Personalities/Traits of the Robins

[BlueElf94]

Damian is a far more interesting ad compelling character than Timmy Wimmy, IMHO. Unfortunately, he isn't protected by DC's guarantee of eternal glory and neither are Dick and Jason. Publisher's Perennial Punching Bag Dick is getting the worst of it, and it grieves me--I don't think it's even getting started yet; it feels like it's going to go on for a long time to come. Nightwing fans are in for an enduring famine this season, and Darlin' Dan is tossing in a side of the plague because he loves us so much.

Tim is personally my favorite Robin: he has an everyman quality that I identify with and none of the other Robins really have it to that extent. Chuck Dixon portrayed him as brainy and intuitive, but I never got the impression that Tim wasn't working his ass off to be Robin. I'll concede that his characterization hasn't been what it should be for a while, but he'll always be my favorite, with Dick being 2nd by the thinnest possible margin.

Now, I'm not making any efforts to persuade you otherwise, but I see you take every chance you can to get in a shot at him on various threads. I get it if he just doesn't do it for you, but I was wondering if you could articulate WHY you vehementy dislike the character so much? You've made vague statements about him being protected and such (which I disagree with, Bendis' interest in him nonwithstanding), but I'm really just curious about what it is you dislike so much.

[dropkickjake]

Tim is personally my favorite Robin: he has an everyman quality that I identify with and none of the other Robins really have it to that extent. Chuck Dixon portrayed him as brainy and intuitive, but I never got the impression that Tim wasn't working his ass off to be Robin. I'll concede that his characterization hasn't been what it should be for a while, but he'll always be my favorite, with Dick being 2nd by the thinnest possible margin.

Now, I'm not making any efforts to persuade you otherwise, but I see you take every chance you can to get in a shot at him on various threads. I get it if he just doesn't do it for you, but I was wondering if you could articulate WHY you vehementy dislike the character so much? You've made vague statements about him being protected and such (which I disagree with, Bendis' interest in him nonwithstanding), but I'm really just curious about what it is you dislike so much.

I think that Tim's every man appeal is what can make him unique and special. At the beginning of the n52, however, that everyman appeal was *gone.* He became this olympic gymnast uber genius planner. Not super interested in that at all.

[oasis1313]

Tim is personally my favorite Robin: he has an everyman quality that I identify with and none of the other Robins really have it to that extent. Chuck Dixon portrayed him as brainy and intuitive, but I never got the impression that Tim wasn't working his ass off to be Robin. I'll concede that his characterization hasn't been what it should be for a while, but he'll always be my favorite, with Dick being 2nd by the thinnest possible margin.

Now, I'm not making any efforts to persuade you otherwise, but I see you take every chance you can to get in a shot at him on various threads. I get it if he just doesn't do it for you, but I was wondering if you could articulate WHY you vehementy dislike the character so much? You've made vague statements about him being protected and such (which I disagree with, Bendis' interest in him nonwithstanding), but I'm really just curious about what it is you dislike so much.

I think dropkickjake kindly answered your question for me. I liked Tim a great deal when he was first introduced because of that "everyman" quality. Then when all this "super-genius", "Olympic gymnast" , and Bruce's constant genuflection to him "("Your movements are so VIBRANT in my mind!" CREEPY), combined with Jason, Dick, and Damian being made to look unintelligent, inferior, and unwanted in comparison--that tore it for me. Also, DC has stated that Tim was not created to be killed off and he WON'T be killed off. It's all DC's fault (not Tim's, really) that the character has been destroyed and replaced with this entitled ultra-genius computer brain monstrosity. It's like the girl at school whose parents bought the Homecoming Queen title for her and everyone in the class knows it. I probably wouldn't care that much if Dick, Jason, and Damian weren't being denigrated for Tim's promotion--it's all up to lousy writing and frank laziness. If Tim "needs to be taken off the table", he's abducted by a supervillain who sees Tim's limitless intelligence as a threat to world domination; if Dick "needs to be taken off the table", he is transformed into a homeless, dirty alcoholic with no redeeming qualities.

[BlueElf94]

I think dropkickjake kindly answered your question for me. I liked Tim a great deal when he was first introduced because of that "everyman" quality. Then when all this "super-genius", "Olympic gymnast" , and Bruce's constant genuflection to him "("Your movements are so VIBRANT in my mind!" CREEPY), combined with Jason, Dick, and Damian being made to look unintelligent, inferior, and unwanted in comparison--that tore it for me. Also, DC has stated that Tim was not created to be killed off and he WON'T be killed off. It's all DC's fault (not Tim's, really) that the character has been destroyed and replaced with this entitled ultra-genius computer brain monstrosity. It's like the girl at school whose parents bought the Homecoming Queen title for her and everyone in the class knows it. I probably wouldn't care that much if Dick, Jason, and Damian weren't being denigrated for Tim's promotion--it's all up to lousy writing and frank laziness. If Tim "needs to be taken off the table", he's abducted by a supervillain who sees Tim's limitless intelligence as a threat to world domination; if Dick "needs to be taken off the table", he is transformed into a homeless, dirty alcoholic with no redeeming qualities. I'm very protective of Dick, Jason, and Damian because DC always puts Tim first, even above Batman's own biological son. If the company could boost ALL of them without defaulting to editorial favoritism, I wouldn't care.

I see alot of what you're saying about Tim in the current depiction of Barbara Gordon, so I can kind of understand where you're coming from.

I think fans and creators alike get too hung up on the attributes and capabilities of the Robins, instead of what makes them different as people

[Aahz]

I think dropkickjake kindly answered your question for me. I liked Tim a great deal when he was first introduced because of that "everyman" quality. Then when all this "super-genius", "Olympic gymnast" , and Bruce's constant genuflection to him "("Your movements are so VIBRANT in my mind!" CREEPY), combined with Jason, Dick, and Damian being made to look unintelligent, inferior, and unwanted in comparison--that tore it for me. Also, DC has stated that Tim was not created to be killed off and he WON'T be killed off. It's all DC's fault (not Tim's, really) that the character has been destroyed and replaced with this entitled ultra-genius computer brain monstrosity. It's like the girl at school whose parents bought the Homecoming Queen title for her and everyone in the class knows it. I probably wouldn't care that much if Dick, Jason, and Damian weren't being denigrated for Tim's promotion--it's all up to lousy writing and frank laziness. If Tim "needs to be taken off the table", he's abducted by a supervillain who sees Tim's limitless intelligence as a threat to world domination; if Dick "needs to be taken off the table", he is transformed into a homeless, dirty alcoholic with no redeeming qualities. I'm very protective of Dick, Jason, and Damian because DC always puts Tim first, even above Batman's own biological son. If the company could boost ALL of them without defaulting to editorial favoritism, I wouldn't care.

I can't really remember any story where made Dick and Damian look inferior to Tim (appart from maybe the Titans of Tomorrow thing, but that was a future version of Tim).

You seem to mostly complain about stuff they say about him in his own book (or in TEC, were the others were also not around), but that's not really different from how Dick and Damian are presented in their books. I mean Damian has for example stated stuff like that he could have had a PhD at the age of seven, and they had him even one shot Tim and Jason in Robin War. Or in Dicks case you had something similar in Batman Eternal were Mother easily took down the other Robins and he was the only one who could fight her.

The only Robin that seems imo hardly ever get an opportunity to shine when he is around the others and who is never really said to be the best at something is Jason.

[oasis1313]

I can't really remember any story where made Dick and Damian look inferior to Tim (appart from maybe the Titans of Tomorrow thing, but that was a future version of Tim).

You seem to mostly complain about stuff they say about him in his own book (or in TEC, were the others were also not around), but that's not really different from how Dick and Damian are presented in their books. I mean Damian has for example stated stuff like that he could have had a PhD at the age of seven, and they had him even one shot Tim and Jason in Robin War. Or in Dicks case you had something similar in Batman Eternal were Mother easily took down the other Robins and he was the only one who could fight her.

The only Robin that seems imo hardly ever get an opportunity to shine when he is around the others and who is never really said to be the best at something is Jason.

Damian does a lot of boasting because he is extremely insecure, and a lot of that bragging can be taken with a grain of salt. If he was as smart as he claims he is, he wouldn't have to be rescued so often. Damian is a child and I don't give the same credence to a child as I do to a mature adult.

You might not see these odious comparisons in a single issue of one book but I look at them as long-term trends in the broad picture of the entire Family. For ONE example, the entire basis of "War Games" was Bruce gorking out because Tim was grounded. It's a big responsibility for a 16 year-old kid to keep intact the sanity of a grown, accomplished man like Bruce Wayne. That series of books featured a wonderful new character--Steph-- cruelly tortured and murdered because Bruce couldn't live without an umbilical cord being directly attached to Tim. It's only because Steph and Damian were creative enough and popular enough to win enough hearts that they were brought back. Dick and Jason were both VERY smart BEFORE Tim came along--now they are down-graded in intelligence to make Tim look brighter in comparison. Because of this, Tim is NOT the character he was introduced to be, the "everyman" character I liked. I don't like what he has become. If DC can't make him succeed without heavy-handed bias toward him, then Tim is a failure.

[Aahz]

Damian does a lot of boasting because he is extremely insecure, and a lot of that bragging can be taken with a grain of salt. If he was as smart as he claims he is, he wouldn't have to be rescued so often. Damian is a child and I don't give the same credence to a child as I do to a mature adult.

For the most part he is shown to be as competent as he claims, and I don't think that gets rescued very often.

For ONE example, the entire basis of "War Games" was Bruce gorking out because Tim was grounded. It's a big responsibility for a 16 year-old kid to keep intact the sanity of a grown, accomplished man like Bruce Wayne.

"War Games" is crap, and I don't remember Batman acting less sane than usual in that story.

Dick and Jason were both VERY smart BEFORE Tim came along--now they are down-graded in intelligence to make Tim look brighter in comparison.

At least I Dicks case thats imo more due to Barbara, and he is imo in the current (or at least the pre "Ric") solo stories the same level of intelligence he had in Dixons run.

[BlueElf94]

Damian does a lot of boasting because he is extremely insecure, and a lot of that bragging can be taken with a grain of salt. If he was as smart as he claims he is, he wouldn't have to be rescued so often. Damian is a child and I don't give the same credence to a child as I do to a mature adult.

You might not see these odious comparisons in a single issue of one book but I look at them as long-term trends in the broad picture of the entire Family. For ONE example, the entire basis of "War Games" was Bruce gorking out because Tim was grounded. It's a big responsibility for a 16 year-old kid to keep intact the sanity of a grown, accomplished man like Bruce Wayne. That series of books featured a wonderful new character--Steph-- cruelly tortured and murdered because Bruce couldn't live without an umbilical cord being directly attached to Tim. It's only because Steph and Damian were creative enough and popular enough to win enough hearts that they were brought back. Dick and Jason were both VERY smart BEFORE Tim came along--now they are down-graded in intelligence to make Tim look brighter in comparison. Because of this, Tim is NOT the character he was introduced to be, the "everyman" character I liked. I don't like what he has become. If DC can't make him succeed without heavy-handed bias toward him, then Tim is a failure.

I've seen little indication of this heavy-handed bias you've mentioned, New 52 made Tim the minor league Robin at best. But for sake of discussion, WHEN did it all go bad for Tim, in your opinion?

[dropkickjake]

I can't really remember any story where made Dick and Damian look inferior to Tim (appart from maybe the Titans of Tomorrow thing, but that was a future version of Tim).

I do think it is more about trends than about a single issue. Tim was being hyped (in his own book, yes) as this olympic level athlete and near batman-level planner at the same time that Dick was being nerfed quite a bit in his own book. N52 Nightwing had never led the titans, was no where near the competency of the character that we had just read as batman, and his tenure as Robin (the basis for his competence) had been dramatically shortened. Let alone the fact that some of his closest relationships were going to Jason at the time. Even in his own book, Dick wasn't really written as a particularly competent individual until Grayson.

So the differing trajectories probably left a pretty sour taste in some peoples mouth. For me, Tim should be the relatable and normal one, albeit perhaps a better detective than his brothers. The gymnastic thing though... that was a poor move. You don't make Tim a better character by making him more like Dick.

[oasis1313]

I do think it is more about trends than about a single issue. Tim was being hyped (in his own book, yes) as this olympic level athlete and near batman-level planner at the same time that Dick was being nerfed quite a bit in his own book. N52 Nightwing had never led the titans, was no where near the competency of the character that we had just read as batman, and his tenure as Robin (the basis for his competence) had been dramatically shortened. Let alone the fact that some of his closest relationships were going to Jason at the time. Even in his own book, Dick wasn't really written as a particularly competent individual until Grayson.

So the differing trajectories probably left a pretty sour taste in some peoples mouth. For me, Tim should be the relatable and normal one, albeit perhaps a better detective than his brothers. The gymnastic thing though... that was a poor move. You don't make Tim a better character by making him more like Dick.

If I were in charge, I would make Tim like he was when he was introduced--a nice enough kid with a can-do attitude, an altruistic side who genuinely wants to HELP, but has a whole lot to learn. I'd make him a bit of a nerd--smart, yeah--but not someone who eclipses Lex Luthor and Ozymandias with his genius. I'd make him tongue-tied and awkward with girls; he might be a candidate to be that long-awaited gay Robin. I'd have both his parents, maybe siblings (there would no "TIM WAYNE!!!! TIM WAYNE!!!!), and I wouldn't have him living in the Manor--rather, in a nice middle-class neighborhood where he's looking around at the white picket fences during the daytime and wondering why he's running around in alleyways at night. He'd be awe of fearless daredevils like Dick and Jason, a little creeped out by Damian--but well aware he'll never be "like them"--and doesn't want to be. He wants to be himself; he's interested in detective work, maybe get a job after school in a police crime lab. Most of all, he wants to be his own man and use all Batman has taught him to be a good Acolyte of the Bat to do good in the world.

[Aahz]

If I were in charge, I would make Tim like he was when he was introduced--a nice enough kid with a can-do attitude, an altruistic side who genuinely wants to HELP, but has a whole lot to learn.

Putting him back on that level (without rebooting the universe back to the point were he started as Robin) would be odd, since we actually saw Tim gain alot of those skills (opposed to most other Batfamily members).

Then when all this "super-genius", "Olympic gymnast" , and Bruce's constant genuflection to him

I also don't get why people allways come back to this "Olympic gymnast" thing, outside of his new 52 this was iirc never mentioned again and (opposed to Dick) his Gymnastic skills were never really showcased to be somewhat exceptional (at least in comparison to the other Batfamily members), I think that bit was mostly added to justify his skillevels to be at the pre flashpoint level despite his time as Robin being massively reduced.

[Aahz]

For ONE example, the entire basis of "War Games" was Bruce gorking out because Tim was grounded. It's a big responsibility for a 16 year-old kid to keep intact the sanity of a grown, accomplished man like Bruce Wayne.

What i also forgot to mention is that Bruce working alone without Tim as side kick for extended amount of time was nothing unusual pre War Games.

In the Knightfall Saga Bruce travelled the world to rescue Tims dad while Tim stayed behind in Gotham, during No Mans Land Batman stayed in Gotham while Tim stayed for most of the time out side of it, after No Mans Land Tim was at a Boarding School and for some reason pissed at Bruce, and during Fugative Batman worked alone without any contact with the rest of the Bat-Family.

[Jared S]

Putting him back on that level (without rebooting the universe back to the point were he started as Robin) would be odd, since we actually saw Tim gain alot of those skills (opposed to most other Batfamily members).

I also don't get why people allways come back to this "Olympic gymnast" thing, outside of his new 52 this was iirc never mentioned again and (opposed to Dick) his Gymnastic skills were never really showcased to be somewhat exceptional (at least in comparison to the other Batfamily members), I think that bit was mostly added to justify his skillevels to be at the pre flashpoint level despite his time as Robin being massively reduced.

I agree. I thought it obvious that everyone in the Batfamily was an Olympic level gymnast, at minimum, so that description doesn't both me. (For that matter, all of them are better than Olympic athletes; have you ever seen an Olympian pull off half the stunts any Robin can do effortlessly?) Dick, Cassandra, Barbara, Damian and basically everyone, are all still above Tim when it comes to gymnastics. At least, Tom King ranked him dead last in hand-to-hand combat.

[Aahz]

I thought it obvious that everyone in the Batfamily was an Olympic level gymnast, at minimum, so that description doesn't both me.

Exactly, and the only Batfamily members were they really highlight their acrobatics are Dick and sometimes Selina.
And it was btw. allready in Tims original origin story said that his a very good acrobat.

Dick, Cassandra, Barbara, Damian and basically everyone, are all still above Tim when it comes to gymnastics.

Don't know, appart from the Dick and maybe Selina and Cass, the others never really shown to do any gymnastics that goes beyond the stuff Tim does.

At least, Tom King ranked him dead last in hand-to-hand combat.

That rating was imo very questionable.

[Godlike13]

And its obvious that everyone in the Batfamily is a detective, but anytime Dick or Jason have a thought its how dare they. Tim's the detective. Thats what they get for playing up general traits they all share by default.