Marvel is trying way hard to make Carol Danvers their “Superwoman”... (Spoilers)

[JudicatorPrime]

I've had the same experience with kids using the Shazam name when I was a kid, but I never understood that. In the show, he's clearly called Captain Marvel at all times and the only time the word is used is for the change. The show even made things potentially less confusing by not using the Wizard Shazam in the show.

Some kids are just dumb.

Yep, that's exactly how I felt about my big bro at the time.

[Ichijinijisanji]

As I said above, I don't think that's right but I can't find an entry for Carol in her Ms Marvel identity (her Binary entry in my Deluxe Edition doesn't give her Ms Marvel stats), and the Deluxe Edition entry for Rogue specifically states that though Ms Marvel's stats were the duplicate of Mar-Vell, Rogue's are far higher for no obvious reason. In her original run I don't remember Ms Marvel being anywhere near the 50 ton range, and certainly in the Avengers (pre-Binary) she was far weaker than Wonder Man. Again, if you have a scan of Ms Marvel's entry it would be cool if you could post it of link to it, as I've only got her Binary entry (and I've seen her Warbird one, which doesn't go into details).

There's a lot of inconsistency in all their stuff. So I'm going to play Lawyer (which means I'm going to overanalyze words )

Ms marvel never had a separate entry in the older handbooks that told us her abilities.

Newer ones have it like this:

https://i.imgur.com/vu6C9mY.png

So she's 70 tons following subsequent genetic alterations, but post binary was able to maintain a level of strength "approximating" her original Ms. Marvel levels

(*note that subsequent genetic alterations probably refers to her suit's powers binding to her dna in the second psyche magnitron explosion)

Rogue's original entry didn't distinguish between Ms marvel and Mar-vell's abilities and basically said Rogue has Ms marvels strength (atleast 50 tons so possibly higher) and resistance to damage (not suggesting it was any higher)

https://i.imgur.com/aKhUSff.jpg?1

Deluxe uses the words "allegedly a duplicate", which means that claim isn't quite certain in itself.

Now 70 tons would be closer to rogue's "atleast 50 tons", enough to call it "approximating" her original Ms. Marvel levels. Atleast more than if Ms marvel's original levels were 10 tons (in which case it wouldn't be approximating that level at all)

So my theory in the previous post is an attempt/interpretation to link all of these things together to resolve inconsistencies.

[Panic]

There's a lot of inconsistency in all their stuff. So I'm going to play Lawyer (which means I'm going to overanalyze )

Ms marvel never had a separate entry in the older handbooks that told us her abilities.

Newer ones have it like this (70 originally and newer abilities post post binary allow her to maintain at that level before rogue took it away) :

https://i.imgur.com/vu6C9mY.png


Rogue's original entry didn't distinguish between Ms marvel and Mar-vell's abilities and basically said Rogue has Ms marvels strength (atleast 50 tons and possibly higher) and resistance to damage (not suggesting it was any higher)

https://i.imgur.com/aKhUSff.jpg?1

Deluxe uses the words "allegedly a duplicate", which means that claim isn't quite certain in itself.

So my theory in the previous post is an attempt/interpretation to link all of these things together to resolve inconsistencies.

Thank you for that, I really couldn't find those scans anywhere.

I'd still argue that Ms Marvel never displayed anywhere near class 50-70 in her original incarnation, especially in her time in the Avengers. I'd guess the 70 ton figure comes from that issue of X-Men written after the Deluxe Handbook stated that Rogue was Class 50, and Claremont responded by having Rogue lift 70 tons on panel. Carol never showed that kind of strength until after Rogue stole her powers and she went Binary, however.

Anyway, I don't think you're explanation is bad, just that nothing is going to make sense because Claremont wrote Rogue far stronger and more invulnerable than he'd ever written Ms Marvel, and when later writers put Carol back in the Ms Marvel identity they wanted to keep the strength level that had helped Rogue become so popular.

As I said before, Mar-Vell's powers varied from writer to writer, and no one could keep track of exactly where they came from.

[Ichijinijisanji]

Thank you for that, I really couldn't find those scans anywhere.

I'd still argue that Ms Marvel never displayed anywhere near class 50-70 in her original incarnation, especially in her time in the Avengers. I'd guess the 70 ton figure comes from that issue of X-Men written after the Deluxe Handbook stated that Rogue was Class 50, and Claremont responded by having Rogue lift 70 tons on panel. Carol never showed that kind of strength until after Rogue stole her powers and she went Binary, however.

Anyway, I don't think you're explanation is bad, just that nothing is going to make sense because Claremont wrote Rogue far stronger and more invulnerable than he'd ever written Ms Marvel, and when later writers put Carol back in the Ms Marvel identity they wanted to keep the strength level that had helped Rogue become so popular.

As I said before, Mar-Vell's powers varied from writer to writer, and no one could keep track of exactly where they came from.

I think I've seen her show that level of strength pre avengers 200 (able to beat hercules' sparring robot, lifting tanks etc), but then again she was surrounded by physical heavy hitters like thor, iron man, wonder-man (nearly class 100 originally by the handbook and also lifted 50,000 tons and could lift thor's training equipment), hercules and vision (density shifter who increased his strength to megatons) that her role as a heavy was minimized.

On the other hand rogue's team had colossus as a physical heavy hitter and rachel (who didn't really go physical that much) and that's it. So relatively speaking rogue would seem impressive because she wasn't surrounded by that level of multiple heavy hitters (and power creep due to writing would also come into play)

As things stand keeping all continuity, it makes sense. There's no particular reason why rogue should be stronger than ms marvel (maybe you could say their combined psionic energy amplified rogue's strength when she had ms marvel inside her)

Also, as far as mar-vell goes his history is complicated. He also had a bunch of transformations. Initially a kree warrior, then zo empowered him, then he got negabands, then protector of the universe and I think he transformed genetically as well. It's a bit difficult to keep track because I feel he should be much stronger than just 10 tons and his durability should also be higher. I mean this dude went up against some of the strongest, he should be much stronger and more durable than... idk spiderman? (who also seems to get better feats due to popularity+exposure)

As usual, I don't fully trust guidebooks, but this was an argument born from comparing guidebook descriptions so I would've preferred to keep it there instead of bringing in comic portrayals. I think even iron man had like 10 tons mentioned as his strength in the original one and deluxe one.

[DragonsChi]

I'm just going to say this and leave this thread...

When you take away/change the core characteristics or background or story elements of a character that character becomes nothing more than a cardboard doll. You can dress him/her how you like to suite the mood of the day but drop some water on it and you will quickly see how cheap and worthless it truly is.

Good characters build off their past to make them better. They don't have their past wiped away with a hand wave because it's not favorable for whatever reason. Good characters are very much like real people...Real people don't get redo's. They only get to learn from their mistakes/negative past and then get the opportunity to show that experience formed them for the better in the present. Good characters reflect the same and by doing so they keep people coming back for more.

Carol Danvers is now a essentially become a cardboard doll and the truth of the matter is people have recognized that ever since they put her on the path of tearing away everything she is as a character. The costume was never the issue it was the shifts in characterization, the ignoring of her history, and the "gee-wiz isn't she the best" that is still keeping people away from her. It's why her title is still selling low after close to 6 years of Marvel pushing her.

Some think that the movie will magically save her and maybe it will. However, that should not be the answer. Marvel as a company use to deeply care about staying true to their brand and to their characters. However, it seems more and more that the writers are only looking at the surface level stuff of these characters and paint the brush of this is who they are. Whipping away Mar-Vell from her origin does not make Carol Danvers stronger. No, it just shows that as a character she was not able to shine in spite of it and that the writers are incapable of taking the character to greatness on their own.

[LordUltimus]

Life of Captain Marvel #5 has been pushed back a month.

[Cmbmool]

I'm just going to say this and leave this thread...

When you take away/change the core characteristics or background or story elements of a character that character becomes nothing more than a cardboard doll. You can dress him her how you like to suite the mood of the day but drop some water on it and you will quickly see how cheap and worthless it truly is.

Good characters build off their past to make them better. They don't have their past wiped away with a hand wave because it's not favorable for whatever reason. Good characters are very much like real people...Real people don't get redo's. They only get to learn from their mistakes/negative past and then get the opportunity to show that experience formed them for the better in the present. Good characters reflect the same and they keep people coming back for more.

Carol Danvers is now a essentially become a cardboard doll and the truth of the matter people have recognized ever since they put her on the path of tearing away everything she is as a character. The costume was never the issue it was the shifts in characterization, the ignoring of her history, and the gee-wiz isn't she the best that is still keeping people away from this character. It's why her title is still selling low after close to 6 years of Marvel pushing her.

Some think that the movie will magically save her and maybe it will. However, that should not be the answer. Marvel as a company use to deeply care about staying true to their brand and to their characters. However, it seems more and more that the writers are only looking at the surface level stuff of these characters and painting the brush of this is who they are. Whipping away Mar-Vell from her origin does not make Carol Danvers stronger. No, it just shows that as a character she was not able to shine in spite of it and that the writers are incapable of taking the character to greatness on their own.

Well said and no excuse in the world from Marvel is going to change the fans mind given how much the picked away at Carol's character.

It's funny though....Ms. Marvel and Rogue, two characters influenced by Carol are having BETTER LIVES THAN CAROL DANVERS HERSELF. Talk about the sad truth of Captain Marvel and his overall legacy.

[Thor-Ul]

I think I've seen her show that level of strength pre avengers 200 (able to beat hercules' sparring robot, lifting tanks etc), but then again she was surrounded by physical heavy hitters like thor, iron man, wonder-man (nearly class 100 originally by the handbook and also lifted 50,000 tons and could lift thor's training equipment), hercules and vision (density shifter who increased his strength to megatons) that her role as a heavy was minimized.

On the other hand rogue's team had colossus as a physical heavy hitter and rachel (who didn't really go physical that much) and that's it. So relatively speaking rogue would seem impressive because she wasn't surrounded by that level of multiple heavy hitters (and power creep due to writing would also come into play).

I can accept that point.

As things stand keeping all continuity, it makes sense. There's no particular reason why rogue should be stronger than ms marvel (maybe you could say their combined psionic energy amplified rogue's strength when she had ms marvel inside her).

But could be possible than Rogue was in some way accumulatingall the other strengh she absorbed from other people?

Also, as far as mar-vell goes his history is complicated. He also had a bunch of transformations. Initially a kree warrior, then zo empowered him, then he got negabands, then protector of the universe and I think he transformed genetically as well. It's a bit difficult to keep track because I feel he should be much stronger than just 10 tons and his durability should also be higher. I mean this dude went up against some of the strongest, he should be much stronger and more durable than... idk spiderman? (who also seems to get better feats due to popularity+exposure)

I would say too than Mar-Vell was above Spider-Man in strengh level.

As usual, I don't fully trust guidebooks, but this was an argument born from comparing guidebook descriptions so I would've preferred to keep it there instead of bringing in comic portrayals. I think even iron man had like 10 tons mentioned as his strength in the original one and deluxe one.[/QUOTE]

Marvel's Handbooks are like the pirate code: they are more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

Life of Captain Marvel #5 has been pushed back a month.

Some rewritting from last hour? Or there are more pages added? Not a retro-retcon obviously. Or maybe a marketing strategy to make Carol, excuse, Car-Ell movie debut more interesting.

[kcekada]

It's true that the handbooks weren't always consistent with what was shown in the comic. I know at one point Beast was shown being able to balance a 500 pound barbell on one finger -- yet the handbook said he could only bench 1,000 pounds or maybe 1,500. Being that he was once the X-Men's strong guy -- I associated him with a bit higher amount of strength.

Ms. Marvel had a difficult time of taking on Tiger Shark in her original series. Looks like Tiger Shark can peak at 50 tons on land -- but up to 75 tons under water. Thundra who was at 65 ton limit -- easily overpowers Carol in an Avenger Annual. So it would seem 50 tons would be a bit kind for Ms. Marvel in her early days. But it is assumed that her power levels were still increasing (the psyche-magnitron wish fulfillment was an evolving process), so she may have been at that level by the time Rogue swiped her powers.

[Ichijinijisanji]

It's true that the handbooks weren't always consistent with what was shown in the comic. I know at one point Beast was shown being able to balance a 500 pound barbell on one finger -- yet the handbook said he could only bench 1,000 pounds or maybe 1,500. Being that he was once the X-Men's strong guy -- I associated him with a bit higher amount of strength.

Ms. Marvel had a difficult time of taking on Tiger Shark in her original series. Looks like Tiger Shark can peak at 50 tons on land -- but up to 75 tons under water. Thundra who was at 65 ton limit -- easily overpowers Carol in an Avenger Annual. So it would seem 50 tons would be a bit kind for Ms. Marvel in her early days. But it is assumed that her power levels were still increasing (the psyche-magnitron wish fulfillment was an evolving process), so she may have been at that level by the time Rogue swiped her powers.

A small addendum. She wasn't "easily overpowered" by thundra.

https://imgur.com/a/hhhA2GN

Neither of their blows did any damage to the other (sorry ladies, just passing through) although thundra did cheapshot ms marvel which launched her

eta: what's strange is that she did fight another class 75 in MM#8 (Grotesk) and did far better against him than Tigershark and seemed like a class 50 vs 75

[mikeb]

Life of Captain Marvel #5 has been pushed back a month.

I have noticed something odd...the issues of the Life of Captain Marvel have been coming out the same day as Mr. and Mrs. X. LOCM is coming out the same day as MMX #6. It could just be a coincidence...