Theory: Typhoid Mary used her powers to seduce Daredevil in Nocenti’s run

[Spidercide]

Because of her appearance in Iron Fist Season 2 I’ve been checking out the original Nocenti Typhoid Mary stories.


I’d heard of the character and how Matt cheated on Karen with her which always seemed questionable to me.


Having read some of the stories and background info on her though some things served to muddy the waters and raise a potentially alternate interpretation I’d like to share.


Okay, so Typhoid Mary has Dissociative Identity Disorder (more commonly known as a split personality. In the context of what we’re discussing, these are the passive and nice Mary and the more criminal and violent Typhoid (Mary), the latter of whom has access to super powers like pyrokinesis, telekinesis, and telepathy including mental suggestions. She can for example make simple minded people or creatures fall asleep and her other powers even manifests itself by her commanding things to happen. E.g. she’ll mentally say ‘ignite’ to light a cigar from across the room. Her mental suggestions though seem to be applicable even on stronger willed people. In the latest Typhoid Fever: Spider-Man issue she exerts a powerful hold over Spider-Man, who is famously strong willed. She also has the ability to seduce men. Not in a ‘I’ve trained for this in the KGB’ kind of way, I mean it’s literally part of her powerset.


Now I got this info from Wikipedia and her Marvel.wiki page so if any of this is wrong please correct me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhoid_Mary_(comics)
http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Mary_Walker_(Earth-616)


In addition, whilst most sources state that in her Mary persona she cannot use any of these powers, the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe vol 3 #7 implies that Typhoid persona could at times control the actions of the Mary persona to some degree.

https://66.media.tumblr.com/ac7dcd9c...of1o2_1280.jpg
https://66.media.tumblr.com/bf609fa0...of1o1_1280.jpg


This was in reference to Mary’s first meeting with Matt Murdock in Daredevil #254, Typhoid Mary’s first appearance. The Marvel.wiki also references that issue when stating:

“Although Mary cannot access her powers, Typhoid has occasionally expressed their powers through Mary while Mary was in control, and without Mary realizing it.”

This is important to bear in mind for my theory going forward.

So in DD #254, Kingpin learns about Typhoid Mary’s past and her abilities and hatches a plan to use her to ruin Daredevil by breaking up him and Karen Page. Specifically this involves Mary seducing Matt.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-PjzeT0yg8...00-Ic42/17.png

It’s kind of weird that Kingpin just PRESUMES Daredevil could be seduced by Mary in the first place, that he’d fall for her being loyal to Karen (whom he knows Matt loves a lot and whom he’s been through a lot of serious stuff with). What’s even more weird is the fact that he chooses Typhoid Mary for this task.

Couldn’t he have just hired ANY woman to get close to Matt and seduce him, especially someone more reliable than this murderous mental patient who’s been wrecking his territory?

He talks about wanting Typhoid to ‘conquer’ Daredevil whilst Mary seduces Matt Murdock, which I presume means he wants Typhoid to beat him up as opposed to anything romantic/sexual.

But again…he could hire anyone to do that. In fact he has the means to give people super powers, he did that with the Black Cat as part of a (successful) scheme to wreck her relationship with Spider-Man. Even if you ignore that with the Kingpin’s resources it is totally possible for him to just hire a super powered person or give powers to a woman and use them to attack Matt/DD in both identities.

DD #254 does explain however that Mary and Typhoid exhibit different physiological tendencies, like different heart rates and scents. So this makes her ideal to fool DD’s hypersenses, but again with his resources he could find a way to bypass those. A scented costume and an assassin who knows how to control her heart rate and stuff could probably fool him.

So why pin his hopes upon Typhoid Mary, whom he hasn’t even made this offer to yet? In fact Typhoid asks him why her as opposed to any assassin when he offers her a million dollars for the job.

Kingpin’s immediate response:

“Can you make any man fall in love with you?”

To this Typhoid laughs and says that’s ‘child’s play’.

In the end of the issue Mary is at a hospital with Matt Murdock and mentally commands him to look over at her then sit next to him before she begins to immediately put the moves on him. You kind of need to see the pages for yourself because I can’t describe them adequately.

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https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_jGOEVVf4...00-Ic42/23.png

Literally in the next issue (effectively their second interaction) Matt, in front of a blind child, whilst a phone message from Karen about how she loves and cares for him, is kissing Mary. Also in this scene Mary/Typhoid has a really evil facial expression at one point.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-47W4H4Zjh...00-Ic42/07.png
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Kingpin’s attitude, his plan, Mary’s ability to implant mental suggestions in Matt and his falling for her seriously quickly indicates (like her wiki articles states) that she not only has a literal power to seduce people via her telepathy but that she was using this to influence Matt.

Further evidence comes in DD #255. In Daredevil’s first battle with Typhoid she exhibits the ability to bamboozle his radar sense via her mental powers.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RVqZYnSog...00-Ic42/17.png

During the battle Typhoid kisses Daredevil and his thought captions read:

“I’m hot feverish, she’s confusing me…fell like I’m burning…and I hate her!”

He proceeds to kick her and then continues to think:

“So sick, so hot…she’s disgusting.”

In DD #256 we get this scene between Matt and Mary when they’ve seemingly randomly met in the street.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8kUqNGKob...00-Ic42/03.png
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I’m not pulling these out of contest, it happens just like that and this is as far as we know only essentially the third time they’ve ever interacted. Notice how abrupt Matt switches between saying they shouldn’t be doing anything to passionately kissing her.

[Spidercide]

There is more important context later in the issue when Typhoid and her henchman Rip (who she’s sleeping with) report to the Kingpin. In the scene Typhoid talks about how she enjoys seducing Murdock because he’s attractive, which causes Rip to get a little possessive and for her in turn to assure him he’s her main man. Kingpin observing all this gets angry, crushes his ashtray and orders Rip to get his hands off her.

Typhoid asks:

“Why’d you do that…sir? You don’t know. Well baby, I do”

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https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zQGgmx_Vw...00-Ic42/12.png

Obviously the implication here is that Kingpin has romantic/sexual feelings for Typhoid.

Now, obviously someone can be attracted to a variety of people but it’s fair to say if Vanessa was the woman Kingpin loved the most up until this point, then obviously she’s ‘his type’ and Typhoid is NOTHING like Vanessa at all and he barely knows her.

Combined with the dialogue and what had been depicted of her so far it heavily implies that Typhoid was on some level using her powers on Kingpin too, and later on they’d enter into a relationship.

In Daredevil #257 she and Kingpin are having a conversation when he (like Matt) very abruptly drops what he’s doing, grabs her and starts kissing her. During this Typhoid thinks:

“You don’t know it yet, fat man, but your hearts in the palm of my hand. And I’m about to make it into a fist.”

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-14PQuCeeh...00-Ic42/19.png
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Again the fact that Typhoid is consciously doing this and she says Kingpin doesn’t even realize he’s in love with her, coupled with her confirming she can make any man fall in love with her, implies she’s working some mind magic on Kingpin and by extension Matt.

This is further corroborated in DD #259. In that issue Daredevil enemy Bullet bursts in on Typhoid talking to his infant son. He assaults her and demands she leave him alone. Typhoid uses her telekinesis to place a sharp object just in front of Bullet’s son. He agrees to help her beat up Daredevil and then immediately, in front of his son and whilst the sharp object is still threatening to kill him, starts flirting with her, calling her sexy, and wanting her to stay awhile.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-sHVC2IqOI...00-Ic42/13.png

Around this point Matt was seriously intending to leave Karen for Mary, again despite them having only recently met, not interacted that much and their relationship not seemingly particularly deep. He just randomly seems to fall in love with her. But after an adventure with Karen in DD #259 in the next issue Matt thinks to himself he was being dumb for even considering leaving Karen.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-HkofhOgbI...00-Ic42/01.png

This implies Matt has managed to shake off some of Typhoid’s influence on him.

DD #261 continues to showcase Typhoid’s power to manipulate people as she compels a guard to embrace her despite his initially resisting. Her dialogue reads:

“You couldn’t resist me if I was the kiss of death.”

In the same issue after sleeping with Kingpin Typhoid thinks:

“He’ll find out who owns who.”

Waaaaaaaay later in DD #294, Kingpin says to Typhoid:

“You seduce your victims in your way, and I in mine.”

I admit this one doesn’t really explicitly say she has that ability as a super power, but it’s food for thought all the same.

In DD #297 Daredevil confronts Typhoid Mary and having her pinned down he thinks:

“...enhanced sensation, threatening to run out of control...like before...”

He then tries to kiss her, which freaks her out. He responds:

“Can’t what? Be the pursuer instead of the unwilling partner?”

Empshasis mine. If Typhoid/Mary was simply trying to make Matt fall in love with her normally, why is Matt raising the idea that he was at any point unwilling? Yeah Mary/Typhoid pursued him and maybe he didn’t want that...at first, but he still kissed her in their second interaction and began cheating on Karen thereafter so really he must have been willing...unless he wasn’t because Typhoid’s super powers were manipulating him.

He continues:

“We both know I’ve fought off what you do to me for too long...No More...”

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-spFceKkOK...%252520018.jpg

Again you could interpret ‘what she does to him’ as being simple attraction but the context clues in the issue and earlier ones paint a different story.

All in all I think this makes the strong case that Matt’s relationship with Mary was at least not wholly being his fault because she was using her powers to bamboozle him.

[Michael Watkins]

Yep..........

[Rosebunse]

Didn't she rape Deadpool?

[Dum Dum Dugan]

Didn't she rape Deadpool?

Yes, she pretended to be Siryn with an image inducer and had sex with him.

Though she's never been shown to have the ability to make men fall in love with her ala Poison Ivy, and I don't think that's what Nocenti was going for when she wrote the story.

It feels like the OP is just trying to find a way to rationalize away Matt being unfaithful.

[Spidercide]

Yes, she pretended to be Siryn with an image inducer and had sex with him.

Though she's never been shown to have the ability to make men fall in love with her ala Poison Ivy, and I don't think that's what Nocenti was going for when she wrote the story.

It feels like the OP is just trying to find a way to rationalize away Matt being unfaithful.

Okay but read what I wrote though.

The wikis state she has that power, the Kingpin asks if she has the power to make any man fall in love with her and for Matt, Kingpin, and other male characters their feelings for her are incredibly abrupt.

She has the power to psionically seduce men, using a combination of behavioral psychology and telepathic prods to make them quickly become obsessed and fall in love with her

[Dum Dum Dugan]

Anyone can edit a wiki, and the source they use for that claim (the marvel handbook issue) says nothing about her using her powers to make people quickly become obsessed and fall in love with her.

[krazijoe]

Anyone can edit a wiki, and the source they use for that claim (the marvel handbook issue) says nothing about her using her powers to make people quickly become obsessed and fall in love with her.

easily explained...He did it all for the nookie...

[Spidercide]

Anyone can edit a wiki, and the source they use for that claim (the marvel handbook issue) says nothing about her using her powers to make people quickly become obsessed and fall in love with her.

Fair enough, but you are also ignoring everything else I wrote in reply to you and the OPs.

[Dum Dum Dugan]

Fair enough, but you are also ignoring everything else I wrote in reply to you and the OPs.

None of the examples you gave show Mary's controlling anyone. And if she did have those powers, I think it would be a lot more explicit, like it is when other characters have similar powers (Poison Ivy, Purple Man, Spider-Woman, etc). All it shows is that she's a seductive and manipulative woman.

And you suggest Kingpin hired her because he knew she could control people, if that's true why would he let himself enter a relationship with her?

[Spidercide]

None of the examples you gave show Mary's controlling anyone. And if she did have those powers, I think it would be a lot more explicit, like it is when other characters have similar powers (Poison Ivy, Purple Man, Spider-Woman, etc). All it shows is that she's a seductive and manipulative woman.

And you suggest Kingpin hired her because he knew she could control people, if that's true why would he let himself enter a relationship with her?

Why would it HAVE to be explicit? The Easter connotations in Born Again are not explicit after all. Plus like...this is Nocenti. She doesn't always make things crystal clear.

In the examples listed Kingpin literally asks her if she can make any man fall in love with her and he specifically sought her out to do that. Why do that unless it's one of her abilities. She was shown being able to plant mental suggestions in Matt's head in her first appearance. Her romantic/sexual encounters with him, Kingpin and other male characters come about incredibly abruptly and in at least some cases (Bullet) nonsensically/unrealistically, and she was shown to be able to bamboozle Daredevil's mind in their battles, confusing his radar sense and eliciting feelings of disgust and hatred from him out of the blue. If it was just that she's a normal seductive and manipluative person why would Kingpin hire her when he could achieve those ends other ways, arguably more reliably too?

If Kingpin was being manipulated by Typhoid it'd be too late for him to have stopped that and/or how would he have known.

[Mike_Murdock]

Typhoid has always had mind control powers and I've generally considered that they had a subtle influence on Matt Murdock. I don't think it was enough to overwhelm his decision-making. Matt had the willpower to resist Killgrave, whose powers are significantly stronger. The issue is how Typhoid's powers interact with her Mary personality. For one thing, the very fact that Mary went to meet Matt and had a whole backstory about helping blind children suggests, to me, that Typhoid had some control over her other personality. Second, it's generally assumed Mary doesn't have powers but it would require Typhoid influencing Matt through Mary.

That being said, there are certainly hints of it. Mary thinks "look over here" in the same way that Typhoid thinks before using her telekinesis, pyrokinesis, or limited mind-control and, immediately after, Matt looks over in her direction. Obviously, Matt had no reason to look over there. The act of looking doesn't give him any benefit since his senses take in a 360 degree "picture" anyway and he can't see by turning his head. Prior to that, we saw that Typhoid gets that one goon to immediately stop what he was doing and to have sex with her in the middle of a fire and dead bodies. Now it's entirely possible he's just that horny, but it's pretty dramatic. Next, we see her strongest example of mind-control when she causes two of the Kingpin's goons to fall asleep (which normally only works on cows). Finally, even the Kingpin's change in attitude suggests a similar overriding obsession that Matt has.

Once again, I don't think she's mind-controlling Matt. But I have always thought she used her powers to aid her seduction of him.

[Dum Dum Dugan]

Why would it HAVE to be explicit? The Easter connotations in Born Again are not explicit after all. Plus like...this is Nocenti. She doesn't always make things crystal clear.

In the examples listed Kingpin literally asks her if she can make any man fall in love with her and he specifically sought her out to do that. Why do that unless it's one of her abilities. She was shown being able to plant mental suggestions in Matt's head in her first appearance. Her romantic/sexual encounters with him, Kingpin and other male characters come about incredibly abruptly and in at least some cases (Bullet) nonsensically/unrealistically, and she was shown to be able to bamboozle Daredevil's mind in their battles, confusing his radar sense and eliciting feelings of disgust and hatred from him out of the blue. If it was just that she's a normal seductive and manipluative person why would Kingpin hire her when he could achieve those ends other ways, arguably more reliably too?

If Kingpin was being manipulated by Typhoid it'd be too late for him to have stopped that and/or how would he have known.

Kingpin didn't hire her out for the blue. She was attacking his operations and he was impressed with her.

And if Kingpin knew about her powers, he would have taken precautions to make sure he wasn't vulnerable.

[Spidercide]

Kingpin didn't hire her out for the blue. She was attacking his operations and he was impressed with her.

And if Kingpin knew about her powers, he would have taken precautions to make sure he wasn't vulnerable.

I never said Kingpin hired her out of the blue. Read my OP along with the scans I posted for important reference. Kingpin found out about her and felt she was perfect for his task of breaking Daredevil's heart by ending his and Karen's relationship. But he could've had someone else do that, it didn't have to be her, not with his resources. In truth the plan would've been basically as effective if he'd gotten any woman to seduce Matt and she'd just revealed she worked for Fisk. So why go for her?

Because, as he asked her, she had the power to make any man fall in love with her. That was something that if he just looked at her fighting skills or DiD he wasn't going to be able to know, and he certainly had no guarantee Murdock would even like her in the first place.

Kingpin likely thought he would be able to resist her and/or he could keep her at enough of a distance. Remember this is the guy who regularly antagonizes super powered people, who believed it was a good idea to try and murder Spider-Man's family during Civil War and arrogantly believed he'd get the last laugh over that. Buuuuuuuuut....he didn't.

[Dum Dum Dugan]

He asked her if she could make people fall in love with her, nothing about it being a power.

And he had no problem rejecting her when Daredevil distracted him with a photo of Vanessa.

And Matt had no problem on cheating on his wife Milla with Dakota North, so I don't know why him cheating on Karen is so unbelievable.