View Poll Results: Would you buy a New 52 Superman book if DC published it?

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  • Yes.

    22 30.99%
  • No.

    31 43.66%
  • Depends on the circumstances (explain in post)

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  1. #61
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    I voted " depends on the circumstances". If its got a decent creative team and if it's in addition too but not replacing the current version, then why not?

    If it's ever in place of the current version, a hard emphatic no. In spite of the hoops and complications it took to get here, the current version is the closest we've ever gotten to a Superman that's the sum total of 80 years of incarnations. If that was all tossed away to bring a version who had potential but was squandered, then...again no way. I would probably leave Superman comics behind and never look back.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
    SUPERMAN is the greatest fictional character ever created.

  2. #62
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I'm sorry but the idea that it would be too confusing is laughable. What is confusing about different incarnations of characters, which has been going on in comics for time immemorial? No one would be confused. People eventually rolled with Superman Reborn, which is many times more convoluted than the idea of different versions could ever be.

    In any case, speaking of WW I'd love if that were to eventually return with it in such a hypothetical situation. It wasn't all I loved about the New 52 Superman though so if it didn't come back with it, okay. It worked before so it could easily work again, but say they wanted to keep things "in house", New 52 Clark also had an incredible dynamic with Lana that I loved.


    Honestly, Berganza would be the only thing to turn me off in that situation. Lobdell did exactly two stupid things with Superman in his run, which were bad but I'd give him the benefit of the doubt of correcting it. And hey, JRJR's art has a rather...rustic feel to it in the first place. I might not notice a broken hand, lol. That's not meant to be an insult, his art is an acquired taste and I kinda started to acquire it. But it does have a rough feel to me.
    You are far more forgiving than i am. I can't forgive Lobdell for what he did with Lois and Clark. To me that is just egregious, especially how he made Clark look.. Looking back at old post of mine i was positive about Lobdell until that point. It literally retroactively ruined his entire run for me. It seems petty but its just how i feel.

    What was the other stupid thing he did? I just seem to remember that one. Refresh my memory.

    I actually agree about Jr Jr. I loved his spiderman stuff and always will. I also sorta dug his first part on Superman and was happy when he tries to change the Suit to something more classic even though it lasted precisely three issues. His art got worse and to be honest i was so. Turned off by Truth that I probably judged his work more harshly than i should have.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
    SUPERMAN is the greatest fictional character ever created.

  3. #63
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Maybe it didn't bother others as much as it did me but the other thing was him having Clark rail into Kara about nearly outing his identity when she approached in him in his apartment in full costume with a guest (I think it was Lois?). When she was brand new to Earth and his life and had absolutely NO clue about the dual identity.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 10-28-2018 at 12:39 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  4. #64
    Extraordinary Member hellacre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    If he's with Wonder Woman (as I found the dynamic between the two intriguing) I would, otherwise no.
    Same here. It's ignoring much of New 52 development and Hx if they ignored him and Diana and they cemented their relationship. Plus the idea of him with an outed ID...hell yeah. I'd love to read a Superman not having to deal with the usual cliches and doing something very different in terms of how he deals with the world and his identity. If DC wants to rethread the same old same old...they have canon. I have no desire to read the same thing over and over. There is no point. Those who want him with Lana, then build him with Lana in another version. Lana is with Steel in the new 52 and that is another relationship I liked.

    They just need to give the new 52 it's own book like Earth 2.

  5. #65
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    nvm .
    "That was some good ass Tekken" - Tasty Steve

  6. #66
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Maybe it didn't bother others as much as it did me but the other thing was him having Clark rail into Kara about nearly outing his identity when she approached in him in his apartment in full costume with a guest (I think it was Lois?). When she was brand new to Earth and his life and had absolutely NO clue about the dual identity.
    I forgot that. Yeah that was bad , but to be fair the whole Kara and Clark as almost frenemies or antagonisitic toward each other wasn't Lobdell's idea. It was Matt Idelson's idea that set the tone of things. However the lapse in continuity was on Lobdell there.
    Last edited by manofsteel1979; 10-28-2018 at 12:51 PM.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
    SUPERMAN is the greatest fictional character ever created.

  7. #67
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Good point, yeah. As far as the Lois thing, I understand why it was so hated, and I didn't like it either, but I don't think there was any ill intent at least in regards to sabotaging their dynamic. What I think he was doing was trying to re-establish the "Lois has her suspicions, is close to finding out but doesn't" dance. He just went about it in a completely wrong-headed way at that time by having Clark question his own intentions in regards to keeping his secret that way. That part was too dark for Superman.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    Korath, I could never connect with the great things you are ascribing to the SM/WW romance because ultimately the message seems to be one that bends towards isolation rather than integration. Instead of developing positive relationships that demonstrate a healthy and positive connection with people who are so different from them, Superman and Wonder Woman choose only to rely on each other. Their canon relationships with Steve and Lois, on the other hand, demand storytelling that celebrates empathy and acceptance. To me, that's not just the better story, it's the better story for Superman, Wonder Woman, and superheroes in general.
    Agree completely. And empathy and seeing beauty, power and acceptance in those who are different from us is a beautiful message just more fitting of Superman and Wonder Woman. It’s truly beautiful that they both ultimately believe that a human is the love of their life. It speaks to their humility and their ability to see beyond the obvious and physical. It shows two people who see greatness where other people might overlook it as opposed to obvious glory. Lois not being the “obvious” choice for Superman is exactly why she ::is::. Because Clark is always going to choose the person that the public might think wasn’t good enough. The public thinking Superman belongs with a goddess is exactly why that’s not how he would feel. SuperMAN is literal. He’s going to defy expectations.

    A Superman who truly believes that a “mere human” isn’t on his level and can’t be loved in the same way as a goddess with powers is no hero at all. A Superman who truly views love and attraction on such shallow terms is not Superman.

    Lois and Clark has lasted 80 years for the same reason a lot of love stories stand the test of time: because people from different circumstances different in privilege and power finding common connection through love is a universal theme. There’s a reason the majority of fairytales are structured around Cinderella type stories. There’s a reason why people don’t root for Prince William or Harry to marry rich Princesses. Universal themes of romance do not support the idea that we should root for the two most privileged people in the world to only be good enough for each other. Historically, these kinds of stories aren’t popular because the message is CRAPPY and elitist and classist.

    Lois isn’t going anywhere and those who don’t like her and hope she gets replaced should likely find a story you like better. But that doesn’t mean she, as the partner that Siegel created from day one, is the problem. She’s not.
    Last edited by Nelliebly; 10-28-2018 at 01:02 PM.

  9. #69
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    Depends on what the character is doing. If he's just a run back of what we've been getting for the last 30 something years then no. If he's more social crusader that's actually getting things done to make the world a better place like the original Siegel character was then bring it on.
    "That was some good ass Tekken" - Tasty Steve

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    But to just put it to rest with facts, yes Diana was New 52 Superman's true love. This was methodically established over the course of its 4 year existence.
    No it wasn't. Clark had a fling with Diana because Lois was unavailable, and it had already been indicated in interviews by Johns the plan was for things to go badly between them. It's easier to suggest currently that N52 Clark loved Diana more because he's now a closed narrative, but you really don't have an inkling of what Clark would have felt if DC had kept him alive even today, especially with the WW movie having come and gone and Steve selected as the love interest.

    The Death of Superman movie nailed it with it's depictions of those two. Good times, didn't last, Lois is the one.

    The retcons were during Rebirth, so it doesn't count as New 52 information. The history was already in the process of changing at that point
    Until Reborn came into effect, Rebirth was still the N52 Universe. Diana didn't love Clark in the same way, and chose to move on with Steve, and that for a time was canonical fact.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    And there were plenty of people who liked the pre-Crsis Superman who didn't like having THEIR Superman taken from them. The fanbase has been divided for over 30 years. And I don't know if there is any way to patch it back together. Superman fans may forever be divided. Including the people who control him by the look of it.
    Oh god, I really don't want to get dragged into this argument again. But, the key difference between what happened in 1985 and what happened in 2011 was that Pre-Crisis to Post-Crisis actually had a comprehensive approach to continuity and kept a lot of what made Superman Superman. The transition from pre-Crisis to post-Crisis actually retained a lot of the story threads that existed before COIE and a lot of franchises continued on almost uninterrupted. And while Superman was a harder reboot than the other franchises, Post-Crisis Superman, in terms of personality and demeanor, was still closer to his Pre-Crisis self than New 52 Superman was to either. Not to mention that a lot of the continuity changes from COIE were undone in later years.

    Post-Crisis Superman didn't relegate Lois Lane to an almost non-existent role in the Superman franchise the way New 52 did. Post-Crisis Superman didn't have a drastically different aesthetic. Post-Crisis Superman wasn't plagued by bad writing brought on by editorial/creative spats for the majority of his existence. These are all things that made Post-Crisis more palatable. The way DC handled to the New 52 was a mess compared to the way Post-Crisis was executed. However, at the same time, if there was as direct a link between the creators and the fans in 1985 or 1986 as there is today, well then, maybe the changes of Crisis would never have happened or been reversed a few years later like the New 52 was.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 10-28-2018 at 01:45 PM.
    DC Pulls - Action Comics; Deathstroke; Doom Patrol; Superman

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  12. #72
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    No it wasn't. Clark had a fling with Diana because Lois was unavailable, and it had already been indicated in interviews by Johns the plan was for things to go badly between them. It's easier to suggest currently that N52 Clark loved Diana more because he's now a closed narrative, but you really don't have an inkling of what Clark would have felt if DC had kept him alive even today, especially with the WW movie having come and gone and Steve selected as the love interest.
    It absolutely was. All the New 52 provided was that Clark was interested in Lois for a time, didn't make a move, and later moved on and fell in love with Diana. Happens to people all the time. The past does not necessarily dictate/supersede present feelings. Emotions aren't that clear cut and you could probably turn any corner and run into a happy couple who'd greatly dispute the notion that one/both of them missing out on a past interest lessens their own. All the retcons didn't come until Rebirth officially began and was in the transitional phase before the larger erasures/restorations were put into effect by the larger Rebirth plotlines. So that can be put aside as a completely separate continuity structure. Looking at just the New 52, that Superman was in love with Diana and she with him to the point he was going to propose marriage. And he died still in love with her. The Johns interview is pretty much proof of nothing as he was being very vague and in those same vague comments suggested when things go bad they go good again, and so on and so forth. So his comments are really negligible. Looking through purely a New 52 prism, Diana was his true love. I really don't need to have an inkling what would have happened going forward within that same prism because they dismantled/ended it. There is essentially a finite ending in that regard. It was never a "fling" in the actual New 52 continuity, the tangible stories told fly completely in the face of that.

    If they brought back the incarnation of the character as discussed here, and continued/began anew his adventures, then obviously the book is opened again. But for now its closed and has been since the era ended.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 10-28-2018 at 02:20 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  13. #73
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    And while Superman was a harder reboot than the other franchises, Post-Crisis Superman, in terms of personality and demeanor, was still closer to his Pre-Crisis self than New 52 Superman was to either. Not to
    This is complete nonsense. Its far more accurate to say that personality changes were largely negligible both times around. Some notable instances but nothing that would confuse anyone who had knowledge of more than one era of Superman's vast history.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 10-28-2018 at 02:30 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    It absolutely was. All the New 52 provided was that Clark was interested in Lois for a time, didn't make a move, and later moved on and fell in love with Diana. Happens to people all the time.
    And people can fall out of love too. Clark did just that in Truth when Diana started lassoing his friends and being too clingy.

    All the retcons didn't come until Rebirth officially began and was in the transitional phase before the larger erasures/restorations were put into effect by the larger Rebirth plotlines. So that can be put aside as a completely separate continuity structure.
    That sounds more like you trying to undermine an epilogue to events because it intrudes on your preferred narrative.

    Looking at just the New 52, that Superman was in love with Diana and she with him to the point he was going to propose marriage.
    Looking at the New 52, Diana realised half her life was a lie, made her peace with the Super Family, and she moved on pretty quickly. I don't forsake pre-reborn storylines even if you do. I look at the events that unfolded afterwards and don't disengage from them until the comics specifically turn left.

    And he died still in love with her.
    Then Jon brought him back and he remembered he loved Lois with a bit of a nudge. Whatever feelings he had for Diana were likely imposed upon him by Manhattan.
    Last edited by Miles To Go; 10-28-2018 at 02:34 PM.

  15. #75
    Mighty Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Oh god, I really don't want to get dragged into this argument again. But, the key difference between what happened in 1985 and what happened in 2011 was that Pre-Crisis to Post-Crisis actually had a comprehensive approach to continuity and kept a lot of what made Superman Superman.
    No it didn't. It radically changed Clark as a character. Now the "man" was more important than the "super", the Kents were alive into Clark's adulthood, Lex was an old and fat guy who grew up in Metropolis, there was no Fortress of Solitude, Kara, Krypto, or other super-pets. Clark didn't interact with the Legion of Superheroes growing up. He became more of a yuppie-type guy, the all-American football QB with the idealized home life. Also Clark rejected his Kryptonian heritage in favor of his Earth upbringing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post

    Post-Crisis Superman didn't relegate Lois Lane to an almost non-existent role in the Superman franchise the way New 52 did. Post-Crisis Superman didn't have a drastically different aesthetic. Post-Crisis Superman wasn't plagued by bad writing brought on by editorial/creative spats for the majority of his existence. These are all things that made Post-Crisis more palatable. The way DC handled to the New 52 was a mess compared to the way Post-Crisis was executed. However, at the same time, if there was as direct a link between the creators and the fans in 1985 or 1986 as there is today, well then, maybe the changes of Crisis would never have happened or been reversed a few years later like the New 52 was.
    Oh yes he was. Basically all of the 00's Superman was an incredibly mediocre book. The big "event" New Krypton, flopped terribly and killed DC's desire to support the book. It got REALLY bad in the last years of Pre-FP, with that godawful Reign of Doomsday event with freaking Hank Henshaw. What a absolutely terrible ending for the character. The only saving grace during this time was Paul Cornell's The Black Ring starring Lex Luthor over in Action Comics.

    That's not to say New 52 wasn't mostly terrible though. I wasn't impressed with Pak on the book, and he's generally accepted as the second-best writer after Morrison during the New 52. Lobdell was absolutely awful. Perez got screwed by editorial. I didn't find the S/WW book good, too many constant tie-ins. But this belief you parrot that Post-Crisis was this magical time where Supes was blowing up the sales charts and everyone loved his book is false. After Johns left the Super-Line collapsed until the reboot.
    Last edited by Vordan; 10-28-2018 at 02:47 PM.

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