Have writers become lost on what Ben Reilly should be?

[Scarlet Spider-Man]

i see where you're coming from, and i don't disagree. though i'd probably say "discarded" rather than "disliked"

but i'm somewhat forgiving. all art/entertainment is experimental...and sometimes you take risks and fail

I agree. It's when they double-down on the mistake that I take issue.

[MJM Mystery Writer]

Yeah, One Ben is the good version we know and love and the other is the tainted evil one that Marvel seem to want to go with.

Y'know, that could actually work. Every great hero has their exact opposite. The Yin to their Yang. Peter has Norman; Batman has the Joker. Hell, this concept worked for the Sentry, didn't it?

Having Ben travel the country trying to capture his evil clone, or have Ben & Kaine team up to do it....that's a story every Ben fan can get behind. Each story arc would take place in a new town. Ben & Kaine could have sorta the DC's version of Hawk & Dove (original versions) brotherly dynamic.

I don't think the writers at Marvel put a lot of thought into it when they were kicking around ideas for a "Ben" themed book. His fans loved the "Lost Years" and "Redemption" storylines. Why didn't they go with something like that? Hell, even his back-up stories in the "Web of" books were set in Europe. That would've been cool, too!

[HypnoHustler]

I agree. It's when they double-down on the mistake that I take issue.

They’ve been double downing on OMD and the Mephisto deal for over a decade. At least DC course corrects like they did when New 52 failed. Marvel is too arrogant and stubborn to admit when something isn’t working.

[WebLurker]

They’ve been double downing on OMD and the Mephisto deal for over a decade. At least DC course corrects like they did when New 52 failed. Marvel is too arrogant and stubborn to admit when something isn’t working.

Maybe it did work and we're too close to the issue to see that it did (and I'm saying this as a card-carrying OMD hater)?

[boots]

i have zero feelings towards OMD either way, but the best way i could empathise is how much i hated ben reilly’s death in #75. was legit depressed, hit up the message boards, said marvel had slapped me in the face. you know the drill

but looking at it hindsight? i understand why they did it...and i might even have done the same in their shoes

[HypnoHustler]

Maybe it did work and we're too close to the issue to see that it did (and I'm saying this as a card-carrying OMD hater)?

I think after 11 years, we can say it was a failure. 11 years is not "close to the issue." The marriage was only 20. And for most people, I don't even think the main problem is that Pete and MJ split up. I think the problem is HOW it was done.... through a deal with the devil. That's antithesis to everything Peter Parker is supposed to represent as a character. I think if the means in which it were done were changed or retconned, it would undo a lot of the ill will people still carry from OMD.... even if Peter was still single afterwards. My two cents.

[HypnoHustler]

i have zero feelings towards OMD either way, but the best way i could empathise is how much i hated ben reilly’s death in #75. was legit depressed, hit up the message boards, said marvel had slapped me in the face. you know the drill

but looking at it hindsight? i understand why they did it...and i might even have done the same in their shoes

I was upset when Ben died, but after seeing what's been done with him since he was brought back, I wish it had stuck. I wanted Ben back for so long and when it finally happened in the way it did I definitely felt some "be careful what you wish for" regret.

The Clone Saga probably required Ben's death to end, and in retrospect 'Revelations' was a pretty decent story (although I thought the robot kids part was pretty dumb). Ironically, nowadays, they'd just spin him off in his own Spider-Man book outside of NYC. There's so many Spider-Man copies (from 2099 to Miles and beyond) that I don't think yet another Spidey would be a big deal now like it was back then.

[Miles To Go]

Maybe it did work and we're too close to the issue to see that it did

It didn't work, and ASM has been charting much more healthfully since Spencer put Peter and MJ back together.

[Zeitgeist]

Having a Ben Reilly who struggles to buy ingredients for his webbing, while still trying to afford his cell phone bill

Sounds just like Peter tbh, and that's the thing - you can't have Ben as a down-on-his-luck Spider-hero AND sell books, because we have one of those. Presenting him as more of the same may be fun for nostalgia and his fans, but it's just diminishing returns on a market already cornered by your main Spidey book.

It didn't work, and ASM has been charting much more healthfully since Spencer put Peter and MJ back together.

Maybe it's been the fresh relaunch with a new team? If Peter and MJ shifted books to the degree you believe, Renew Your Vows would be doing a lot better.

[Mister Mets]

I agree. It's when they double-down on the mistake that I take issue.

They’ve been double downing on OMD and the Mephisto deal for over a decade. At least DC course corrects like they did when New 52 failed. Marvel is too arrogant and stubborn to admit when something isn’t working.

Maybe it did work and we're too close to the issue to see that it did (and I'm saying this as a card-carrying OMD hater)?

i have zero feelings towards OMD either way, but the best way i could empathise is how much i hated ben reilly’s death in #75. was legit depressed, hit up the message boards, said marvel had slapped me in the face. you know the drill

but looking at it hindsight? i understand why they did it...and i might even have done the same in their shoes

I think after 11 years, we can say it was a failure. 11 years is not "close to the issue." The marriage was only 20. And for most people, I don't even think the main problem is that Pete and MJ split up. I think the problem is HOW it was done.... through a deal with the devil. That's antithesis to everything Peter Parker is supposed to represent as a character. I think if the means in which it were done were changed or retconned, it would undo a lot of the ill will people still carry from OMD.... even if Peter was still single afterwards. My two cents.

I was upset when Ben died, but after seeing what's been done with him since he was brought back, I wish it had stuck. I wanted Ben back for so long and when it finally happened in the way it did I definitely felt some "be careful what you wish for" regret.

The Clone Saga probably required Ben's death to end, and in retrospect 'Revelations' was a pretty decent story (although I thought the robot kids part was pretty dumb). Ironically, nowadays, they'd just spin him off in his own Spider-Man book outside of NYC. There's so many Spider-Man copies (from 2099 to Miles and beyond) that I don't think yet another Spidey would be a big deal now like it was back then.

It didn't work, and ASM has been charting much more healthfully since Spencer put Peter and MJ back together.

Sounds just like Peter tbh, and that's the thing - you can't have Ben as a down-on-his-luck Spider-hero AND sell books, because we have one of those. Presenting him as more of the same may be fun for nostalgia and his fans, but it's just diminishing returns on a market already cornered by your main Spidey book.




Maybe it's been the fresh relaunch with a new team? If Peter and MJ shifted books to the degree you believe, Renew Your Vows would be doing a lot better.

If you want to argue whether One More Day was successful in the wake of Peter and MJ's reconciliation, there is a new thread on that topic.

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...s-It-Pointless

[SuperiorIronman]

You know, a way at solving the whole Ben Reilly thing was potentially to build up the business angle. New U could've been the way to do that as people tend to like Spider-man making a bunch of gadgets for himself. One thing worth noting is that Ben basically scrounged up his own gear and still managed to upgrade the webshooters. Had PAD been paying attention to things like Spider-man Homecoming and Spider-man PS4, he could've used that as a way to make an easy "in" for the audience. Then factor in Superior Octopus and you have a business, and physical rival to Scarlet Spider. Otto and Ben both fight each other in the business and superhero world and thus when Otto goes Spider-man later, Ben can have an arc where he struggles with his place in the world if Ben can be corrupted and Otto of all people can be Spider-man.

[Huntsman Spider]

You know, a way at solving the whole Ben Reilly thing was potentially to build up the business angle. New U could've been the way to do that as people tend to like Spider-man making a bunch of gadgets for himself. One thing worth noting is that Ben basically scrounged up his own gear and still managed to upgrade the webshooters. Had PAD been paying attention to things like Spider-man Homecoming and Spider-man PS4, he could've used that as a way to make an easy "in" for the audience. Then factor in Superior Octopus and you have a business, and physical rival to Scarlet Spider. Otto and Ben both fight each other in the business and superhero world and thus when Otto goes Spider-man later, Ben can have an arc where he struggles with his place in the world if Ben can be corrupted and Otto of all people can be Spider-man.

He'd have to be a very reclusive businessman or find a way to adequately disguise his facial features, lest someone remark on his resemblance to Peter Parker, or Peter's resemblance to "that new big-time biotech CEO."

[David Walton]

It's pretty common for characters to be reinvented after long absences.

Personally, I'd prefer that Ben be written closer to his original incarnation, but I can see why Marvel felt the need to distinguish him from that era since his original purpose had already been fulfilled. PAD is one of the most consistently thoughtful writers out there and I think he did well with the concept.

I'm personally hopeful that this Ben is yet another clone, and the 'real' Ben is still out there somewhere. That's just my personal take, I don't fault Marvel a bit for doing it differently. But hey, I'm also the guy who thinks Norman Osborn being a clone would explain a lot about his personality changes from ASM 122 to SM75.

[Huntsman Spider]

It's pretty common for characters to be reinvented after long absences.

Personally, I'd prefer that Ben be written closer to his original incarnation, but I can see why Marvel felt the need to distinguish him from that era since his original purpose had already been fulfilled. PAD is one of the most consistently thoughtful writers out there and I think he did well with the concept.

I'm personally hopeful that this Ben is yet another clone, and the 'real' Ben is still out there somewhere. That's just my personal take, I don't fault Marvel a bit for doing it differently. But hey, I'm also the guy who thinks Norman Osborn being a clone would explain a lot about his personality changes from ASM 122 to SM75.

Norman being a clone, or reanimated by an actual demon, would explain a lot very nicely.