Personalities/Traits of the Robins

[oasis1313]

While I wouldn't say I'm a fan of Tim, I don't hate him either. Plus, he, like Jason and Dick, has outgrown being Robin and established himself as Red Robin (if he wants to choose a non-family restaurant name in the future, that's fine).

Damian though, has been Robin for the last 10 years or so. And should remain so until he too outgrows it and it passes onto the next (crossing my fingers for Helena Wayne here).

That's kinda my point. Robin has been established as a transitory role--an apprenticeship. Being a Robin means you aren't ready to fly solo. Damian's biggest obstacle to becoming Batman is that he isn't a "man" yet.
He's a child, whether he likes it or not. Since Tim is the best there is at everything there is, why does he still want to be "mentored"? He needs to cut the umbilical cord and quit being a baby.

[Mataza]

why does he still want to be "mentored"?

Because he feels he isnt ready, despite being told he is by Bruce and Dick.
Why would you even ask this? its the most basic thing about the character.

[Arctic Cyclist]

That's kinda my point. Robin has been established as a transitory role--an apprenticeship. Being a Robin means you aren't ready to fly solo. Damian's biggest obstacle to becoming Batman is that he isn't a "man" yet.
He's a child, whether he likes it or not. Since Tim is the best there is at everything there is, why does he still want to be "mentored"? He needs to cut the umbilical cord and quit being a baby.

Well...if Ra's al Ghul thinks you're a sociopath on the way to hell, Amanda Waller thinks you belong on the Suicide Squad, any group of heroes you lead has high turnovers due to mortality rates, Lex Luthor thinks you should work for him, Vandal Savage and other immortals whose causes make Ra's look like a fluffy kitten think you're the right fit for their organization, and multiple versions of your future that you keep encountering think the best way to honor Bruce's legacy is to murder people with the gun that killed Bruce's parents, you might need remedial hero classes.

Damian's ready to cut the cord because he's thirteen, severly neglected, and horrified that his supporting Bruce's actions led to first Metal, and then directly to the breach in the Source Wall that resulted in the destruction of an planet and the near destruction of Earth. Add in the emotional fall out of Alfred's lying to him every check in during Robin SOB, the WAR kids, Alfred and Wintergreen using him to manipulate Slade and Bruce's behavior, his birthday meaning nothing to any non al Ghuls, his frequent complaints throughout Super Sons, Teen Titans, and Nightwing that he almost never sees Bruce and when he does Bruce is angry as opposed to the way he was during Batman and Robin and Snyder's Batman and Inc when Bruce was generally depicted as happy and focused, plus several people informing him that being in Bruce's shadow will and is destroying him, he's going to cut the cord and try to find his own way.

Beyond that, no one doubts Damian's heroic in universe. No one in universe doubts that when the chips are down Damian won't go balls to the walls and do whatever it takes to save people, the world, and Batman. No one doubts that Damian thinks with his heart before his head, in fact, people tend to exploit that because it's Damian's weakness as well as strength. Because of that, he would never do anything that Tim did in Red Robin, World's Finest 2009, or the 2009 Superboy comic. Even when he was new to being Robin and appearing in those books, his having a good heart and a willingness to choose the right path as soon as he understood what that was, despite being an infected boil of a person, was obvious.

To put another way: Damian's solidly on the hero's journey. His entire pre-death, and Robin: SOB both hit every step on that course. He's not afraid to die and will sacrifice his own happiness, safety, and life without hesitation for others without them knowing it. Damian has been shown time and time again to put individuals and animals before his cause and goals. He doesn't have a narrow range of empathy and compassion like Bruce, Tim, or Selina, although, being a child just entering adolescence, he does tend to see things in black and white. But he's got a little Dick Grayson on his shoulder telling him that life is sacred, all life, including villains, and that compassion and concern are the most important traits of a hero. He just tends to make huge, Batman level mistakes like secret jails and kidnapping people when left unsupervised.

Since Tim entered Bruce's life when Bruce was at his worst, reminded Bruce of himself as he wishes he was, he therefore received the worst of Bruce. Tim's Tom Ripley. That's not a good thing. Nor is reading The Talented Mr Ripley before reading Tim's entire run as Robin, or Silence of the Lambs, because Tim would be a brilliantly constructed villain steadily on his path to being an unrepentant murderer and full blown sociopath if he wasn't a DC character.

Hence the need to rein him in, demote him back to Robin, give him full supervision, and figure out how to change that character progression.

[Godlike13]

Tim did not receive the worst of Bruce. Bruce had 2 Robins to learn from with Tim. Bruce was more supportive, better aware, and even gave him better equipment. The only reason Tim’s being demoted is because he has failed to successfully evolve. Not because he received the worst of Bruce, because in actuality he did not. Bruce was far harder on Dick, failed to properly protect Jason, and is grossly neglectful of Damian. Tim had it probably the easiest.

[byrd156]

Tim did not receive the worst of Bruce. Bruce had 2 Robins to learn from with Tim. Bruce was more supportive, better aware, and even gave him better equipment. The only reason Tim’s being demoted is because he has failed to successfully evolve. Not because he received the worst of Bruce, because in actuality he did not. Bruce was far harder on Dick, failed to properly protect Jason, and is grossly neglectful of Damian. Tim had it probably the easiest.

Tim had the best time as Robin, still had living family and bat family to help him out. Had YJ and later TT as well.

[Zaresh]

I will never understand how you people can hate so much a fictional character that isn't even villanious most of the time and has lots of good traits.

I never, ever will.
I was reading the last few pages and it felt.. I don't know, but not really good. Chill guys, and lets center ourselves in things we enjoy. The world has enough real life stuff we cannot help despise.

[Pohzee]

I will never understand how you people can hate so much a fictional character that isn't even villanious most of the time and has lots of good traits.

I never, ever will.

It's like watching football. Or something

[Zaresh]

It's like watching football. Or something

Yep, totally. Between this issue and the one about the fave Robin, I'm just wondering which war I just step in without realising.

(One of the reasons I don't enjoy football anymore)

[dietrich]

Well...if Ra's al Ghul thinks you're a sociopath on the way to hell, Amanda Waller thinks you belong on the Suicide Squad, any group of heroes you lead has high turnovers due to mortality rates, Lex Luthor thinks you should work for him, Vandal Savage and other immortals whose causes make Ra's look like a fluffy kitten think you're the right fit for their organization, and multiple versions of your future that you keep encountering think the best way to honor Bruce's legacy is to murder people with the gun that killed Bruce's parents, you might need remedial hero classes.

Damian's ready to cut the cord because he's thirteen, severly neglected, and horrified that his supporting Bruce's actions led to first Metal, and then directly to the breach in the Source Wall that resulted in the destruction of an planet and the near destruction of Earth. Add in the emotional fall out of Alfred's lying to him every check in during Robin SOB, the WAR kids, Alfred and Wintergreen using him to manipulate Slade and Bruce's behavior, his birthday meaning nothing to any non al Ghuls, his frequent complaints throughout Super Sons, Teen Titans, and Nightwing that he almost never sees Bruce and when he does Bruce is angry as opposed to the way he was during Batman and Robin and Snyder's Batman and Inc when Bruce was generally depicted as happy and focused, plus several people informing him that being in Bruce's shadow will and is destroying him, he's going to cut the cord and try to find his own way.

Beyond that, no one doubts Damian's heroic in universe. No one in universe doubts that when the chips are down Damian won't go balls to the walls and do whatever it takes to save people, the world, and Batman. No one doubts that Damian thinks with his heart before his head, in fact, people tend to exploit that because it's Damian's weakness as well as strength. Because of that, he would never do anything that Tim did in Red Robin, World's Finest 2009, or the 2009 Superboy comic. Even when he was new to being Robin and appearing in those books, his having a good heart and a willingness to choose the right path as soon as he understood what that was, despite being an infected boil of a person, was obvious.

To put another way: Damian's solidly on the hero's journey. His entire pre-death, and Robin: SOB both hit every step on that course. He's not afraid to die and will sacrifice his own happiness, safety, and life without hesitation for others without them knowing it. Damian has been shown time and time again to put individuals and animals before his cause and goals. He doesn't have a narrow range of empathy and compassion like Bruce, Tim, or Selina, although, being a child just entering adolescence, he does tend to see things in black and white. But he's got a little Dick Grayson on his shoulder telling him that life is sacred, all life, including villains, and that compassion and concern are the most important traits of a hero. He just tends to make huge, Batman level mistakes like secret jails and kidnapping people when left unsupervised.

Since Tim entered Bruce's life when Bruce was at his worst, reminded Bruce of himself as he wishes he was, he therefore received the worst of Bruce. Tim's Tom Ripley. That's not a good thing. Nor is reading The Talented Mr Ripley before reading Tim's entire run as Robin, or Silence of the Lambs, because Tim would be a brilliantly constructed villain steadily on his path to being an unrepentant murderer and full blown sociopath if he wasn't a DC character.

Hence the need to rein him in, demote him back to Robin, give him full supervision, and figure out how to change that character progression.

The fact that Damian has a tiny Dick Grayson on his shoulder as his Moral compass is one of the best things to come out Rebirth. Thank You Seeley.

[Restingvoice]

Jason's a shooter, Damian's a stabber.
What's Tim and Dick?
...
Dick is the annoying one. He'll kill you with puns.
Dick's the Punster. (actual quote from the bronze age. Master Punster, to be exact)

[kaimaciel]

Jason's a shooter, Damian's a stabber.
What's Tim and Dick?
...
Dick is the annoying one. He'll kill you with puns.
Dick's the Punster. (actual quote from the bronze age. Master Punster, to be exact)

This totally made my day

[Arctic Cyclist]

Tim did not receive the worst of Bruce. Bruce had 2 Robins to learn from with Tim. Bruce was more supportive, better aware, and even gave him better equipment. The only reason TimÂ’s being demoted is because he has failed to successfully evolve. Not because he received the worst of Bruce, because in actuality he did not. Bruce was far harder on Dick, failed to properly protect Jason, and is grossly neglectful of Damian. Tim had it probably the easiest.

Although all of that is true, it ignores the fact that Bruce took a perfectly good white boy and broke him. Bruce decided that Tim needed to become paranoid and suspicious, so he set up the entire sadistic 16th birthday gift. He kept trying to break up the Tim/Stephanie relationship because she kept him level headed; convincing Tim that it's because she's irresponsible and destined to be a criminal herself and having her feed Tim's paranoia. He encourages Tim to date and use women as a way to spy on and manipulate their families. When Tim appears to beat a man to death (not that it matters because he became the Warlock), instead of the freaking out that Dick, Jason, and Damian receive, Tim's treated as if it was forgivable and not a reason to quit. He also has the very wrong and misguided belief that it's a child's and teenager's job to maintain an adult's mental health and be their moral compass, something Bruce hammers into him, which is almost as severely emotionally abusive as everything the other Robins experienced.

For most of his Robin run, Tim's a good person. It's once he's turned into to mini-Bruce that he's starts becoming a sociopath. With intervention, he can be turned around. However, he needs a better mentor who isn't quite as skilled at destroying people as Bruce is. Black Lighting would be good, except his team is already full. Dick worked for Damian, but that's because Damian pushes back on Dick and makes Dick address why he thinks things are good ideas. Don't forget that Dick's shown having little Damians on his shoulders constantly ranting in his ears too. Tim doesn't have that, nor did he get a version of Talia saying "You're a good person, here, let me hook you up with monks to try and fix your murderous implus... You still want to kill Batman?! WTF?! Okay, fine. I'll let you grow up to be an assassin. Fine. Kill people. You were going to be my one normal person with blood free hands. Whatever. You'll get sick of it, everyone does."

Tim was immediately accepted into the hero community without tests or questions about his motives. It's really quite shocking to read backwards and realize that he's the only one who is never taught or expected to interrogate his motives compared to all the Batgirls, wannabes, various other vigilantes, and Robins. Therein lies the problem, and it does boil down to he was Bruce's life line and fantasy of himself. No one ever sits Tim down and says, "Okay. Why were you doing this? Why are you still doing this? Is this the best choice? Have you thought about other options? Do you understand why what Bruce has taught you is wrong?" Instead he receives the opposite. People tell him he's the only one who can do this, it doesn't matter that what he did was wrong if the end results are desirable.

Remember, Damian keeps encountering people who Bruce's callousness has devastated to the point they become super villains. Jason is one of them. Dick's shown regularly explaining what happened and why, and how if Bruce had done this instead, they'd be non villains. Tim though, has been told he's special and perfect and infallible often enough that he and his fans believe it even as he effs up and heads down the Titans of Tomorrow path. He indirectly caused the deaths of Lonnie's siblings, yet he'll use the same ploy again with no remorse or regret as Red Robin because he's hardened into a Bruce type person.

As I said: it's a really well crafted villains journey to see Tim's trip from a good, decent person into someone capable of getting his dad's murderer out on a technicality in order to manipulate him into a series of choices that will justify Tim's cold blooded murder of him. That's a well done, excellently crafted examination of how joining a cult can twist and break anyone. It's nicely in line with real life situations, and if DC followed it down, would be a bold examination of the adage about the road to hell.

[oasis1313]

Arctic Cyclist, you always make my day!!!!������

[Zaresh]

Since when, and how, Tim was guilt or directed his father to be killed/murdered? Did I miss something in translation or something? Are we reading different comics? I do think Bruce has been everything but good for him, but, er... What are you talking about?

[oasis1313]

I can believe the theory that Tim wanted or still wants to get rid of his parents. Merely being the sole heir of the vast Drake Industries really isn’t as cool as being Batman’s partner and heir to the even vaster Wayne fortune. They’re probably fairly safe as long as they stay in Witless Protection and out of their brilliant perfect son’s way because—after all, they aren’t good enough for him.