Secret wars(2015)

[AHRNIHAL]

The ONE SINGLE COMPLAINT I have about Secret Wars is that the continuity near the end of 616 is confusing. Did Black Widow really give up her cat in Last Days? Did Infinity actually happen? Who knows?
Secret Wars is my favorite event. Period. My second favorite, Second Coming (Hey, second & second. Neat.) doesn't even come close.
Okay, if Black Widow really DID give up her cat, I guess I have two complaints, but hey. You can't win them all.

Did marvel really cut out Scott's role in Secret wars?I heard Hickman had plans for him.Did marvel made him to kill Scott?

[Vishop]

You have to consider just how much work Hickman was putting in towards the end of his Avengers run. He was writing multiple books, consulting on others, and trying to bring home one of the most ambitious runs in modern Marvel. You say you are not an Fantastic Four fan, but the New Avengers run leads directly out of Hickman’s FF run and he incorporates many of those ideas in Secret Wars.

Yeah maybe that was the reason i liked Hickman's Avengers more than New Avengers c'ause i find some things unanswered out of New Avengers(even after sharing this with some users in other forums) .
Like for instance the at the beginning of Times Runs Out when Reed asked Susan about the kids , Susan said that "Franklin has disappointed him" . I didn't get too much about the reason why he was in disappointed him . But i didn't cared about those things much tbh .

Honestly i have liked Hickman's Infinity more than SW , but that's my personal opinion c'ause i am little biased towards my favorite characters like Cap and Thor .


P.S:I have heard somewhere that the editorial was behind Hickman's ending during Times Runs Out and what i have learned from Hickman's works is that he likes to take things at a slow pace which i liked pretty much .

[Rumble]

Did marvel really cut out Scott's role in Secret wars?I heard Hickman had plans for him.Did marvel made him to kill Scott?

There were rumors or second-hand sources that said Hickman originally wanted either Xavier or Magneto to be in the illuminati from onset but had to settle for Beast because Xavier was going to get killed off (AvX) and i dunno what was going on with Magneto. Also rumors that he wanted Storm to be on the team and for her & BP to continue doing adult things with each other while maintaining separation to the public eye but apparently that got shut down too.

I don't recall what the rumors or hearsay was about Cyclops, bc it's been like 2-3 years since Secret Wars and almost 6 years since his Avengers run started... but i always found it interesting (and entirely random) that Cyclops just randomly showed up with a phoenix egg on doomsday and i'm not sure it was ever explained when or how that happened. Seemed like something Hickman would have mapped out as a subplot if he was allowed a longer leash with the x-characters.

I think Magneto, heel-Cyclops, or Emma Frost would've been interesting additions to the Illuminati in place of Beast.

[jackolover]

Hate is strong. Marvel had a responsibility to its brands to keep them protected from degradation, and Secret Wars was like giving up. Like running out of ideas or where to go. Secret Wars was the end of the Marvel Universe. I don’t know how you could spin it any other way.

ANAD doesn’t seem to have improved the brands any. ANAD is like running on the spot, because they basically gave up, unless I’m missing something here. Maybe somebody could enlighten me about it?

[Username taken]

Secret Wars was amazing.

Not sure how anyone can hate it. Even the tie-ins were pretty good.

[Iron Maiden]

I had fun reading some of the old discussion threads linked on the previous page. Some of them went on for 40 pages or more. We've not had that for a while. Discussions of Hickman's New Avengers were pretty intense too.

[JKtheMac]

Hate is strong. Marvel had a responsibility to its brands to keep them protected from degradation, and Secret Wars was like giving up. Like running out of ideas or where to go. Secret Wars was the end of the Marvel Universe. I don’t know how you could spin it any other way.

ANAD doesn’t seem to have improved the brands any. ANAD is like running on the spot, because they basically gave up, unless I’m missing something here. Maybe somebody could enlighten me about it?

Your opinion is too coloured by what happened after. Secret Wars was an opportunity but it wasn't grasped properly by the editors. It wasn't supposed to be an ending just a merging and folding-in of various universes and characters.

If like me you think ANAD was mostly OK and some of it very good indeed, and that the fan reaction to most of the controversies were less about comics and more about the culture wars in the prevailing culture, then there is no reason to see Secret Wars as responsible for any of that.

[jackolover]

Your opinion is too coloured by what happened after. Secret Wars was an opportunity but it wasn't grasped properly by the editors. It wasn't supposed to be an ending just a merging and folding-in of various universes and characters.

If like me you think ANAD was mostly OK and some of it very good indeed, and that the fan reaction to most of the controversies were less about comics and more about the culture wars in the prevailing culture, then there is no reason to see Secret Wars as responsible for any of that.

The way I would have done Secret Wars, would be as a What If? Then return back to the 616, but with a reconciliation between Steve Rogers and Tony Stark. And make the Illuminati a permanent thing but with oversight. I would have wanted a Superhuman Truce. Not just for heroes, but for villains too. Anybody who thinks the heroes are different to the villains, hasn’t been taking any notice in the last decade or so. I don’t think the heroes have presented well at all since Avengers Disassembled, and I think that should be acknowledged by the hero fraternity on confrontation by the authorities.

That means nothing in ANAD would ever have been done. As far as I’m concerned, ANAD was a Reed Richards fairyland made-up on the fly from his own imagination of what the world should be like. Forget Standoff, CWII, and Secret Empire ever happened. Make a do-over, and return to the place just after AXIS. Everything else (TRO, SW’s, ANAD), never happened in the 616. Think ANAD never happened. Whatever’s going on there seems like it unhooked out of all the continuity built up since the beginning. It’s like Vertigo took over.

[JKtheMac]

The way I would have done Secret Wars, would be as a What If? Then return back to the 616, but with a reconciliation between Steve Rogers and Tony Stark. And make the Illuminati a permanent thing but with oversight. I would have wanted a Superhuman Truce. Not just for heroes, but for villains too. Anybody who thinks the heroes are different to the villains, hasn’t been taking any notice in the last decade or so. I don’t think the heroes have presented well at all since Avengers Disassembled, and I think that should be acknowledged by the hero fraternity on confrontation by the authorities.

And all of that is a totally different story. You can't meaningfully criticise a story by comparing it to a story that only exists in your own head. It is the largest pitfall of the dissatisfied critic. To assume that mistakes were made or that if only they had done this other thing it would be perfect.

Writers like Hickman don't do things by accident. (Well they do but they get to decide if they fit in the story and whether to keep them or not.) This story wasn't about reconciliation it was a tragedy. I personally would have felt cheated if in the last act it had suddenly turned into a comedy. that would have been like watching Hamlet for the first time and in the last act it was suddenly all resolved amicably. That would have undermined everything else in the play.

That means nothing in ANAD would ever have been done. As far as I’m concerned, ANAD was a Reed Richards fairyland made-up on the fly from his own imagination of what the world should be like. Forget Standoff, CWII, and Secret Empire ever happened. Make a do-over, and return to the place just after AXIS. Everything else (TRO, SW’s, ANAD), never happened in the 616. Think ANAD never happened. Whatever’s going on there seems like it unhooked out of all the continuity built up since the beginning. It’s like Vertigo took over.

You are bringing this 'fairyland' interpretation to the books. It isn't actually supported by the books. This was the best world he could put together. It is as identical to the world before the collision as he could make it with the exception of the resurrection of Wakanda and a dozen or so orphan characters from the 1610. The idea was clearly that the writers could carry on as if nothing had happened except if the writers wanted to address things. Yes some mistakes were made by the editors afterwards, but they are the kind of mistakes that may have been made anyway. This is still the same universe for all writing purposes, it just has a few other characters in it.

It isn't Hickman's fault that the X-Books messed up their continuity. It wasn't his idea to jump Spider-Man ahead to a time when he was a CEO (which I was fine with). Every writer afterwards simply had to tell their stories in interesting ways just like always. Some rose to the challenge and some didn't.

To bundle everything that has happened since together and make it a single thing is just dishonest. Like always it was a loose association of lots of things going on concurrently.

[CentralPower]

My only real complaint about "Secret Wars" was scale. It was line-wide, and the event itself was over-shadowed by the tie-ins. The event itself was not bad. But, the lead-in was (to be blunt) better. And, some of the tie-ins were more memorable.

Most i can see is "dislike/hate" on secret wars 2015.But why?

Most of this is just reflexive fantrums about events.

..... and hate for Cyclop's death.

...and X-fans with a persecution complex.

Yes, we knew it wasn't the true end for Marvel, but the ending of the first issue tore me up. We knew things would be OK, but we didn't know how. At the time, there was also a lot of talk about the end of the X-Men and Fantastic Four franchises, so many of us were questioning if this was how Disney would do it.

Some of us (including myself) expected more significant changes, specifically no more alternative universes. Quesada is known to disparage the idea of an organized multiverse, and "Secret Wars" looked like the end of that at Marvel. But, yes, the end was impressive.

One of the theories that I heard was that the editorial divisions would have been more formalized. Avengers would be under one department, X-Men under another.... They would have functionally been different imprints, and likely not been meant to sync up. (I sort of wanted to see that.)

I think the only "hate" thread was one where people were saying Doom brainwashed 616 Susan into being his wife and it was a big argument trying to tell people she wasn't 616 Susan.

It really depends on who you asked, and when.

My guess is that Battleworld Sue was originally intended to be 616 Sue. (The same applies to the kids.) But, then somebody at Marvel (maybe an editorial assistant, maybe the coffee guy) realized the problem with this, and things changed. (The problem of course is that there is no way Doom could be allowed to come back from kid-napping, brainwashing and presumably raping Sue Richards. Of course, having him brainwash an alternate Sue is only mildly less problematic.)

The scene where Battleworld Sue recounts how she met Doom was late enough in the series that I can believe it could have been added later. The editorial statements about this are "word of god". "Word of god" is valid when it is from the writers or editors. But, it is still a change from the original plan (if we assume that the plan changed).

Did Black Widow really give up her cat in Last Days? Did Infinity actually happen? Who knows?
Secret Wars is my favorite event. Period. My second favorite, Second Coming (Hey, second & second. Neat.) doesn't even come close.
Okay, if Black Widow really DID give up her cat, I guess I have two complaints, but hey. You can't win them all.

I think that the cat was killed in a flashback. Of course, Widow is a monster regardless, so it really does not matter.

Assume that most of Hickman's run was ambiguated out by the end.

The last page of "Secret Wars" shows Black Panther reliving the first few pages of "New Avengers" (the earliest events leading in to "Time Runs Out"), but with different results.

In "New Avengers", Swan and her band of monsters show up and kill Panther's students during the first near-incursion. In "Secret Wars", the incursion never happens. Something likely happened for the time covered by Hickman's run. And, there may have been a multiversal threat. But, it was not as depicted during Hickman's run. (Marvel has been contrary on this. Some characters remember. Some do not. Some sources say that only a few remember. Others have the incursions being mentioned on the news as a thing that happened recently.)

Some of the Thanos and Builder parts of "Infinity" likely happened. (The zebra kids showed up post-"Secret Wars" in "New Avengers".

"Axis" likely happened, but much differently. ("Axis" was problematic because it did not make sense for the heroes to waste time on the Red Skull when the world was ending.) Sabertooth was still heroic after "Secret Wars." But, there is no evidence that Iron Man's actions during "Superior Iron Man" or "Time Runs Out" carried over.


Interesting aside, Remender's (largely forgettable) "Uncanny Avengers" had an arc that showed several pre-ambiguated futures getting wiped out, with a handful of signature characters surviving (under Kang's protection). Some fans saw that as Marvel protecting a few characters they wanted to keep. (The futures were depicted in a way that did not firmly say they were alternate futures. They could have been a single, unified, timeline.)



In real terms, continuity between different series (and creative teams) has not been a priority for years. Fans need to accept this.

[jackolover]

And all of that is a totally different story. You can't meaningfully criticise a story by comparing it to a story that only exists in your own head. It is the largest pitfall of the dissatisfied critic. To assume that mistakes were made or that if only they had done this other thing it would be perfect.

Writers like Hickman don't do things by accident. (Well they do but they get to decide if they fit in the story and whether to keep them or not.) This story wasn't about reconciliation it was a tragedy. I personally would have felt cheated if in the last act it had suddenly turned into a comedy. that would have been like watching Hamlet for the first time and in the last act it was suddenly all resolved amicably. That would have undermined everything else in the play.



You are bringing this 'fairyland' interpretation to the books. It isn't actually supported by the books. This was the best world he could put together. It is as identical to the world before the collision as he could make it with the exception of the resurrection of Wakanda and a dozen or so orphan characters from the 1610. The idea was clearly that the writers could carry on as if nothing had happened except if the writers wanted to address things. Yes some mistakes were made by the editors afterwards, but they are the kind of mistakes that may have been made anyway. This is still the same universe for all writing purposes, it just has a few other characters in it.

It isn't Hickman's fault that the X-Books messed up their continuity. It wasn't his idea to jump Spider-Man ahead to a time when he was a CEO (which I was fine with). Every writer afterwards simply had to tell their stories in interesting ways just like always. Some rose to the challenge and some didn't.

To bundle everything that has happened since together and make it a single thing is just dishonest. Like always it was a loose association of lots of things going on concurrently.

I don’t think ending Secret Wars amicably would have been the way to go either. Think House of M where everybody woke up one morning and either of two things happened.

1/ as I stated earlier, ANAD never happened but the world wasn’t like the 616 anymore, and the general public wanted the super heroes to take responsibility for Secret Wars. Draw up the Villains Truce and defuse all the tension that makes Norman Osborn and the Kingpin want to carve up the world. Better that, than let the Illuminati run things that caused Secret Wars.

Or

2/. You could do an ANAD like waking up from a HOM as well, but have uncle Ben not have died, and someone write the difficulty of Peter Parker having to reconcile he never had to become Spider-Man. You could do tonnes of those fudged story lines. The Soviets won WWII, Australia was now Japans heavy industry because isolationist America never came to the Coral Sea battle or the European theatre, and now there are Civil Wars in Europe like it was in the Balkans, after the Soviet Empire collapsed, and, America did split into two countries North and South. That wouldn’t be too amicable either.

Making the ANAD the way it turned out was amicable. Too amicable. You’d think something like Secret Wars 2015 would leave a lot more scars on the MU than something that looked a lot like the 616 it just left behind.

[CentralPower]

You could do an ANAD like waking up from a HOM as well...

The point of "All New All Different" was to have things set back to a more conventional status quo, after the radical changes of "Secret Wars". That is why Spencer's "Captain America" (leading in to "Secret Empire") was so jarring. Even the Bendis "Iron Man" had 6 months of relatively conventional "Stark in a suit" stuff. "Spider-Man" returned to the trajectory it was on before "Secret Wars".

As much as I liked "Secret Wars", I doubt that Marvel wanted to do more line-wide deviations after 3 months worth of an unavoidable cross-over.

Making the ANAD the way it turned out was amicable. Too amicable. You’d think something like Secret Wars 2015 would leave a lot more scars on the MU than something that looked a lot like the 616 it just left behind.

All New All Different works if one assumes that Hickman's run ("Time Runs Out") and "Secret Wars" never happened and are only remembered by a few people (which is clearly the intent based on "Secret Wars"). Yes, there are inconsistencies. But, at a certain point, readers need to accept those inconsistencies and move on.

(For example, Robinson's "Squadron Supreme" is not the source one should be citing. It was barely consistent with itself. I am more inclined to go with Bendis' "Iron Man" and Ewing's "Contest of Champions", which show that Stark does not recall "Secret Wars" or "Time Runs Out".)

Tony Stark either never went bad (ref: "Superior Iron Man"), or at least was set right much sooner (before the events of Superior). Captain America and Iron Man did not beat each other to death as the world burned around them. (Note Captain America's age during "Time Runs Out" and at the beginning of Spencer's post-"Secret Wars" run.)

[jackolover]

The point of "All New All Different" was to have things set back to a more conventional status quo, after the radical changes of "Secret Wars". That is why Spencer's "Captain America" (leading in to "Secret Empire") was so jarring. Even the Bendis "Iron Man" had 6 months of relatively conventional "Stark in a suit" stuff. "Spider-Man" returned to the trajectory it was on before "Secret Wars".

As much as I liked "Secret Wars", I doubt that Marvel wanted to do more line-wide deviations after 3 months worth of an unavoidable cross-over.



All New All Different works if one assumes that Hickman's run ("Time Runs Out") and "Secret Wars" never happened and are only remembered by a few people (which is clearly the intent based on "Secret Wars"). Yes, there are inconsistencies. But, at a certain point, readers need to accept those inconsistencies and move on.

(For example, Robinson's "Squadron Supreme" is not the source one should be citing. It was barely consistent with itself. I am more inclined to go with Bendis' "Iron Man" and Ewing's "Contest of Champions", which show that Stark does not recall "Secret Wars" or "Time Runs Out".)

Tony Stark either never went bad (ref: "Superior Iron Man"), or at least was set right much sooner (before the events of Superior). Captain America and Iron Man did not beat each other to death as the world burned around them. (Note Captain America's age during "Time Runs Out" and at the beginning of Spencer's post-"Secret Wars" run.)

How do you mean Caps age in TRO and Spencer’s run? The two Steve Rogers look the same age and build to me. Before TRO, Steve Rogers was thin, frail and using a walking stick when he handed Sam Wilson the mission of being Cap, but in TRO Steve had a big build again, and looked very hardy.