When did the Superman Batman rivalry start?

[Mistah K88]

I was watching one of those Lego DC movies with my nephew and noticed that Batman having a HARD hate-on for Superman (making "alien" comments every 5 minutes under his breath). Granted it was played for laughs as it was REALLY one sided with Supes not even paying attention to Bats, but as a fan of the characters, it rubbed me the wrong way.

Looking back after that I've noticed that most, if not all recent adaptions with both Batman and Superman in them have had some sort of rivalry, whether it be Injustice, the DCEU, DCAU, etc. It has gotten to the the point where Batman could give Lex Luthor pointers about Superman. It has even spilled over into the fan bases of the respective characters. I'm wondering when it started? Was it Frank Miller? Did it happen before TDKR? I know that in most Marvel properties the superheroes often fought each other in their first meetings, but I think with DC it was more "chummy". I suppose the heroes being more friendly toward each other was due to the differing time periods/ages that the most popular characters met.

When did this rivalry start? Both between the characters and fans?

[Netherman14]

In regards to the rivalry between Superman and Batman, I personally believe that it started with 1986's Batman: The Dark Knight Returns. written by the above mentioned Frank Miller.

[Last Son of Krypton]

I think it started in 1983 when Batman quitted the JL and founded the Outsiders, but it was Miller's TDK to really turn the characters into "rivals."

[superduperman]

The generally accepted beginning is Dark Knight Returns. But since that was supposed to be an Elseworld, it didn't make a lot of sense to incorporate that into the mainstream continuity. Especially since their rivalry was supposed to be the result of something that happened in their past.

[Kuwagaton]

I guess you can call the first conflict Man of Steel #3, but that weird sort of prejudice is sporadic. It's not like Bruce to be xenophobic, moreso acknowledge the dangerous connection between Clark's disposition and capabilities.

[sunofdarkchild]

The idea that they start out not exactly liking/trusting each other and gradually become best buds is appealing to me.

Miller's idea that two people with such diametrically opposed viewpoints wouldn't get along all that well isn't so unfounded, but it's a starting point, not their whole relationship.

In post-crisis and the DCAU when they start out Superman disapproves of Batman's methods. In the DCAU Batman questions Superman's judgement. In both universes they learn to work together, trust each other, and consider each other among their closest friends. I really liked that development.

This idea of Batman outright hating Superman is a weird one. It's understandable in Injustice when Superman takes over the world, but outside of that it doesn't make sense. In BvS it really was handled poorly.

[Batknight]

The generally accepted beginning is Dark Knight Returns. But since that was supposed to be an Elseworld, it didn't make a lot of sense to incorporate that into the mainstream continuity. Especially since their rivalry was supposed to be the result of something that happened in their past.

Even the idea that Batman and Superman hate each other in the Dark Knight Returns I think is greatly over-exaggerated. They don't hate each other, they're good, old friends who have grown slightly bitter with each other due to a political disagreement about the state of the horrible, dystopian world they live in. Basically the only way Clark can remain a hero and stay on earth is to follow the government's orders. If he doesn't, then he has to retire or go into exile and can no longer protect the world, or he has to become a outlaw, vigilante like Bruce has and be hunted by the government for breaking the law. He chooses to obey the law and saves billions of lives from a nuclear apocalypse. Bruce disagrees with this approach, and thinks Clark is more than powerful enough to just do whatever he wants and the government has no power to tell him what to do. But Clark doesn't want to come into conflict with the government when the whole world is constantly on the edge of armageddon and he's the only one capable of stopping it due to being one of the very few superheroes active on the planet. So their rivalry here is not personal, it is purely due to the state of the world they live in. Under normal circumstances they would not be fighting or dislike each other at all. There are many times throughout the story Clark shows he still deeply cares about Bruce. They causally hang out together in Bruce's backyard. Clark isn't trying to kill or hurt Bruce at all during their fight and is holding back A LOT. He freaks out when he thinks Bruce is dead and is having a heart attack during their fight. He also let's the world think Bruce is dead at the end when he finds out he faked his death so he can continue his activities in secret. The world of the DKR is incredibly messed up and Bruce and Clark reflect that. But in regular continuity, this of course was never how they were always meant to be portrayed and they are only like this due to the circumstances of this story..

[The World]

Post-Crisis Supes was far too soft and gentle to really deal with Post-Crisis Bruce. Imagine if Post-Crisis Bruce had tried half the stuff he did with Post-Crisis Superman with Kal-L. He would have gotten beat into a pulp and that would have been the end of the "rivalry". Post-Crisis Superman allowed it rather than putting his foot down. If Bruce wants to behave like a bully then Clark needs to go back to Golden Age style thinking, punch the bully in the face don't fear them.

There onus is on Superman to put Bruce in his place and end this silly dispute that started in the Post-Crisis era.

[Buried Alien]

I'm a child of the Bronze Age, and I *never* thought of Superman and Batman being rivals until THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS.

Superman and Captain Marvel (Shazam), on the other hand...

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[manofsteel1979]

While it didn't become official until MOS (1986)#3 , it was foreshadowed in the final issue of the original Worlds Finest series. They have a falling out in that issue and it is inferred their previous chummy relationship would never be the same again.

[Vordan]

After CoIE is when it really started getting pushed. Miller had Batman’s “ending” be him and Supes beating each other up in Crime Alley. Miller was also either the first or the most well-known advocate that these two guys don’t like each other, and Byrne carries that interpretation over into MoS which is Superman’s “beginning”. So in the minds of the public they started out not liking each other and ended not liking each other. Hell for a very long time Supes was barely friends with Bats Post-Crisis, it was really Loeb’s Superman/Batman run that really restores that friendship.

[Kuwagaton]

Post-Crisis Supes was far too soft and gentle to really deal with Post-Crisis Bruce. Imagine if Post-Crisis Bruce had tried half the stuff he did with Post-Crisis Superman with Kal-L. He would have gotten beat into a pulp and that would have been the end of the "rivalry". Post-Crisis Superman allowed it rather than putting his foot down. If Bruce wants to behave like a bully then Clark needs to go back to Golden Age style thinking, punch the bully in the face don't fear them.

There onus is on Superman to put Bruce in his place and end this silly dispute that started in the Post-Crisis era.

However disagreeable someone may be, Superman should have an invincible temperament. I think if you put down 12 Supermen, no matter how rambunctious they start, they end up confident enough to not sink to aggression with those who should be allies. Definitely not just beating up on weaker guys. If that makes him a pushover, that stumps me. I mean this is how that first case ends:



And it builds from there.



It was cool how Guy Gardner, famous for butting heads with both in other stories, was used to show how they relate to one another:

[phantom1592]

Any writer who writes about Batman not trusting Superman... or fearing him... or not believing his 'boy scout' mentality, is simply writing Batman WRONG.

Batman is a detective. He's heavily trained in observation, psychology, delving into the minds and mentality of 'unusual' people' including any involuntary motor tics... Superman (and pretty much anyone else he runs across) is an open book to him. Which is fair, since Superman isn't hiding anything from Batman. When he says he's here to do good and there are lines that he won't cross... Batman is good enough at what he does to believe it utterly. Superman as the investigative reporter isn't too shabby either.

Whatever their 'public personas' may project... they each know the truth and are buddies

[manofsteel1979]

While I prefer that eventually Supes and Bats are chums, I do think it makes since that they start out at least a little antagonistic, but quickly realize they are on the same side and become work friends and eventually buddies. One of the few things I liked about the New 52. That was the trajectory of the Post Crisis era too, but it took until the early 2000's .

[The World]

However disagreeable someone may be, Superman should have an invincible temperament. I think if you put down 12 Supermen, no matter how rambunctious they start, they end up confident enough to not sink to aggression with those who should be allies. Definitely not just beating up on weaker guys. If that makes him a pushover, that stumps me. I mean this is how that first case ends:



And it builds from there.



It was cool how Guy Gardner, famous for butting heads with both in other stories, was used to show how they relate to one another:

I just don't see Superman as this guy that capitulates to bad attitudes and is constantly trying to appease people. What put the guy on the map is the fact that if you pushed him or anyone that was defenseless he pushed back 10 times as hard. Plus I think it just sends the wrong message to kids to simply coddle people that try and push you around.