Who Should Be More Powerful: Shazam or Superman?

[Kon93]

I absolutely agree with all of this.

However, since Billy doesn't exist on his own earth, he's second to Clark. But I feel very comfortable saying he's tied with Diana.

Personally, I'd roll the Charlton characters, and a few other faces (like Booster Gold) into earth-5 as well. I think the likes of Captain Atom, Peacemaker, and Beetle would add nicely to the Fawcett bench, and while Fawcett does have more characters than just Shazam, it still doesn't have a lot of IP's to offer.

On the bench is exactly where he would be though.everytime I read someone wanting Billy in another universe I wonder if they get that he would be lost in the deck of characters only used for multiverse type stories,and not every month,which we are getting now.DC is not gonna break up the DCU into multiple different universes,they publish almost exclusively earth 1 stories,not 1 from each earth that us fans would think a character would fit better.

Having Billy keep his mind as a kid is his niche (besides magic of course) to differ from superman,that's also what makes him not the top dog,but it also better than that gives him the ability to be way more fun.

[Ascended]

On the bench is exactly where he would be though.everytime I read someone wanting Billy in another universe I wonder if they get that he would be lost in the deck of characters only used for multiverse type stories,and not every month,which we are getting now.DC is not gonna break up the DCU into multiple different universes,they publish almost exclusively earth 1 stories,not 1 from each earth that us fans would think a character would fit better.

Oh, I understand the business reasoning as well as I'm able to without access to data I don't have. I just disagree with DC's conclusion that alternate-earth titles aren't viable. Obviously they're the experts with the marketing data and one would assume they know their business better than I do....but this is also the same management that can't see the profitability in IP's like Nightwing and John Stewart and who thought a edgy 90's reboot in 2011 was a good idea, so I'll second guess many of their choices and feel pretty confident about it.

Having Billy keep his mind as a kid is his niche (besides magic of course) to differ from superman,that's also what makes him not the top dog,but it also better than that gives him the ability to be way more fun.

Oh, I like Shazam having Billy's mind. I love "Big" stories (a older Tom Hanks film, for anyone too young to know the reference). I actually wouldn't change much at all about how Johns has re positioned the IP; I think he's done an expert job putting the franchise in a real sweet spot between "Potter" and "Avengers" that should have a whole lot of mass market appeal and breathe new life into the characters.

[Jim Kelly]

I much prefer Captain Marvel on Earth S!/5. But if DC thinks that an ongoing SHAZAM! series has to be on the primary Earth, there's an easy solution. Just introduce a new Billy Batson on that Earth, who becomes Shazam's champion, but give the old wizard an origin that says he wanders the multiverse--thus there still is a Captain Marvel on S!/5, who has the history of the Fawcett Captain Marvel. And the Rock of Eternity is a gateway to all these different Earths. This is kind of what was established in other continuities (pre-Crisis and Ordway).

[phantom1592]

I absolutely agree with all of this.

However, since Billy doesn't exist on his own earth, he's second to Clark. But I feel very comfortable saying he's tied with Diana.

Oh... I think he should be more powerful than Diana, but that's just a personal preference. I think she's 90% overrated.


Between Superman and Shazam... I hate to say, but I really have to go with Superman. The way I look at it, Shazam's wisdom is overrated when Superman ALSO has super intelligence and kryptonian science and robots and whatever else he needs...

And that's where the tipping point is. They both should be pretty equally strong... equally fast... equally tough... Equal flight... but then you get the freeze breath, heat vision, super senses, etc. etc. etc.... Where they line up, they're equal, but Superman just has a LOT more weapons in his arsenal than Billy has. This new twist of 'casting spells' could change things, but I haven't seen enough of it to determine yet. And frankly I hope it doesn't. I see Captain Marvel as a less ridiculously overpowered Superman... Someone with awesome baseline powers and without the deus ex machina that Superman has when he needs it... Giving Billy MORE power isn't going to help him any.

[liwanag]

i would go with superman.

[phantom1592]

I'm going to say Shazam. He's an immortal wizard. He'd just turn Supes into a frog or something.

Depending on the Superhero... Being turned into a Frog doesn't mean the fights over.




Now I want to see Super-frog!

[greatmetropolitan]

My own head canon is always that no matter how far you push him, Superman always has a little extra to give if it means saving the day. That's why he's Superman. He's the only character I don't put hard limits on in that sense. He almost never goes full out, and even if you THINK he's going full out, if he needs that 1% more to save lives, then he'll find it.

In universe, I'm fine with the status quo I think Judd Winnick set up in his First Thunder mini. He basically implied that Captain Marvel is a little slower, a liiiittle weaker or maybe on par in terms of raw strength. But while his invulnerability wasn't quite as good as Clark's, he had incredible magical resistance (you see him throwing off an attack that had Superman paralyzed, I think), and innate knowledge of magical matters thanks to Solomon.

Happy to land on this where I do with Clark and Diana - all three are 10/10, stat wise, but their "points" are allocated differently. But Clark can be an 11/10 if the situation reeeeeally calls for it.

[Killerbee911]

I will just throw into the convo that DC has Professor X with brick powerset which is pretty ridiculous but he also has shape-shifting, intangibility, invisibility, telekinesis, regeneration and Heat vision as well for some reason. Take the popularity armor out of convo the there is very scary green alien around in this non elder god/cosmic entity most powerful showdown. Just saying Orion, Captain Atom,Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter are going fans are leaving us out convo again..

As for the intended convo Superman is shown to be slightly more powerful overall historically, in the match up head to head then Captain Marvel use of Magic means he has solid means of hurting Superman. Superman is more powerful but Captain Marvel is favored against Superman because he can better create advantage in the match up.

[greatmetropolitan]

There's an argument to be made that Captain Marvel has always been portrayed as slightly below Superman, because he's always only stalemated Superman while having a clear advantage in his magical powerset. This implies that the Captain is maybe a 9/10, but the magic brings Superman down to 9/10 from 10/10, to make the fight even.

[dancj]

This is a really common misconception, but Superman isn't weak to magic per se. He's just no more invulnerable to it than anyone else. He's no more susceptible to it than Batman, The Flash or the like.

I'd go one further. He's no more vulnerable to magic than J'onn J'onzz, Captain Atom, probably Wonder Woman and any other hero who doesn't have a specific defence against magic. And as far as I'm aware (though I could be wrong) this would include Captain Marvel.

Furthermore, if something is magically given the ability to hit really hard, it's still hitting and Superman is still invulnerable to that.

But as pointed out above, the wizard Shazam could probably turn him or anyone else into a frog.

[greatmetropolitan]

For what it's worth, I tend to go by the "magic not a weakness, just not an invulnerability" angle, too, but it has been presented as an explicit weakness before. I remember the JLA 10th Circle story, Claremont, I think, where they made reference to "Superman's unique vulnerability to magic." However, I think Kurt Busiek defined it thusly - someone uses magic to make themselves strong and punch Clark, he takes no more damage than from non-magical strength, however a "cut anything" spell would cut even Superman, he'd have no real defence.

Basically it's never been properly defined by DC editorial, and has been explained differently in different books.

[dancj]

For what it's worth, I tend to go by the "magic not a weakness, just not an invulnerability" angle, too, but it has been presented as an explicit weakness before. I remember the JLA 10th Circle story, Claremont, I think, where they made reference to "Superman's unique vulnerability to magic." However, I think Kurt Busiek defined it thusly - someone uses magic to make themselves strong and punch Clark, he takes no more damage than from non-magical strength, however a "cut anything" spell would cut even Superman, he'd have no real defence.

Basically it's never been properly defined by DC editorial, and has been explained differently in different books.

Yeah. Some writers get it wrong. Busiek gets it right. And I do wish editorial would be stricter on this.

[greatmetropolitan]

Yeah. Some writers get it wrong. Busiek gets it right. And I do wish editorial would be stricter on this.

I mean, I agree with the Busiek take, but as there's no official ruling from editorial and one writer's take is as valid as another's till they're over-ruled from higher up, I'm not sure we can say someone is definitely wrong or right, just who we agree or disagree with. Pre-Crisis Superman was massively, explicitly weak to magic, so there's precedent for that take. Again, not what I'd go with but it's a valid reading.

I think if I were to go down the route of full out magical vulnerability, I'd tie it to him being Kryptonian and so out of tune with Earth's magical rhythms or some such nonsense.

[Killerbee911]

Magic is a weakness for Superman,If one of the only ways you can hurt something is with Magic that is a weakness. It does not matter if he isn't more inherently weak to magic. If you are planning to attack superman Kryptonite, Red Sun and Magic is how you would go about attack him. I don't know why people seem to think that clarification matters all that much. If you read the headline Dr Fate, Zatanna or John Constantine killed Superman in a story,You know how they probably kill him.

I don't know why it makes people feel better pointing out he isn't inherently weaker to magic that and Magic effects him the same say mere mortal Batman. It is fact that someone with all of the inherent resistances to damage that Superman has can be hurt by something just as easy as mere mortal Batman makes it relevant however it is spin a weakness.

[Jabare]

While there is no doubt that DC downplays Captain Marvel to focus more on Superman,* how does him having the wisdom of an adult make him more likely to win? Superman's an adult too. Like others have said, they should live on separate Earths and not have a clear answer to who is stronger.

*Whom they don't treat that consistently well to begin with, so how pathetic is that?

Wisdom of Solomon