Personalities/Traits of the Robins

[oasis1313]

Now Jason. Since he's born Gothamite he looks at Bruce different than Dick who has no resemblance to Bruce and who's closer to Batman. He's Gothamite and also doesn't give a **** about Batman's code, he's 1. Can teach Bruce plenty ("This boy is more mature than both of us." ) 2. closer to Bruce the man, the man who lost his family and sense of comfort. He brings Bruce that and Bruce actually get along with him better than Dick. While Bruce HAS TO try to be a hero and all macho for Dick and others by not talking to them at all, Jason is the one he can laugh with and say things like "Why do you think there's something cool about me? I dress up as a bat!" to. This 1. made Dick and others took a step back because Jason is THE son, but at the same time 2. Is counteractive to the ideals of Batman, because Bruce allowed himself to be Bruce and nornal and selfish. This is why when Bruce says Jason is the "bad Robin" or "failure" i don't think hes supposed to mean Jason is a bad person, but rather the mantle itself. Jason's existence and Bruce's connection with him is as Bruce, not Batman. Robin helps Batman and his ideals, Jason doesn't ; he shouldnt have been dragged into Batman's missions, he's not Robin, he is his SON, Bruce Wayne's son, and not only Bruce feels that but Jason wanted him only to be his dad too, so he's like ????? when Bruce is too into Batman and this ideal of Robin and neglect him from time to time.

Fast forward to UTRH event. Now Bruce is already lost himself to Batman, his son come back and no longer that hopeful boy he loved and learned from and wanted to help, but killed people. Now Bruce is feeling torn because he cant explain to jason that "Lol son i love you but if i allow myself to be selfish i'm not batman, also you have gone off the deep end and a criminal k bye"

How does Dick fit into this ? Because jason becomes a part of him, a selfish part that isnt batman that he doesnt even dare to let Dick know, he lashed out at Dick when Dick accused him and showed jealousy towards Jason. Post Jason death, Bruce feel not only failure but accused by Dick too, that he failed to be a hero and father. And being Bruce, he hold everything inside and get defensive instead admiting his mistakes and this caused further rift between him and Dick and everyone. And since Dick basically raised Bruce and formed his no kill no gun rule, his presence, or Bruce's IDEA about him is too big for Jason (not in the "he wanted me to dye my hair to be you" creepy Morrison way but in a "Robin is so good you should have seen he help me kick ass because youre right i kinda suck" way) So this feeds into Jason's perception that Dick can do no wrong and Bruce loved Dick and Tim more than him, which is wrong. Dick is Robin to Batman. Jason is THE son. In my mind, giving up to Jason aka himself would betray Dick and everything Batman stands for. In a way, he can't have both Dick and Jason, that's why the loss is too painful for him to even face.

Very interesting analysis. It helps explain why Bruce loves Jason and Tim, but not Dick and Damian.

[nhienphan2808]

Post 2000s comics usually trashed the 80s original story and victim blamed Jason so. Yes i deny that my heroes are sick bastards that abused children.

[Onthetrapeze]

Post 2000s comics usually trashed the 80s original story and victim blamed Jason so. Yes i deny that my heroes are sick bastards that abused children.

Even in pre 2000s comics I can find a lot evidences to back up my opinion. But again, never mind.

[nhienphan2808]

You keep saying that like i'm in denial of something , that i cant see your " evidences", but my problem is your "evidences" are wrong. But ok, believe what you want about Bruce.

[Onthetrapeze]

You keep saying that like i'm in denial of something , that i cant see your " evidences", but my problem is your "evidences" are wrong. But ok, believe what you want about Bruce.

I tried to give you an example but you immediately trashed it, even if I had no idea why it would make you feel “creepy”. You said Batman allowed himself to be Bruce and normal and selfish around Jason but you can't accept Bruce took another kid in because he missed Dick, the orphan who shared his destiny and being his first partner, his first kid?So Bruce being selfish for Jason humanized/enriched his character, but being weak for Dick leaving him only made Bruce a sick bastard?I really can't understand.

[dietrich]

Yes he's lonely but i think saying "Bruce missed the idea of Dick so he formed Jason to be Dick" is creepy. I just understand that as "he missed having a son, a family" In all honestly , Bruce didn't NEED to bring Jason home. Jason the street rat is like any poor kid he helped and praised for bravery in Gotham, and he's lonely so he brings him home. At that time he's didn't even consider Jason being Robin just his son. But then he started to see how he needed Robin and talked too much about Robin in front of eager and full of egge jason. So the idea come from that, not because Jason is like Dick

It was creepy he made him dye his hair.
I haven't read all of Dick and Jason's times as Robin but from what I've read Bruce def saw Dick as a son even when he was just a ward. He loved him, loves him and they are family. Out of all the Robins Dick is the one that seems to have a special relationship with Bruce. Which is understandable since he was the 1st and they have the most time together.

Bruce can be manipulative and cruel. They feud they fight, Bruce lies but those are all things we do even when we care. It's normal.

Bruce is tougher on Dick than Jason because he is the elder, Bruce depends on him and expects more from him. He holds Dick to really high standards because of his position and role in the family. Which is normal. Much like Damian gets away with more because he is the youngest. It's just how things are in most families.

There's plenty of comics and stories where Bruce is just Bruce with Dick.

[oasis1313]

It was creepy he made him dye his hair.
I haven't read all of Dick and Jason's times as Robin but from what I've read Bruce def saw Dick as a son even when he was just a ward. He loved him, loves him and they are family. Out of all the Robins Dick is the one that seems to have a special relationship with Bruce. Which is understandable since he was the 1st and they have the most time together.

Bruce can be manipulative and cruel. They feud they fight, Bruce lies but those are all things we do even when we care. It's normal.

Bruce is tougher on Dick than Jason because he is the elder, Bruce depends on him and expects more from him. He holds Dick to really high standards because of his position and role in the family. Which is normal. Much like Damian gets away with more because he is the youngest. It's just how things are in most families.

There's plenty of comics and stories where Bruce is just Bruce with Dick.

Yeah, being the oldest of the brood is tough, and you're right--MUCH more is expected. I always felt that Bruce always saw more of himself in Jason because of their respective dark sides; that Bruce KNOWS that if he'd been in Jason's shoes--instead of being coddled and taught by Alfred--he would have grown up just like him.

[nhienphan2808]

Jason has always been a unreliable narrator. I dont think he ever know what he's talking about when he talks about Bruce most of the time. If Bruce showed a more special bond with Dick, or picked up a gun when Dick is thought dead, that's because their longer time together and Bruce was not even complete before Dick and Dick was the reason he even threw guns away.

And i dont mean that Bruce is more Bruce with jason and more Batman with Dick as in persona, or Bruce only loves Dick as Batman loves Robin. I don't know why there is this trend of viewing Batman and Bruce as two persons that he can switch on and off depending on boys. They are both Bruce, and parts of Bruce. But because Jason has this certain way of loving you as you are, and they share being Gothamite, he talks about himself more, regconise himself more with jason and he was comfortable with that, whereas with Dick, who is not from Gotham and who clings to a hero more, he places a lot more expectations on himself as well ((because he loves Dick!) which, to Dick, became walls.Dick expects much more from him and that's how batman is made and developed. "Bad Bobin" has it's implications, that Jason doesn't help Batman's cause like a Rpbin, he just wants Bruce Wayne as his father, and he's too good a son of Bruce he can't be Ropin, the kind that Dick and Tim are.

[nhienphan2808]

On that thought, Jason loves you as you are, so how can he love Bruce without knowing **** about Batman (and Robin) ? If I had to choose a direction for him starting from when Flashpoint left off, i would give him a full redemption arc. Let him in some way, study more facts about Bruce and Dick and the hero world (he had ero friends from DCU when he was Robin) before making assuptions, what they have been through, that Dick killed Joker, and Bruce was on the brink of killing for him many times. I believe that would at least change his perceptions about "golden boy Dick" and their relationship and the no kill rule if not agree with Bruce.
Lobdell's Outlaw is nice but not in the long term. Because the Outlaw are the "losers" just like Jason, he tends to dwell in just their world and their feelings being the same as his. And that's his problem of being too emotional he can't see Bruce's point of view. He's impulsive and doesn't like to follow plans as well so in all of Outlaw Bruce had to watch him and everything went to hell in #25 because Bruce can't trust him to not kill.

To make #25 not happen, there has to be another, more absolute way to change his view, completely before he can even make a deal with Bruce like that. he has to know more about Bruce and Dick's pain and struggle through the years. Jason doesn't work when you coddle him and throw things that can "understand his feelings" at him and tell him you'll help him; he would know only those miserable feelings and think you are just bullshit and retreat. Let him come to you and study you with facts and logic and help you because he's just that protective and good, the father Todd level good.

[Onthetrapeze]

But because Jason has this certain way of loving you as you are, and they share being Gothamite, he talks about himself more, regconise himself more with jason and he was comfortable with that, whereas with Dick, who is not from Gotham and who clings to a hero more, he places a lot more expectations on himself as well ((because he loves Dick!) which, to Dick, became walls.Dick expects much more from him and that's how batman is made and developed. "Bad Bobin" has it's implications, that Jason doesn't help Batman's cause like a Rpbin, he just wants Bruce Wayne as his father, and he's too good a son he can't be Ropin, the kind that Dick and Tim are.

If you ever read Dark Victory, you would know Dick bonds with Bruce in a way much closer and more personal than both being born in the same city. In your logic Gorden, Penguin, even Gotham Girl all of them have the same bond with Bruce as Jason does. And I have no idea why you think Dick doesn't love Bruce as he is. Even Bruce himself admitted Dick is the one who knows him the best except Alfred. Dick regards Bruce as his hero, yes, but that's never blind hero worship, otherwise he wouldn't give up the Robin mantle and become his own man Nightwing. Besides, if Jason really loves Bruce as he is, he wouldn't forced him to hold the gun and kill Joker.

[nhienphan2808]

I don't think i understand what you've been trying to prove here. I just want to examine Bruce's feelings for the boys from HIS perspective, which don't work through a len of any logic, but just himself and his values. That logic of "Bruce has to love B as A because B has A's certain attributes" don't work for Bruce. Do you need to agree with his way? Is it fair? No. But your argument to me is numb.

Dick when he isn't adopted says the same things too ("hey i consider you my dad and i grew up with you too? Why you no adopt me but him?" ) and Tim ("Damian HAS to earn my and Bruce's respect by WORKING for Robin bc i worked for it too"). Bruce (Jason) and Dick (Damian) thinks differently.

[Onthetrapeze]

I don't think i understand what you've been trying to prove here. I just want to examine Bruce's feelings for the boys from HIS perspective, which don't work through a len of any logic, but just himself and his values. That logic of "Bruce has to love B as A because B has A's certain attributes" don't work for Bruce. Do you need to agree with his way? Is it fair? No. But your argument to me is numb.

Dick when he isn't adopted says the same things too ("hey i consider you my dad and i grew up with you too? Why you no adopt me but him?" ) and Tim ("Damian HAS to earn my and Bruce's respect by WORKING for Robin bc i worked for it too"). Bruce (Jason) and Dick (Damian) thinks differently.

To be fair, we are both readers who can't stand for Bruce Wayne himself. YOU made YOUR analysis on Bruce which I don't agree with, so I stated my opinion with reasoning. However, I've learned it is a futile effort. Let's just agree to disagree.

[dietrich]

Jason has always been a unreliable narrator. I dont think he ever know what he's talking about when he talks about Bruce most of the time. If Bruce showed a more special bond with Dick, or picked up a gun when Dick is thought dead, that's because their longer time together and Bruce was not even complete before Dick and Dick was the reason he even threw guns away.

And i dont mean that Bruce is more Bruce with jason and more Batman with Dick as in persona, or Bruce only loves Dick as Batman loves Robin. I don't know why there is this trend of viewing Batman and Bruce as two persons that he can switch on and off depending on boys. They are both Bruce, and parts of Bruce. But because Jason has this certain way of loving you as you are, and they share being Gothamite, he talks about himself more, regconise himself more with jason and he was comfortable with that, whereas with Dick, who is not from Gotham and who clings to a hero more, he places a lot more expectations on himself as well ((because he loves Dick!) which, to Dick, became walls.Dick expects much more from him and that's how batman is made and developed. "Bad Bobin" has it's implications, that Jason doesn't help Batman's cause like a Rpbin, he just wants Bruce Wayne as his father, and he's too good a son of Bruce he can't be Ropin, the kind that Dick and Tim are.

Jason isn't unreliable because that's how it feels to him however he is wrong. Bruce loves him Bruce just interacts with hem differently and at times bruce sucks at emotions and making his kids feel valued.

Jason's POV was tainted by his inferiority complex having to follow Dick THE Robin. Robin [Dick was a living legend for Gothamites]

Probable Bruce saw something of himself in Jason just like he did with Dick.

Your words from the highlighted part are just a few of the reasons why Bruce and Dick have a special bond ha will never exist with the others.

Batman wasn't complete. they grew together. He became the hero he is today with Dick at his side fighting back to back.
They spent a good deal of their lives together.
Dick was his 1st.

Jason was a good Robin and that whole last paragraph is just YOUR interpretation of the dynamic canon contradicts you even to this day.

It's okay if you want to put that spin on it but that not what the ink on paper says.

Come to think of it Bruce and Jason are not alike at all so aside from seeing a child alone in the world, being from Gotham and being men i don't they have that much else in common.

You say they have a Darkness that's just every male member of the family { Jason at the time didn't have any darkness} with Bruce having the least darkness. Sure he is emo and messed up but that isn't the type of darkness the Robins have shown.

[dietrich]

On that thought, Jason loves you as you are, so how can he love Bruce without knowing **** about Batman (and Robin) ? If I had to choose a direction for him starting from when Flashpoint left off, i would give him a full redemption arc. Let him in some way, study more facts about Bruce and Dick and the hero world (he had ero friends from DCU when he was Robin) before making assuptions, what they have been through, that Dick killed Joker, and Bruce was on the brink of killing for him many times. I believe that would at least change his perceptions about "golden boy Dick" and their relationship and the no kill rule if not agree with Bruce.
Lobdell's Outlaw is nice but not in the long term. Because the Outlaw are the "losers" just like Jason, he tends to dwell in just their world and their feelings being the same as his. And that's his problem of being too emotional he can't see Bruce's point of view. He's impulsive and doesn't like to follow plans as well so in all of Outlaw Bruce had to watch him and everything went to hell in #25 because Bruce can't trust him to not kill.

To make #25 not happen, there has to be another, more absolute way to change his view, completely before he can even make a deal with Bruce like that. he has to know more about Bruce and Dick's pain and struggle through the years. Jason doesn't work when you coddle him and throw things that can "understand his feelings" at him and tell him you'll help him; he would know only those miserable feelings and think you are just bullshit and retreat. Let him come to you and study you with facts and logic and help you because he's just that protective and good, the father Todd level good.

Bruce should never have made that deal and Jason should never have accepted. It was bad writing and made Jason look like he had weak principals. You either stand for something or you don't.

Bruce's reaction made it look like he was more worried about PR. All-in-All it should never have happened.

I would love Jason to have a better understanding of Dick/Bruce and I wish his relationship with Bruce was more positive but alas this is DC. This is Batman.This is Jason Todd so angst is the order of the day

[Jackalope89]

Bruce should never have made that deal and Jason should never have accepted. It was bad writing and made Jason look like he had weak principals. You either stand for something or you don't.

Bruce's reaction made it look like he was more worried about PR. All-in-All it should never have happened.

I would love Jason to have a better understanding of Dick/Bruce and I wish his relationship with Bruce was more positive but alas this is DC. This is Batman.This is Jason Todd so angst is the order of the day

Oddly, since Flashpoint, Jason probably had the best retcon (post death, at least) where he's more than just a killer. And since then, at least when Bruce is not directly in the picture, he gets along alright with the other Bat members. Dick, Tim, even Damian. Cass, Steph, and Duke, well, he just has not had much interaction with them period. Alfred... Well, he's Alfred.