Theory: Typhoid Mary used her powers to seduce Daredevil in Nocenti’s run

[phantom1592]

As far back as 1989, I considered this was a given. Even the RPG stats listed her as having

Powers:
mind control: Typhoid is able to telepathically broadcast commands to others, giving her 'Good' Mind Control. Her victims usually do not realize they are being manipulated. She only gives simple commands (such as "Look at me" or "fire your gun") and rarely uses this power on her opponents once combat has begun. Out of combat she can make a man fall in love with her if she succeeds in a Power FEAT against her target's Psyche, taking a -1cs penalty. Typhoid seems willing to spend Karma on this roll.

While the handbooks aren't usually 'definitive' in these kind of debates, it's obviously a common theory that stretches back years, so I'm with ya.

[Alpha Male]

You know, I wish in season two of Iron Fist they allowed Typhoid to be Typhoid from the jump. I know they used her other personalities but not to use the more familiar one that the readers were introduced by Ann Nocenti was a huge disservice.

[Mike_Murdock]

He asked her if she could make people fall in love with her, nothing about it being a power.

And he had no problem rejecting her when Daredevil distracted him with a photo of Vanessa.

I wouldn't read too much into Daredevil 296 when we're talking about 254 through 265 by a different author. He also had no problem pushing her off at that moment, but he still had obsessive thoughts throughout the rest of that story. I don't think Typhoid's powers are Killgrave's, I think it has a subtle influence.

Likewise, I perfectly agree that Matt could cheat on Karen in the same way he cheated on Milla, but this wasn't the same way. That was a one-time thing in a moment of stress after a huge build up. This happened practically instantaneously without any build up. Like I said earlier, Matt still made his own choices, but I do think based on the context of the story that Typhoid's power was influencing him. It doesn't absolve Matt, but it explains the story. Honestly, when I saw this thread, I wondered what the point was because I thought this was so obvious it didn't need a topic, but apparently this is a point of debate.

[Dum Dum Dugan]

The OP was talking about more than just Nocenti's run, so I thought it was fair game. Like they used DD telling Typhoid he was being "the pursuer instead of the unwilling partner" which I think was him talking about him pursuing her instead of her attacking him, and not him being "unwilling" because she was controlling him during their affair as Matt and Mary. Plus they mentioned the recent Typhoid Fever issue, even though Mary there was using a telepathic mutant to give her powers a massive boost somehow.

I can see Mary maybe giving Matt a little 'nudge' in her direction to catch his eye, just not to the extent the OP was arguing.

[Spidercide]

He asked her if she could make people fall in love with her, nothing about it being a power.

And he had no problem rejecting her when Daredevil distracted him with a photo of Vanessa.

And Matt had no problem on cheating on his wife Milla with Dakota North, so I don't know why him cheating on Karen is so unbelievable.

If you are asking if you can make someone fall in love with you that means you are asking if it's a power. Because no one can just MAKE that happen. Kingpin sent her after Murdock when his files on her never indicated she was like trained in seduction or such. He just presumed she's work. Even those trained in seduction cant seduce just ANYBODY. It's especially dumb considering if Matt's blind then visual physical attraction, i.e. THE biggest weapon in a seductor's arsenal is a none factor. So she has to do it via touch and connecting with him on a personal level. Except she barely does anything and he's immediately in deep with her. This makes no sense at all from a realistic POV, even by 1980s comic book standards. Unless she can telepathically influence men to be seduced by her. Same deal with Bullet, it's hyper unrealistic that he'd start flirting with her out of the blue immediately after she'd threatened his son and when she was still directly endagering his son

Matt had no problem controlling himself in regards to her in Last Rites and changed his feeling about her after spending time with Karen. Just cos she has this power doesn't = it's incapable of being overcome.

Milla and Dakota were long after this, we're discussing things in historical context of the 1980s. Not to mention his relationship with Karen and Milla weren't the same. With Milla there was at least the implication he was still grieving Karen/other factors were impacting his decision to marry her in the first place (IIRC something to do with his mind being affected but I'm not entirely recalling that I am afraid). With Karen though they'd known each other for longer, been through more and much more serious stuff together.

Someone cheating on one person doesn't = they will cheat upon everyone. This is actually my problem with Cyclops in Morrisson's run. people defend it on the ground that he abandonned Madelyn, when really I'm looking at it and going 'No, he's abandonning the woman he married because Jean's back. It's the fact that he's so hung up on Jean specifically."...plus I've never felt Madelyn was a healthy relationship. Scott falls in love with and married a woman who looks and sounds just like Jean what? Less than 2 years (in-universe) after Jean traumatically dies? That was doomed to fail tbh.

[Dum Dum Dugan]

You brought up Back in Black and Typhoid Fever, so are we still only talking about the comics from the 1980s?

And I still don't think it makes sense that Kingpin would enter a relationship with a woman he knows can control people like that. At the very least, we'd see him questioning whether or not he was being manipulated. Plus, he never had her use those powers on anyone again all the times she worked for him since then?

Like I said above, I can see Mary giving Matt a little nudge towards her to make him notice her, but not to the extent you're arguing. You brought up Matt saying he was "unwilling" as proof, when that was more about him catching her off guard by actively pursuing her instead of fighting back when she attacked him.

[Spidercide]

You know, I wish in season two of Iron Fist they allowed Typhoid to be Typhoid from the jump. I know they used her other personalities but not to use the more familiar one that the readers were introduced by Ann Nocenti was a huge disservice.

That's the Netflix shows all over though isn't it? 3 seasons in and Fisk is only now starting to resemble Kingpin. 4 seasons in and Luke Cage is STILL not a Hero for Hire.

The OP was talking about more than just Nocenti's run, so I thought it was fair game. Like they used DD telling Typhoid he was being "the pursuer instead of the unwilling partner" which I think was him talking about him pursuing her instead of her attacking him, and not him being "unwilling" because she was controlling him during their affair as Matt and Mary. Plus they mentioned the recent Typhoid Fever issue, even though Mary there was using a telepathic mutant to give her powers a massive boost somehow.

I can see Mary maybe giving Matt a little 'nudge' in her direction to catch his eye, just not to the extent the OP was arguing.

I used Nocenti's run and beyond beyond because that closed off the story arc set up by Nocenti, but even then the stuff from that run factored into what I was saying. Matt says he was being unwillingly pursued indicating he wasn't willing if it was a regular seduction. Also Let's be real in the 1990s writers were much better about consistent continuity than they've been in the 2000s. Correct me if I'm wrong but i'm pretty sure Bendis wrote Richard Fisk as just arbitrarily different to how he was in the 90s and 80s with no explanation, so Bendis is not the best thing to cite as far as continuity is concerned. Hell Bendis seems to think that

a) His 'last ever Daredevil story' is actually canon and
b) That Dark Knight Returns was actually canon when it was just an Elseworld's tale

It's also not like this is an isolated incident with Bendis. He does this across countless works. E.g. he ignored how and when Miles Morales got his web shooters in Spider-Men I...and he wrote BOTH those stories.

In regards to the 'unwilling' line of dialogue, I think it was deliberately innuendo. The context of the scene clearly frames it as a romantic/sexual encounter and it happens immediately after he tries to kiss her which freaks her out. And that freak out is what he was responding to.

Fair point about Typhoid Fever, I actually meant to delete that as it was from an earlier draft but I guess I forgot. That being said in Typhoid Fever if the telepathic mutant is boosting her powers that still means at their root she has that ability.

How can Typhoid Mary nudge Daredevil to catch his eye, he literally cannot see.

[Spidercide]

You brought up Back in Black and Typhoid Fever, so are we still only talking about the comics from the 1980s?

And I still don't think it makes sense that Kingpin would enter a relationship with a woman he knows can control people like that. At the very least, we'd see him questioning whether or not he was being manipulated. Plus, he never had her use those powers on anyone again all the times she worked for him since then?

Like I said above, I can see Mary giving Matt a little nudge towards her to make him notice her, but not to the extent you're arguing. You brought up Matt saying he was "unwilling" as proof, when that was more about him catching her off guard by actively pursuing her instead of fighting back when she attacked him.

Typhoid Fever was a leftover from an earlier draft I forgot to amend so sorry about that. Back In Black though was merely an example of a general character trait Fisk has always had, it isn't as though JMS established that, it was merely the most clear and obvious example. After all he took a hands on approach to fighting and antagonizing Spider-Man in the 1960s despite Spider-Man having super powers and Fisk himself not. Through both luck, Spidey's at times being injured or Spidey generally holding back from using his full power, Fisk was able to go toe-to-toe with him, but Fisk was still arrogant enough to think he could do that and come out on top.

It doesn't make sense from a coldly rationale or logical POV, but Fisk isn't coldly rationale or logical all the time and is immensly arrogant. In regards to entering into a relationship, I don't think he was thinking straight, that's my point. Typhoid nudged him towards that, hence it was so abrupt in both the issue he expressed interest in her and their first kiss.

Again we're talking about things in context, not necesarilly later stories.

Again though Matt's line about unwillingness was in the context of a romantic and sexual encounter because the framing of the scene and the actions he was taking were explicitely romantic/sexual in nature, he was trying to kiss her and they have sex in the next scene. So unwillingness and pursuit are not really purely in terms of physically fighting her, it's speaking to it on a emotional/mental level as well.

[Dum Dum Dugan]

This is what I was referring to when I said she nudged Daredevil to catch his eye (from the marvel handbook profile).



And I think that's the extent of how her telepathic powers work; she was able to draw his attention, not make him fall in love with her.

[Spidercide]

This is what I was referring to when I said she nudged Daredevil to catch his eye (from the marvel handbook profile).



And I think that's the extent of how her telepathic powers work; she was able to draw his attention, not make him fall in love with her.

I believe above someone cited another handbook entry which acknowledged that but also included an expansion of her powerset in line with what I am saying.

Also the Handbooks are not infallible and can miss out on stuff.

I once read a Spider-Man guide book approved by Marvel that listed Kraven's Last Hunt occurring before Spider-Man got married.