any kind of point or opposing opinion. I used to post at this board more often, too, but the Cyclops fans had Steve as their favorite punching bag because of AvX (which was years ago - holding onto anger that long says more about the fans than the characters) and it just got to be too much. To this day I cannot pick up an X-Men title because of it, I have seven current subscriptions and not a single one of them is an X-Men title. The vitriol gets to be too much, and it's just hard for me to understand the 'vs' mentality, or the constant need to compare characters against each other because a) this is comics, there are good writers and bad writers, there are good portrayals and bad portrayals, and no character has been exempt from bad storytelling, not even Steve. I mean, my god, Steve was once written by freakin' Chuck Austin, THAT Chuck Austin, and yeah, it was pretty bad. In fact even my favorite Cap writer, Mark Gruenwald, also had some of the worst Steve stories while he also had one of the absolute best Cap stories in the entire history of the character. Same writer. And b) recognizing point A) I don't really have a character I hate, because I realize that with each character I may hate them one minute and love them the rest, it all really depends on the writing. So I honestly don't get wasting the energy to hate something, it just doesn't seem rewarding or worth it. In fact, it seems to just generate misery, and not just the person doing it, but for the fans of the other characters being hated on.

Moreover, for the past decade or so, Marvel has been on this sort of grimdark kick (I blame Mark Miller and his Ultimates for starting it) where they were stuck in an emo phase and everything was pitting heroes against each other instead of villains and portraying the characters as gritty and dark and it's like no thanks, I don't hold any story done in the past ten years against any of the characters for the simple reason that I've been patiently waiting for Marvel, as a whole, to ditch the all dark clothing, throw out the thick eyeliner, donate the Smith's cd to charity, and finally get back to stories of hope again instead of trying to be 'edgy' and they finally are, so yay!

But enough about that, I shouldn't have jumped to conclusions, just jaded. My bad.

I love Namor. And I love the Invaders. In fact, they're my absolute favorite team, even more so than the Avengers. I think it's because the dynamic Steve/Namor/Jim have is pretty special. Like I said before, they are such stunning representatives of ethos, logos and pathos. And I don't really see Steve as having the moral high ground so much as each of the main three provide a different perspective towards life, and they make each other better by being around each other. In this issue alone, we have Jim, the android, who is actually the most human of them all. Steve says this outright "Jim, I've never seen you as anything other than human."

It is Jim who realizes that there is something wrong with Namor and approaches Steve with it.

And Steve listened to him. Steve has had the Avengers in his ear for months now, T'Challa, right or wrong, does not like Namor (I would say wrong because it's hardly Namor's fault that he was possessed by the Phoenix - I love T'Challa dearly, but he needs to let it go) and Tony we saw first hand try to talk Steve out of going to get answers. I mean, Tony's concern for Steve is very sweet but Steve's right, the Invaders look out for each other, and if he can save Namor and prevent war than that should be his priority, even over his commitment to the Avengers.

My conclusion: Steve, despite being the leader of the Invaders NEEDED Jim's perspective to motivate him to act, taking a leave of his new team to protect his old, risking his life to do so (although we all know that when push comes to shove there is no way Namor will kill Steve, not ever).

And then that awesome bar flashback during the war. Namor, a prince to his people at the time, NEEDED Steve's perspective that it was okay to grieve, that it was okay to be effected by the tragedies of war, no matter what Namor's status or species.

Namor is obviously, to this day, dealing with some pretty heavy PTSD and who better to help him through it than a solid presence who was also there, aka Steve.

Conclusion: these three men, despite approaching life differently on a philosophical and fundamental level, really actually complement each other, if that makes sense. They challenge each other in ways that causes them to be their better selves when together.

With the Invaders Jim get's acceptance, no matter his biology.

Namor gets compassion from people who genuinely care for him, regardless of his responsibilities to Atlantis or his status therein.

And Steve gets his views challenged, resulting in him trying different approaches to things.

Their dynamic reminds me a lot of Kirk/Spock/McCoy from Star Trek. And it's a formula that really truly WORKS.

[LordUltimus]

This was a very good issue. It had a nice mix of nostalgia, intrigue, and pathos. This Namor story has continued to be good and I'm really glad I've been following it. That being said, I would argue this wasn't even the best Namor issue that came out this week.

Still, that moment in the bar between Cap and Namor with Bucky there as well was great.

spoilers:

What are the chances that Charles Xavier is responsible for Namor's amnesia?

end of spoilers

spoilers:

Not sure, it wouldn't be the worst thing he's done, but the way it's shown could make it a fakeout.

end of spoilers

[capandkirby]

We really do love Steve but tbh I do see there are two kinds of Steve writers, the ones who KNOW the character and the ones who think they know Captain America. Cap wears a mask just like Namor and Jim, they each show something to other people that is different from the honest friendship they have with each other. Lately writers seem to always make Steve 'holier than thou' because they think Steve is all lectures and doing things right and good. They don't show much much struggle Steve has to stay on the right path, he is cut from a different cloth as Namor and he has a very different set of morals yet today we see Steve, one who knows the price people pay and who pays that price himself. I am truly sorry if you feel this way but I would rather have a Steve than a Captain America who like in the Avengers was all 'you are wrong wrong wrong' . Invaders Steve is a full rich character, he sees his friend is hurting and rather than let him go on the self destructive behavior he smacks him back into place. He does it because he cares. Just seeing the difference in the writing is so refreshing and I miss this Steve a lot. He, Jim, and Namor are really my top characters and Invaders is my favorite team. I do hope you will come back if you choose to.

I don't disagree with you about Jason Aaron's portrayal of Steve. He is portraying Steve as one dimensional with little of Steve's personality (when he portrays Steve at all... Steve really hasn't been too prominently featured in the run yet). The impression I'm getting is that Aaron has other priorities (like Ghost Rider). I think Marvel forced him to put "The Big Three" on the team to revitalize sales (because Marvel had their lowest sales year in years in 2017) and they wanted to get people reading again. And not just returning comic readers, but they are also trying to court new ones as well, and what better way to do it than with an Avengers team composed of the most popular of the MCU characters. Which, fine, I don't blame them, I'd do the same, but the result is that Steve and Tony, too, (he's getting the same treatment) are just kinda... there for either comic relief (Tony) or juxtaposition (Steve).

I have a subscription to the Avengers and I'm enjoying it, but its despite of and not because of Aaron's portrayal of Steve. Coates is doing a much, MUCH better job of getting into Steve's head. I love his Cap run thus far, just love it.

And yes, I love Zdarsky's portrayal thus far, too. He seems to really get something all good writers get: the best way to generate empathy for a character is by highlighting their relationship with other characters. You're definitely right about that.

[lordozone]

I really need to stop coming to boards like this. I get excited enough about a comic enough to want to discuss it with like-minded individuals only to come here and see my favorite character dissed.

Excitement over this run now effectively quelled.

There is nothing wrong with having morals. There is nothing wrong with having a hard time stomaching murder, even in war. There is nothing wrong with having boundaries of what you will or will not do. Part of 'acceptance' is accepting not just the darker shades of people, but the lighter shades as well. One or the other are not mutually exclusive. And each person needs to decide for themselves what their limits are. Having different limits does not a bad character make. It makes things interesting. Namor and Steve are supposed to contrast each other, because at the end of the day, when this run wraps up, the moral of the story will be that they love each other despite their differences, that they accept each other for what they are.

Logos. Pathos. Ethos. That are what Jim, Namor and Steve are meant to symbolize. Steve is ethos. Namor pathos. Jim logos. They work BECAUSE each represents a different morality, a different perspective, and together they make a whole.

But whatever. I'm out. That'll teach me for wanting to share my joy with other Invaders fans. Guess Steve fans aren't welcome to the party.

Why ? I love Captain America , but It's ok to disagree with people, to have differents tastes, and your arguments were very interesting. What I find interesting in these forums is that people can disagree politely, expose their opinions, use arguments... We are not in Twitter, we can have disagreements without hate.

[ImperiusWrecked]

It's fine, I was probably being too overly sensitive. I had a tumblr once but ended up leaving the platform entirely because I was tired of Steve being everyone's punching bag because their character of choice was pitted against him in the comics (or the films) and how dare the writers portray Steve as having any kind of point or opposing opinion. I used to post at this board more often, too, but the Cyclops fans had Steve as their favorite punching bag because of AvX (which was years ago - holding onto anger that long says more about the fans than the characters) and it just got to be too much. To this day I cannot pick up an X-Men title because of it, I have seven current subscriptions and not a single one of them is an X-Men title. The vitriol gets to be too much, and it's just hard for me to understand the 'vs' mentality, or the constant need to compare characters against each other because a) this is comics, there are good writers and bad writers, there are good portrayals and bad portrayals, and no character has been exempt from bad storytelling, not even Steve. I mean, my god, Steve was once written by freakin' Chuck Austin, THAT Chuck Austin, and yeah, it was pretty bad. In fact even my favorite Cap writer, Mark Gruenwald, also had some of the worst Steve stories while he also had one of the absolute best Cap stories in the entire history of the character. Same writer. And b) recognizing point A) I don't really have a character I hate, because I realize that with each character I may hate them one minute and love them the rest, it all really depends on the writing. So I honestly don't get wasting the energy to hate something, it just doesn't seem rewarding or worth it. In fact, it seems to just generate misery, and not just the person doing it, but for the fans of the other characters being hated on.

Moreover, for the past decade or so, Marvel has been on this sort of grimdark kick (I blame Mark Miller and his Ultimates for starting it) where they were stuck in an emo phase and everything was pitting heroes against each other instead of villains and portraying the characters as gritty and dark and it's like no thanks, I don't hold any story done in the past ten years against any of the characters for the simple reason that I've been patiently waiting for Marvel, as a whole, to ditch the all dark clothing, throw out the thick eyeliner, donate the Smith's cd to charity, and finally get back to stories of hope again instead of trying to be 'edgy' and they finally are, so yay!

But enough about that, I shouldn't have jumped to conclusions, just jaded. My bad.

I love Namor. And I love the Invaders. In fact, they're my absolute favorite team, even more so than the Avengers. I think it's because the dynamic Steve/Namor/Jim have is pretty special. Like I said before, they are such stunning representatives of ethos, logos and pathos. And I don't really see Steve as having the moral high ground so much as each of the main three provide a different perspective towards life, and they make each other better by being around each other. In this issue alone, we have Jim, the android, who is actually the most human of them all. Steve says this outright "Jim, I've never seen you as anything other than human."

It is Jim who realizes that there is something wrong with Namor and approaches Steve with it.

And Steve listened to him. Steve has had the Avengers in his ear for months now, T'Challa, right or wrong, does not like Namor (I would say wrong because it's hardly Namor's fault that he was possessed by the Phoenix - I love T'Challa dearly, but he needs to let it go) and Tony we saw first hand try to talk Steve out of going to get answers. I mean, Tony's concern for Steve is very sweet but Steve's right, the Invaders look out for each other, and if he can save Namor and prevent war than that should be his priority, even over his commitment to the Avengers.

My conclusion: Steve, despite being the leader of the Invaders NEEDED Jim's perspective to motivate him to act, taking a leave of his new team to protect his old, risking his life to do so (although we all know that when push comes to shove there is no way Namor will kill Steve, not ever).

And then that awesome bar flashback during the war. Namor, a prince to his people at the time, NEEDED Steve's perspective that it was okay to grieve, that it was okay to be effected by the tragedies of war, no matter what Namor's status or species.

Namor is obviously, to this day, dealing with some pretty heavy PTSD and who better to help him through it than a solid presence who was also there, aka Steve.

Conclusion: these three men, despite approaching life differently on a philosophical and fundamental level, really actually complement each other, if that makes sense. They challenge each other in ways that causes them to be their better selves when together.

With the Invaders Jim get's acceptance, no matter his biology.

Namor gets compassion from people who genuinely care for him, regardless of his responsibilities to Atlantis or his status therein.

And Steve gets his views challenged, resulting in him trying different approaches to things.

Their dynamic reminds me a lot of Kirk/Spock/McCoy from Star Trek. And it's a formula that really truly WORKS.

It's ok to get upset, and I am glad you came back. I used to get very upset over Namor (my top fave) and how other fans would treat the character in other sites. I learned to let go a lot and everyone here is nice. The grimdark thing is so old and I can't wait for more stories like today's Invaders that show it's ok to care about the ones you love and lost and not be brooding loner all the time. Also about grimdark: the Secret Empire (I HATE that series sooo much i wouldn't touch the comics at ALL. Steve is NOT a nazi and I hate the whole way marvel went about it) made me very upset with marvel. I am glad they seem to be getting Steve back on track though and I really hope we get good scenes with the Original Holy Trinity. Zdarsky is doing well so far and I hope this series will be really good!

(I LOVE star trek!!!)

I don't disagree with you about Jason Aaron's portrayal of Steve. He is portraying Steve as one dimensional with little of Steve's personality (when he portrays Steve at all... Steve really hasn't been too prominently featured in the run yet). The impression I'm getting is that Aaron has other priorities (like Ghost Rider). I think Marvel forced him to put "The Big Three" on the team to revitalize sales (because Marvel had their lowest sales year in years in 2017) and they wanted to get people reading again. And not just returning comic readers, but they are also trying to court new ones as well, and what better way to do it than with an Avengers team composed of the most popular of the MCU characters. Which, fine, I don't blame them, I'd do the same, but the result is that Steve and Tony, too, (he's getting the same treatment) are just kinda... there for either comic relief (Tony) or juxtaposition (Steve).

I have a subscription to the Avengers and I'm enjoying it, but its despite of and not because of Aaron's portrayal of Steve. Coates is doing a much, MUCH better job of getting into Steve's head. I love his Cap run thus far, just love it.

And yes, I love Zdarsky's portrayal thus far, too. He seems to really get something all good writers get: the best way to generate empathy for a character is by highlighting their relationship with other characters. You're definitely right about that.

The reason the Invaders work imo is that they became a family through hardship through the war they became brothers and so it's been a LONG time since Namor and Steve have acted like it, and really I hope to see more than just Namor and Steve, I love Jim and I really want to see Jim and Steve interacting more this time around. I personally am very cross with how Aaron is writing Namor and also about how much Namor has been everyone's punching bag for the last ten years (since the phoenix) especially for how they keep trying to push a black panther vs Namor thing. Marvel constantly destroying Atlantis hurts because we never see Atlantis in its full glory, its used as a prop for others to break.

Seeing Steve and Namor hug was tugging at my heart strings honestly. I love the Invaders alot. I really hope that Invaders will focus on the bond between all of them and also we can figure out what is wrong with Namor.

[jackolover]

If you go back and look at the interactions between Namor and Bucky, since Brubaker, they actually have a relationship, and one that is different than Bucky's with Steve. It's almost like, Steve is the beloved father he can never be as good as. Namor is the older, cooler brother, who isn't looking for a sidekick or to be a role model -- who is a "bad" influence in Steve's mind, I'm sure. Yet, both Namor and Bucky share the same job and some of the same darkness. They do all the crappy ugly things that Steve can't deal with.

Which is one reason why I don't care for Holier Than Thou Steve. He's only allowed to take the high road, because of men like Namor and Bucky.

I could be wrong, but it looked like Zdarsky was acknowledging the relationship between Bucky and Namor in one scene, without even having them interact. I hope it gets explored more.

Steve Rogers does appear to be “holier than though” in modern times mainly because it is not war footing in modern times; it’s just annoying villains that don’t attack the stability of the US. But in the early issues of the Avengers, you can see Steve deliberately want to kill Zemo for revenge at Bucky’s death. But this is war-footing Steve understands, because Zemo still stands for inflicting the Nazi world on everybody and needs to be eliminated, so Steve does go out and kills Zemo in Avengers #15. Modern Steve sees the world as having won against tyranny so killing no longer is necessary, even for annoying villains.

I guess my thing about Steve and the others is, well, Steve was allowed to move on. In fact, he was almost forced to move on. Plus I'm not sure it's that Steve really just has the moral high ground so much as it is he's got a healthier mental and emotional state to begin with.

Namor was always unstable and Bucky was horrifically tortured and hurt for years. He's only recently really been able to heal.

On Steve Rogers, he landed in 1964 America having never been able to come home from war and acclimatise back into society. He only ever started that acclimatisation after Avengers #15 killing Zemo. Now, all modern society seems pedestrian by comparison, to Steve, because war-time footing is a completely different mental state to peace-time footing. I think Steve gave an almighty sigh when he immersed in peace, and saw villain fights as entertainment. You get this impression when reading his first solo issues in Tales of Suspense, and he is matched up to swarms of attackers, but considered it like sparing.

[jackolover]

I do wonder whether 1940 Steve Rogers is just in Invaders to keep the destructive elements of the Human Torch and Submariner in check? In 1940, when Steve first came across Torch and Submariner, they had been fighting in the city, (Steve smacked down Namor with his shield), and Steve was wondering who they were. Getting those two hot heads to join up with Cap was maybe a first priority, but, once they worked so well together on missions, their bond was formed far stronger than any Cap had in the Avengers.

[Rosebunse]

You know what I sort of want?

All the characters who were involved with WW2 to just meet up and talk about it.

[your_name_here]

Really nice issue. Hope we eventually get to catch up on Union Jack and Spitfire. Brubaker did a great job on those two but they weren’t seen much afterward.