Personalities/Traits of the Robins

[lemonpeace]

Oddly, since Flashpoint, Jason probably had the best retcon (post death, at least) where he's more than just a killer. And since then, at least when Bruce is not directly in the picture, he gets along alright with the other Bat members. Dick, Tim, even Damian. Cass, Steph, and Duke, well, he just has not had much interaction with them period. Alfred... Well, he's Alfred.

He does have one story with Duke in the DC New Talent Showcase, and they interact when they find out about the Bat/Cat engagement; they appear to be on pretty good terms. They don't have too many interactions due to Duke's lack of appearances, the others there isn't much of an excuse considering their frequency.

[byrd156]

Yeah, being the oldest of the brood is tough, and you're right--MUCH more is expected. I always felt that Bruce always saw more of himself in Jason because of their respective dark sides; that Bruce KNOWS that if he'd been in Jason's shoes--instead of being coddled and taught by Alfred--he would have grown up just like him.

I don't see this really at all. Bruce and Jason's time together was very short, and it's been stated that Jason was partially brought in because he missed Dick. (or at least having a partner or someone he can rely on in the field) Bruce and Jason's relationship wasn't exactly healthy. A damaged man looking for a friend and family in a criminal kid who had a terrible upbringing was already going to be an ugly and hard relationship to build up without Batman & Robin thrown into the mix.

If Bruce never had Alfred he probably would still be a pretty alright guy, nothing like Jason. Jason was a kid living in a very crime ridden area that probably would've taken his life one way or another. The act that Bruce puts on as a Playboy philanthropist would probably be how he would've ended up.

Part of the reason why I find Jason as a tragedy so interesting is because Bruce takes a chance on a kid that most likely was going to get taken by Gotham. Whether he died on the streets, fell into crime or poverty, or became a villain on his own. Jason didn't have any options and pretty much nowhere to go. But he hits a literal jackpot, he gets taken in by the richest man in Gotham and Batman. He now has every chance to excel, to become a better person than he initial would've been. But Jason became the "rebel" Robin instead. (Going purely by Post-Crisis Jason stories from the 80s) He would be reckless, sometimes it would work out and other times he would screw things up because he was still being that kid who tried steals the Batmobile's wheels instead of Robin the Boy Wonder. Jason didn't respect authority and rightly so from his perspective of being a homeless kid on the streets of Gotham. Jason was too young, raw and emotional to be Robin, if he had longer training maybe he could've cooled off and fully taken the entire responsibility of being Robin. But he didn't, he got people killed (possibly killed but he totally killed Felipe) and brutalized others. Batman failed in teaching him properly and thought him using his rage could make up for his lack of skills compared to Dick. But Bruce was wrong and that rage ended up consuming Jason and got him killed in the end.

The tragedy of Bruce trying to save someone who didn't want to or even think he needed saving is very moving and dramatic to me. This rage filled child is brought into a fantastical world but couldn't move past his own ego, his own pain like no-one else's pain matters. That's Jason to me, he is someone who was given great power but took no responsibility.

[nhienphan2808]

I don't see this really at all. Bruce and Jason's time together was very short, and it's been stated that Jason was partially brought in because he missed Dick. (or at least having a partner or someone he can rely on in the field) Bruce and Jason's relationship wasn't exactly healthy. A damaged man looking for a friend and family in a criminal kid who had a terrible upbringing was already going to be an ugly and hard relationship to build up without Batman & Robin thrown into the mix.

If Bruce never had Alfred he probably would still be a pretty alright guy, nothing like Jason. Jason was a kid living in a very crime ridden area that probably would've taken his life one way or another. The act that Bruce puts on as a Playboy philanthropist would probably be how he would've ended up.

I agree. If Bruce thought so that's him being paranoid and dramatic.And Dick saw right through it that's why when Bruce says "I saved jason bc he reminds me of myself" Dick was like "stop bullshiting and try telling the truth"

Even so, yes on

"

That's Jason to me, he is someone who was given great power but took no responsibility

the reason why i say "Bruce giving up to Jason means giving up to himself and betray Batman's code " is Jason like Bruce in that he can dwell on personal, selfish feelings and neglect the bigger picture. jason does always, people doesn't allow Bruce to. One Pre Crisis issue i will always remember is when Dick discussed the TOdd who needed help and Bruce is feeling frustrated (this is after Dick left him for the NTT) so he fucked up by yelling at Dick that "why must I do everything for them always? They dont even need me! Let them take care of their ass! I'm sick of them and sick of YOU!" Ouch. That's channeling selfish Jason there Bruce.

Robin Dick to me has the mindset of someone who has no one, no culture, no friends to lose (except Batman that is) so he can sacrifice himself and do things people logically dont need more readily, so he helped form the early batman mythos that way. Bruce is more contained and fearful. It took will power and time for him to become the Batman we know today, and MORE time and changes to become UTRH Batman who is unbreakably solid in his no kill code and sight of the bigger picture no matter how unrewarding the job can get.

[oasis1313]

Jason should have told Bruce to drop dead—if Jason wants to hang out out in Gotham, there’s no law exiling him.

Bruce should never have made that deal and Jason should never have accepted. It was bad writing and made Jason look like he had weak principals. You either stand for something or you don't.

Bruce's reaction made it look like he was more worried about PR. All-in-All it should never have happened.

I would love Jason to have a better understanding of Dick/Bruce and I wish his relationship with Bruce was more positive but alas this is DC. This is Batman.This is Jason Todd so angst is the order of the day

[Aahz]

Part of the reason why I find Jason as a tragedy so interesting is because Bruce takes a chance on a kid that most likely was going to get taken by Gotham. Whether he died on the streets, fell into crime or poverty, or became a villain on his own. Jason didn't have any options and pretty much nowhere to go. But he hits a literal jackpot, he gets taken in by the richest man in Gotham and Batman. He now has every chance to excel, to become a better person than he initial would've been. But Jason became the "rebel" Robin instead. (Going purely by Post-Crisis Jason stories from the 80s) He would be reckless, sometimes it would work out and other times he would screw things up because he was still being that kid who tried steals the Batmobile's wheels instead of Robin the Boy Wonder. Jason didn't respect authority and rightly so from his perspective of being a homeless kid on the streets of Gotham. Jason was too young, raw and emotional to be Robin, if he had longer training maybe he could've cooled off and fully taken the entire responsibility of being Robin. But he didn't, he got people killed (possibly killed but he totally killed Felipe) and brutalized others. Batman failed in teaching him properly and thought him using his rage could make up for his lack of skills compared to Dick. But Bruce was wrong and that rage ended up consuming Jason and got him killed in the end.

I think that's a very biased view of Jason that isn't really based on the comics.
If you compare him with Dick:
- Dick was also quite reckless and disobedient as Robin (especially in modern stories)
- Dick wasn't really older or had more training than Jason when he started as Robin
- I would to see all the stories where Jason screwed things up
- that Jason had a "lack of skills" and used rage instead is also not the case in the actual comics
- And Jason got nobody killed except Felipe (OK plenty of other people died during his time as Robin especially in 10 Nights of the Beast and the Cult, but that nothing to do with Jason), and Dick never faced a "Felipe" in his time as Robin.

[oasis1313]

If Bruce never had Alfred he probably would still be a pretty alright guy, nothing like Jason. Jason was a kid living in a very crime ridden area that probably would've taken his life one way or another. The act that Bruce puts on as a Playboy philanthropist would probably be how he would've ended up.

I apologize--I didn't mean JUST Alfred. It's also all the "accoutrements" Bruce had that Jason never did. When Bruce's parents were killed, he was suddenly the sole inheritor of one of world's vastest fortunes. But what if Alfred had been in Crime Alley that night ("Come on, Alfred, old chap. Take the night off and go to the cinema with us.") and killed with the Waynes, and Bruce had no guidance? What if Bruce instantly become an orphan child pauper--left with nothing but the clothes on his back? In the former scenario, would he have become the man he became--or a REAL "billionaire playboy" with no interests beyond polo, women, and yachts? Or the second scenario, where he would have been thrust perhaps into a situation like Jason's? Jason was an abandoned child, left to fend for himself on the streets. Neither Bruce or Dick had much in common with someone who grew up UNWANTED and absolutely unloved. They were both orphaned, BUT they had been emotionally secure prior to those tragedies.

About a year ago, I adopted a rescue dog (not the first time, but the most recent). She had been abused, semi-starved, and neglected. Now she is sleek, well-fed, and beloved--BUT she sometimes still has a hard time grasping that overnight she went from being a Cinderella to being a Princess. She's trying to learn not to flinch if someone puts out a hand to her, but it's hard and I practice great patience with her. If a dog has trouble wrapping its head about such an abrupt reversal of fortune--how much MORE would a boy like Jason be shocked at being adopted by one of the richest men in the world? And that rich man is also one of the most complicated, emotionally spastic men in the world, too? How could a reader's heart NOT go out to Jason? Bruce is probably less patient with his Robins than the average person is toward dogs.

[nhienphan2808]

- Dick was also quite reckless and disobedient as Robin (especially in modern stories)
- Dick wasn't really older or had more training than Jason when he started as Robin
I would to see all the stories where Jason screwed things up
- that Jason had a "lack of skills" and used rage instead is also not the case in the actual comics.

Dick was actually the more angry and rebelious Robin if we talk personality, but i don't think it is fair to compare 80s Jason with Modern Dick who is with Batgod and under more control and rules and all around darkness and assholeness. 80s Dick was a world class acrobat. Acrobat # street rat, if not better in fighting skills , then in structured habits and lifestyle and sense of discipline. This is why i refer the thought that Dick had it the best among the brothers because he was with a Batman that just started out and formed his mythos and learned to be a first time parent. Dick was the first and he was free to create the mantle and what it implies. I'd like to think that they both learned. While Dick was reckless and did not follow orders, that's because he had his own ways to do things that still follow the same hero code, and Bruce was more loose with him.

Then came Jason and Bruce failed to make him understand what the mantle that Dick created was about, and Bruce has changed along with Gotham too. Jason has comics where he is better in skills and even attentiveness to Batman than Dick (The Cult, others) but he did not come to do all of that because he's a Robin, but just a good but angry scrappy kid. He's still a street rat has his own principles that doesn't help Batman's cause, he's still willing to kill people. That made him a bad choice for Robin. Not his fault or his personality. Both Bruce and Dick screwed up big time with their fuel at that time. It's just a good story that the Robin mantle changed and any successor would face more hardships with it - It's like Dick as Batman. He's canonically did everything from Gotham to family to his Robin to team better than Bruce, but is he Batman? Arguably nope, even if he understood more than anyone what Batman is. Jason had no friends and no help, on top of living with jealousy and insecurity towards Dick a guy he didn't even know and a dad that's well, Bruce.

[oasis1313]

One moment I did enjoy in King's run was the BatBurger scene where the four young men are sitting in a booth, saying something to the effect of: "Being Robin is all about disobeying Batman."

[byrd156]

I think that's a very biased view of Jason that isn't really based on the comics.
If you compare him with Dick:
- Dick was also quite reckless and disobedient as Robin (especially in modern stories)
- Dick wasn't really older or had more training than Jason when he started as Robin
- I would to see all the stories where Jason screwed things up
- that Jason had a "lack of skills" and used rage instead is also not the case in the actual comics
- And Jason got nobody killed except Felipe (OK plenty of other people died during his time as Robin especially in 10 Nights of the Beast and the Cult, but that nothing to do with Jason), and Dick never faced a "Felipe" in his time as Robin.

Of course it's biased, these are opinions based in storytelling. It's literally all subjective, what you take out of a story or like about it. The only factual things are the actual events that happen. Like Felipe falling to his death, that happened, he died. Now how it happened is left to the reader's imagination because we didn't see. Hell even Bruce suspects that Jason caused his death.

If you just go by how he originally was Jason was a clone of Dick with red hair. Then suddenly he looks just like Dick and constantly got the crap beaten out of him. That's the Pre-Crisis Jason. Hell those pre-Crisis stories carry over continuity wise so I'll count them too.
Jason's Major screws up List since you asked:
Batman #367 Almost gets himself killed and lets Poison Ivy escape.
Batman #368 Almost gets killed by Crazy Quilt, beaten and left for dead in an alleyway.
Batman #373 Almost killed by Scarecrow and disobeys Batman to go find him.
Batman #422 Goes overboard on a criminal, beating him senseless
Batman #424 Kills Felipe
Batman #425 Ignores Bruce and doesn't learn that his actions has consequences. 3 other people end up dying because of Felipe's death.

Also Dick never faced a Felipe? What does that even mean? Dick fought all kinds of horrible people. He trained to be an acrobat his whole life, that's a whole hell of a lot more training than a kid growing up on the streets of Gotham.

[byrd156]

One moment I did enjoy in King's run was the BatBurger scene where the four young men are sitting in a booth, saying something to the effect of: "Being Robin is all about disobeying Batman."

It is a part of it, a teen growing up does it naturally but there's a breaking point. Jason did it constantly, Dick probably had more instances but they were spread out over the course of 30+ years of stories compared to the short time Jason was Robin.

[oasis1313]

It is a part of it, a teen growing up does it naturally but there's a breaking point. Jason did it constantly, Dick probably had more instances but they were spread out over the course of 30+ years of stories compared to the short time Jason was Robin.

Damian started on his teen rebellion early.

[byrd156]

Damian started on his teen rebellion early.

Well he's also blood related to Bruce so that had to help.

[Aahz]

Also Dick never faced a Felipe? What does that even mean? Dick fought all kinds of horrible people.

But he faced never one with diplomatic immunity or one they couldn't send to prison.

Jason's Major screws up List since you asked:
Batman #367 Almost gets himself killed and lets Poison Ivy escape.
Batman #368 Almost gets killed by Crazy Quilt, beaten and left for dead in an alleyway.
Batman #373 Almost killed by Scarecrow and disobeys Batman to go find him.
Batman #422 Goes overboard on a criminal, beating him senseless
Batman #424 Kills Felipe
Batman #425 Ignores Bruce and doesn't learn that his actions has consequences. 3 other people end up dying because of Felipe's death.

Half of these stories are pre crisis (and I can probably find stories where Dick had similar screw ups), when it come to the the post crisis stuff, I don't see why these are "screw ups", no criminal got away, no innocents died, and Bruce was also quite violent during that run (Batman #414 for example).

- The guy he beat up in Batman #422 had nothing to do with the case they were working on, so that didn't really screwed anything up
- In Batman #425 he saved iirc Bruce (or Commissionaire Gordons) live in the end, and while he was the reason for that what happened, he wasn't really involved in the fight were they died, and they could have died like this in basically every fight of Batman against criminals

[oasis1313]

Well he's also blood related to Bruce so that had to help.

Damian gets away with a lot. Maybe he's finally wearing the old man down.

[byrd156]

But he faced never one with diplomatic immunity or one they couldn't send to prison.

Half of these stories are pre crisis (and I can probably find stories where Dick had similar screw ups), when it come to the the post crisis stuff, I don't see why these are "screw ups", no criminal got away, no innocents died, and Bruce was also quite violent during that run (Batman #414 for example).

- The guy he beat up in Batman #422 had nothing to do with the case they were working on, so that didn't really screwed anything up
- In Batman #425 he saved iirc Bruce (or Commissionaire Gordons) live in the end, and while he was the reason for that what happened, he wasn't really involved in the fight were they died, and they could have died like this in basically every fight of Batman against criminals

I'm pretty sure there is one story out there in the thousands of issues that Dick has been in had him deal with a similar scenario before. I also mentioned that there are plenty of stories where Dick messed up, Jason just has a bunch group together over a short period of time. Which was my point. As for not seeing an inexperienced child constantly getting in over his head and almost dying as not a screw-up then, I don't know what to tell you.

I mentioned that some of them were Pre-Crisis in the post since most people I talk to consider those as essential Jason as Robin issues so yeah. How is beating someone unnecessarily not considered a screw-up? Being extremely violent and merciless is okay because the guy is a criminal? As for #425 Jason was the cause, simple as that. It doesn't matter if he was there or involved with the fight, his actions lead to those events transpiring which lead to those men dying. Jason didn't learn that his actions have consequences. Killing leads to more killing, it's a vicious cycle that he chooses to perpetuate.