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  1. #151
    Mighty Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I thought it was ambiguous whether he had sex or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    It was relatively ambiguous. However, the last number of Lobdell Teen Titans imply it was just a kiss between Tim and Cassie.

    I guess Lobdell saw the bad reception to the ambigous situation (influenced by Trigon), so he decide a kiss was enough.


    Now, even Teen Titans of Lobdell seems to be retconned (DCU app say that New52 Superboy doesn't exist anymore, since the timeline of Superman changed). So, I guess we can forgot all about that.
    I was talking about Stephanie Brown in Tynion's Detective Comics.

    Lobdell did clarify that Tim and Cassie didn't go all the way.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by oasis1313 View Post
    All the things that make Dick look good are taken from him and bestowed upon Tim.
    Like what exactly?

  3. #153
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhienphan2808 View Post
    They can retcon Tim's ugliness out but Dick only seem to keep the most ugly and pathetic canon to himself and all the things that made him look good are thrown out. This has been reorcurring since 1980, until the kept ones literally teared the Bat mythos apart and makes no sense anymore in the 2000s and Prime Earth.
    Lucky Dick Grayson has so much beauty that even with the Ugly n pathetic left in he is still the most beautiful in the family. Inside and out.
    To be honest the fact that Dick stayed true to his humble origins, honours his family name and couldn't careless abut playing the Billionaire playboys kid with all the spoils and privileges is beautiful.

    It says a lot about his character and his values. He could have changed his name and become Dick Wayne like someone else did , he could be living off daddy, He could take a job at WE, he could be taking advantage of his status as heir to Gotham's most well known, he could be engaging in petty squabbles with the biological son but he isn't because none of that really matters.

    I think that Dick does see himself as Bruce's kid but also as John Grayson's kid 1st. Bruce understands and respects. He doesn't want to replace John as was made evident in the issue where he adopts Nightwing.

  4. #154
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Sigh...

    Can we not talk about how DC is suppousedly bashing and banning and trashing Dick at the expense of whatever other character is for once? In this topic at least? There are half other threads already dwelling in the same commentary.

    I'll drop a new theme of discussion, related to the topic, if you would like; what do you all think that would be the desired traits for a Robin?
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  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Lucky Dick Grayson has so much beauty that even with the Ugly n pathetic left in he is still the most beautiful in the family. Inside and out.
    To be honest the fact that Dick stayed true to his humble origins, honours his family name and couldn't careless abut playing the Billionaire playboys kid with all the spoils and privileges is beautiful.

    It says a lot about his character and his values. He could have changed his name and become Dick Wayne like someone else did , he could be living off daddy, He could take a job at WE, he could be taking advantage of his status as heir to Gotham's most well known, he could be engaging in petty squabbles with the biological son but he isn't because none of that really matters.

    I think that Dick does see himself as Bruce's kid but also as John Grayson's kid 1st. Bruce understands and respects. He doesn't want to replace John as was made evident in the issue where he adopts Nightwing.
    I think there's a sad note because unlike all other bats or characters Dick's family is just the Batfam. Bruce has Gotham and friends and a history in Gotham, Jason has the other side of Gotham to call home abeit bad, Even Babs has a father that's in the business, Tim has parents (which he lost but then again his life goal is Robin) Damian loses his old family but that's his choice. Dick has...nothing. Gotham is not his., he finds it difficult to stay in a relationship, Bludhaven exploded, his normal life trashed and he also cant decide if he's a "Bat" or a DCU Hero, due to Bruce's control. His identity, the only thing connected him with his lost parents is tripped away, while he took care of all other bat heroes almost like a mom, speaks the Bat language more than everyone else, yet reluctant to be adopted. He's been wondering who he is and what's his place since the 1960s. When he's adopted, he was Batman but Batman is not him either. This is also why i think it's difficult for dc to find a direction for him even now.

    Anyway on that, i can see Bruce putting his foot down and adopt him when he's feeling lost about life, whatever Dick says, and also trying to support Dick and Babs because he hopes that Babs would be Dick's place of solace to come back to. NOT what Devin tried to imply. I think she did ok with Bruce's perspective - respected John Grayson - but she definitely wrote a slash fanfic on Dick's, making him confused what he is TO BRUCE in particular.
    Last edited by nhienphan2808; 11-09-2018 at 04:06 AM.

  6. #156
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Well, that’s not quite right. Dick is suppose to also have the Titans. The Titans in comics just suck right now and are seemingly being culled (just in time to coincide with the new show lol), and befor that it was ripped from Dick so that it’s legacy and it’s remnants can support the other Robins. Dick was one of the first in the Batfam to expand beyond just the Batfam, which in turn lead to creation of the other Robins.

    And really it isn’t difficult to find a direction for him. They can literally strip him of everything, throw him into a completely new element, and turn that into something.
    The real problem is they don’t actually really care to find a direction for him. They can barely be bothered to find creators to even take on his book at this point. They get what they give. They drive off creators, if they don’t pull them first, undercutting whatever semblances of a direction he might have, they pillaged his history and associations so they can pass it on to others, they have no actual interest in supporting the character with direction. Hell, what little ideas someone might have for the character, after using him for fodder, they put in the hands of editors that struggle to put even something basic together for longer then an arc. Leaving us with, for example, a homeless taxi driver under last minute creators who mock themselves for being on the book.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 11-09-2018 at 05:35 AM.

  7. #157
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    My point is not Dick can't find his niche in a creative standpoint. It is Dick thinks things like he's not worthy or too prideful for adoption or he failed his friends and his brothers, and filter everything through a Bruce len, and it's a character trait - which they used to justify his lack of direction. It's his character to want to break off the past but being so defined by it.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Well, that’s not quite right. Dick is suppose to also have the Titans. The Titans in comics just suck right now and are seemingly being culled (just in time to coincide with the new show lol), and befor that it was ripped from Dick so that it’s legacy and it’s remnants can support the other Robins. Dick was one of the first in the Batfam to expand beyond just the Batfam, which in turn lead to creation of the other Robins.

    And really it isn’t difficult to find a direction for him. They can literally strip him of everything, throw him into a completely new element, and turn that into something.
    The real problem is they don’t actually really care to find a direction for him. They can barely be bothered to find creators to even take on his book at this point. They get what they give. They drive off creators, if they don’t pull them first, undercutting whatever semblances of a direction he might have, they pillaged his history and associations so they can pass it on to others, they have no actual interest in supporting the character with direction. Hell, what little ideas someone might have for the character, after using him for fodder, they put in the hands of editors that struggle to put even something basic together for longer then an arc. Leaving us with, for example, a homeless taxi driver under last minute creators who mock themselves for being on the book.
    So frikkin true.

  9. #159
    Amazing Member babybats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    Sigh...

    Can we not talk about how DC is suppousedly bashing and banning and trashing Dick at the expense of whatever other character is for once? In this topic at least? There are half other threads already dwelling in the same commentary.

    I'll drop a new theme of discussion, related to the topic, if you would like; what do you all think that would be the desired traits for a Robin?
    Thank you. I'm somewhat new to this forum and tbh I came here because I was sick of character bashing in other places, so to see it every day in every other thread is so off-putting.

    I think general desired traits for a Robin would be:

    -a close relationship to Batman
    -provide an element of contrast to Batman
    -be a catalyst for change in Batman/be changed by Batman in some way

    I was going to add more, but I realized that everything else is superficial. Robin's main role is as Batman's sidekick, and a good Batman and Robin story has to have all these elements. Other characteristics (personality, motivation, backstory, physical traits and abilities) can vary from person to person because imo the concept of Robin should be fluid to keep it interesting. Carrie and Damian for example, are as different as you can be, but I think what matters is that they both brought something new to the story.

  10. #160
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babybats View Post
    Thank you. I'm somewhat new to this forum and tbh I came here because I was sick of character bashing in other places, so to see it every day in every other thread is so off-putting.

    I think general desired traits for a Robin would be:

    -a close relationship to Batman
    -provide an element of contrast to Batman
    -be a catalyst for change in Batman/be changed by Batman in some way

    I was going to add more, but I realized that everything else is superficial. Robin's main role is as Batman's sidekick, and a good Batman and Robin story has to have all these elements. Other characteristics (personality, motivation, backstory, physical traits and abilities) can vary from person to person because imo the concept of Robin should be fluid to keep it interesting. Carrie and Damian for example, are as different as you can be, but I think what matters is that they both brought something new to the story.
    A thoughtful reply, and I think I can agree with you. But I'm a lover of change, so to speak; it's not a surprise I like the idea of Robin as a role whose more specific traits flow. Giving Batman his contrast (a light, as someone else said somewhere else sometime--ha ha--; or in the case of DickBats, his shadow) is what makes the duo dynamic, and makes them work as a team as far as writing works. The capacity they own to develop, gain something from their experience with Batman, as well as give Batman something else, is also a good point. And for the team to be believable, they sure need to share a close relationship, being as partners, friends or family (because I think they don't need to have a familial bond, being that bond blood related or not).
    Last edited by Zaresh; 11-09-2018 at 10:06 AM.
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  11. #161
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babybats View Post
    Thank you. I'm somewhat new to this forum and tbh I came here because I was sick of character bashing in other places, so to see it every day in every other thread is so off-putting.

    I think general desired traits for a Robin would be:

    -a close relationship to Batman
    -provide an element of contrast to Batman
    -be a catalyst for change in Batman/be changed by Batman in some way

    I was going to add more, but I realized that everything else is superficial. Robin's main role is as Batman's sidekick, and a good Batman and Robin story has to have all these elements. Other characteristics (personality, motivation, backstory, physical traits and abilities) can vary from person to person because imo the concept of Robin should be fluid to keep it interesting. Carrie and Damian for example, are as different as you can be, but I think what matters is that they both brought something new to the story.
    Pretty much agree with this.

    I don't agree that Robin has to be a light. Dick Grayson was the only Robin that needed to be a light and actually was. The Robin who saved Bruce and gave him something to stay alive for, something to care for, something to enrich his life, another purpose aside from Batman [father], gave him light that still lights the way till today.

    I've also ever been a fan of Batman being so unstable or disconnected that his humanity and mission aren't enough to keep him from the dark

    Dick gave him family, love. A young dependant. His Family and his personal ideals that's the light not a sidekick especially since they started dying and he replaces with another just as vulnerable.

  12. #162
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    Batcow pg 1

    Full disclosure: I haven't read all of Tiny Titans, but I do own every issue of her main continuity appearances.

    Warning: many digressions into random animal husbandry facts incoming. I say Damian is my favorite character but... I paid damn good money to study animal science in addition to soils and plants. I love Batcow for the exact same reasons I loathe Poison Ivy.

    Let's be honest here, she's actually Alfred's pet. If you go and die for a year then take off for another year globetrotting, you forfeit your pets. Just saying. Most parents or grandparents tend to refuse to return their children's pets for less.

    Based on her general appearance and the other cows at the slaughterhouse, she's a Hereford.

    Her personality matches up with a Hereford's as well.

    I'm going to keep pushing the Hereford as they are both beef and milk cows, which fits with her canon.

    The Tiny Titans Batcow is most likely a Holstein. In all fairness, I haven't met many Holsteins nor read most of Tiny Titans so I am going to mostly ignore her except for the fact that she once bucked Damian off of her and Robin!Robin was her sidekick.

    As a side note about the two breeds: Herefords average between 12-20 years for a productive lifespan, longer if she has a nice personality and actively engages with humans. The nicer the Hereford is, the more her people like her, the greater the chance that she'll skip breeding years and make it to twenty or older and be euthanized instead of butchered. A Holstein currently averages about six years before she's sent to slaughter. If she's a good producer and has a sweet enough personally to be treated like a pet and get one or two years off from breeding/milk production, she'll make it to ten before being sent to slaughter. Dairies run on tighter margins than the beef industry and can't afford to skip any profit on an animal. In addition, milk production is incredibly hard on the body and does negatively affect lifespans. Holsteins, although wonderful animals and one of the most popular breeds in the world, are experiencing the same problems that many popular dog breeds are where their life spans are shortening due to environmental stress. Amongst breeders, it is a major concern. I use she because male cows are for eating. Even the bulls.

  13. #163
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    Batcow pg 2

    Batcow is the only member of the family to rock the cape and a sun hat at the same time.

    She knows what a Mother Box is.

    There is no explanation as to why she knows that or how to operate it. There's also no explanation as to why the Forever People assume that it's normal for a cow to understand bus schedules, mother boxes, or how to fix and operate a mother box when they don't.

    Admittedly the Forever People (the New Gods that High Father raised) fall into the too dumb to live category. Still. Batcow canonically knew everything they expected her to.

    She also seemed to be deeply irritated by their sheer incompetence.

    Once mooed mockingly at Kalibak to his face.

    Batcow has yet to meet a New God who impresses her, or that she likes.

    Like most cattle, she's actually a ninja. She is prone to suddenly appearing when you least expect it.

    That's a normal cow trait. As is the ability to tell time and the common sense to refuse to go outside if there are bears, wolves, or it's -20F or colder. They also attempt to close the barn door if it's that cold. I'd say I've met interesting cows but apparently if they think they can communicate with a human, cows have a lot of common sense and expect the human to behave as sensibily as they prefer to.

    Alfred the Human speaks cow fluently, and clearly knew how before he met her. Bruce and Damian are fluent in Cow as well. Pre-Flashpoint Cassandra Cain clearly did not, current Cass canon is unclear as to her fluency in Animal Languages.

    She uses manure as a weapon.

    Batcow is essentially to the animal heroes and villains of DC what pre-Flashpoint Barbara Gordon was to the humans.

    I don't know about everyone else, but I desperately want to read the Super Pets stories that were mentioned in the Super Sons Annual.

    In the realm of the most WTF accidental canon, at least hopefully it's accidental canon and the editors and writers didn't think this through: She was a heifer when Damian rescued her, and drawn as a calf/yearling. In one of Bat Inc collections, there's an adorable illustration of her cuddling and licking Bruce. Then in one of the final Inc issues, she's shown producing milk. Now, for the record, although it is possible to induce lactating in male mammals (although aside from one species of bat, it's so rare as to be considered anecdotal at best and generally a sign of something terribly wrong), it's almost impossible to induce lactation in a female who has never been pregnant. Cows get super cuddly and lick people when they're either entering or are in estrus. Given the evidence, it's canon that Bruce bred Batcow while Damian was dead. So what happened to her calf?

  14. #164
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    Batcow pg 3

    ...Legends of the Dark Knight (the digital version) has established that calf brains are one of Bruce's favorite foods. Other writers have dropped throughout his history he likes veal. Until there is evidence otherwise, the facts indicate that after accepting Damian's death being permanent Bruce ate Batcow's baby.

    How does she get on rooftops? More importantly, how does she get down? Cows don't go down stairs.

    She's got to be using elevators along with teleportation devices and Kryptonian pets for transportation.

    She's the biggest urban legend in the DC Universe.

    Or maybe not. Who's going to admit that they were defeated by a cow with a bat on her face and Batman's cape?

    Think about how many criminals, cops, and witnesses just don't talk about her. She has to be one of the most effective crime fighters ever because no one talks about her and just takes a plea deal. There's evidence dropped into random stories that she's out there, the ruminating in the night, stopping crime and saving babies, yet no one talks about her. How many team ups has she had that no one admits to out of fear of being judged crazy? C'mon DC. The fans deserve to know.

    Superman seemed relieved to realize she was real and did actually live the Batcave.

    Considering that aside from King's Batman, Bruce is generally depicted as a troll, there's a very good chance he and his cow are trolling the entire hero and villain community outside of Batman Inc.

    The Super Sons Dynomutt issue indicated that she may have had a team up with Cassandra Cain. Considering that the last time Cass teamed up with a cow it got eaten, we know that Batcow must be an incredible fighter, incredibly crafty, or both. Whatever it is, I want to read that story.

    She and Krypto are beyond being friends and into co-conspirator territory.

    She and Alfred the Human adore each other. Not only does he happily groom her, it appears that in addition to stress baking, he uses her as his comfort animal/service animal. She has been shown laying next to him and providing physical support when he's under duress. In all fairness, all of Damian's animals appear to have been trained as service animals both before and during Damian's death.

  15. #165
    Astonishing Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    BatCow obviously comes from the Forever Cows. Who, like the Endless, make up the fabric of the multiverse.

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