Would you buy a New 52 Superman book if DC brought him back?

[Sacred Knight]

And people can fall out of love too. Clark did just that in Truth when Diana started lassoing his friends and being too clingy.

Of course people can fall out of love. The New 52 versions never did though in the time they existed so that it can happen is irrelevant here. And no, Clark never fell out of love with Diana in Truth. The completed tale into Final Days shows he made it up because he was struggling with his power loss and the like. Douchey behavior to lie like that? Yeah. But it was a lie.

That sounds more like you trying to undermine an epilogue to events because it intrudes on your preferred narrative.

Not at all. Because it wasn't an epilogue. It was a bonafide return to a different continuity. At the time we weren't quite sure how it was all going to work out but it proved to be the transitionary period before the overarching plotlines moved to a place where certain things could just be outright erased/restored.

Looking at the New 52, Diana realised half her life was a lie, made her peace with the Super Family, and she moved on pretty quickly. I don't forsake pre-reborn storylines even if you do. I look at the events that unfolded afterwards and don't disengage from them until the comics specifically turn left.

None of that was New 52. Its not forsaking the storylines to understand that they became different, in this case their past, incarnations by the very initiative of the era. You're supposed to disengage from them as entirely altered worlds. There is a clear schism not meant to be played of as just a sliding scale of various retcons. That was the point of the initiative.

Then Jon brought him back and he remembered he loved Lois with a bit of a nudge

Okay, this one I could buy as evidence of a connection, if not for the fact he was quickly absorbed and forgotten about all over again. If the story had been applicable if it was a true merge, and it was in continuity that Clark was with Diana for a while and they broke up, then ended up with Lois, like the AU, that would support the argument better. But that's not what they did. They created a clear line between the two continuities, which is why I consider them distinctly separate. And that's just not regarding Superman, its the whole of the DCU. As time has passed between Rebirth's start to now, more and more New 52 concepts that were initially remaining have been dwindling. It supports the process of distinctly separating the two realities (by way of timeline tampering), which is why I draw that line. We're pretty much being told to.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

This is complete nonsense. Its far more accurate to say that personality changes were largely negligible both times around. Some notable instances but nothing that would confuse anyone who had knowledge of more than one era of Superman's vast history.

Not really. New 52 Superman was much more enthralled with his power while Pre- and Post-Crisis, Superman far more restrained and aware of the consequences of not holding back. He didn't think that his power made him "the shit" the way that New 52 Superman did.

[Last Son of Krypton]

Then Jon brought him back and he remembered he loved Lois with a bit of a nudge. Whatever feelings he had for Diana were likely imposed upon him by Manhattan.

Yeah, Dr. Manhattan is a Super-Wonder shipper. Seriously?

[Vordan]

That sounds more like you trying to undermine an epilogue to events because it intrudes on your preferred narrative.

Let's not play pretend here. The relationship was started by an editorial mandate, and was ended by an editorial mandate. New 52 Clark loved Diana best, as shown in Final Days. Rebirth was them tossing the New 52 out via a magic retcon, not an actual valid development of the relationship. And that's fine, I really couldn't care less about Supes love life, it doesn't matter to me who he dates.

But Lois was his best friend in the New 52, not his "One True Love" and boy do I hate that term. I hope Earth One Superman marries that red-headed girl if we ever get another book. I'd like an Elseworld that does something beyond "Clark goes evil" or "Clark lands in x place or x time period". You guys who love the LL/CK relationship will have the main book and plenty of others as well, there's no reason to freak out because an Elseworld book wants to explore something else.

[Vordan]

not really. New 52 superman was much more enthralled with his power while pre- and post-crisis, superman far more restrained and aware of the consequences of not holding back. he didn't think that his power made him "the shit" the way that new 52 superman did.

lmaooooooooooo

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And Pre-Crisis Supes was screwing around with Lois all the time. If you think New 52 Superman was a hardass, he's a Boy Scout compared to how Golden Age Supes got stuff done.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

No it didn't. It radically changed Clark as a character. Now the "man" was more important than the "super", the Kents were alive into Clark's adulthood, Lex was an old and fat guy who grew up in Metropolis, there was no Fortress of Solitude, Kara, Krypto, or other super-pets. Clark didn't interact with the Legion of Superheroes growing up. He became more of a yuppie-type guy, the all-American football QB with the idealized home life. Also Clark rejected his Kryptonian heritage in favor of his Earth upbringing.

Except, again, subsequent years and continuity revisions brought almost all of that stuff back anyway. By the time Flashpoint rolled around, Lex was once again from Smallville, the Fortress of Solitude, Krypto, and even Kara were all brought back, he had once again interacted with the Legion growing up, etc. Also, I remember a lot of Superman stories from Post-Crisis that showed him connecting with his Kryptonian roots. His Earth upbringing obviously resonated with him more because, well, that just makes sense for a character who grew up on Earth, but he still cared about his Kryptonian heritage.

Oh yes he was. Basically all of the 00's Superman was an incredibly mediocre book. The big "event" New Krypton, flopped terribly and killed DC's desire to support the book. It got REALLY bad in the last years of Pre-FP, with that godawful Reign of Doomsday event with freaking Hank Henshaw. What a absolutely terrible ending for the character. The only saving grace during this time was Paul Cornell's The Black Ring starring Lex Luthor over in Action Comics.

I'm not saying that there weren't bad times before Flashpoint, but for the most part, Post-Crisis was a solid era for Superman comics. You has the Busiek run of the mid-2000s, you had Jurgens and co. in the '90s, you had Byrne in the 80s, etc. And, in all honesty, I would take the worst of the Pre-Flashpoint Superman over the New 52 Superman comics. They just weren't that good, even the Morrison stuff, and what's worse is it destroyed almost everything that made the character appealing.

[Sacred Knight]

Not really. New 52 Superman was much more enthralled with his power while Pre- and Post-Crisis, Superman far more restrained and aware of the consequences of not holding back. He didn't think that his power made him "the shit" the way that New 52 Superman did.

That's just not true. New 52 Superman was no more enthralled by his powers than long-time readers were quite comfortable with in the pre-Crisis days, most notably the Silver Age. Hell in that comparison he was less enthralled with them than pre-Crisis Superman. This was a guy who played freaking pranks using his powers. He absolutely loved his abilities, and was very much confident in himself to sometimes the point of arrogance.

[Vordan]

Except, again, subsequent years and continuity revisions brought almost all of that stuff back anyway. By the time Flashpoint rolled around, Lex was once again from Smallville, the Fortress of Solitude, Krypto, and even Kara were all brought back, he had once again interacted with the Legion growing up, etc. Also, I remember a lot of Superman stories from Post-Crisis that showed him connecting with his Kryptonian roots. His Earth upbringing obviously resonated with him more because, well, that just makes sense for a character who grew up on Earth, but he still cared about his Kryptonian heritage.



I'm not saying that there weren't bad times before Flashpoint, but for the most part, Post-Crisis was a solid era for Superman comics. You has the Busiek run of the mid-2000s, you had Jurgens and co. in the '90s, you had Byrne in the 80s, etc. And, in all honesty, I would take the worst of the Pre-Flashpoint Superman over the New 52 Superman comics. They just weren't that good, even the Morrison stuff, and what's worse is it destroyed almost everything that made the character appealing.

Yeah they brought it back, but it took a while, and it wasn't there at the start. At the start Clark was a radically different character. What you're describing here is pretty much what happened to New 52 Superman. Once Johns came on-board they gave him his journalist job back, reestablished his friendship with Jimmy, and started shipping Clois again. Of course they then did Truth and totally destroyed all that but hey it's DC, kings of shooting themselves in the foot.

And just to be clear: I mostly agree with you about the New 52. I don't think it was a really good time overall for Supes. I liked Rebirth way better, but I don't think New 52 Supes failed because of his attitude, his relationships, or his origins. Post-Crisis Supes was doing terribly in his last years. New 52 Supes failed because editorial sucked and no one had the talent to follow up on Morrison. I think incorporating the Golden Age history into Superman is important, I'll take him being a hotheaded crusader over a yuppie football player any day. It's a good starting point for growth and actually respects his comic history rather than worshiping Donner.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

lmaooooooooooo

Supesnotthinkinghestheshit.jpg

And Pre-Crisis Supes was screwing around with Lois all the time. If you think New 52 Superman was a hardass, he's a Boy Scout compared to how Golden Age Supes got stuff done.

You're seriously taking one isolated incident taken completely out of context to illustrate your point?

You failed to mention how that woman was part of an armed gang that was holding people hostage and, just a few panels earlier, had been shooting at him.




Also, notice how he flicks her with her finger, and doesn't rail on her with his fists.

Either way, that's not what I'm really talking about. I'm talking about how, before the New 52, Superman didn't seem to define himself by how powerful he was. After it, however, he was more enthralled with his power and what he could do and believed it made him superior in a way. I mean, that's why he related to Diana. That's part of why he was attracted to her. It was because she was almost as powerful as him.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

That's just not true. New 52 Superman was no more enthralled by his powers than long-time readers were quite comfortable with in the pre-Crisis days, most notably the Silver Age. Hell in that comparison he was less enthralled with them than pre-Crisis Superman. This was a guy who played freaking pranks using his powers. He absolutely loved his abilities, and was very much confident in himself to sometimes the point of arrogance.

I mean, it was the main reason why he was attracted to Diana: her power matching his own.

[Sacred Knight]

I never said he wasn't attracted to her power (but it wasn't the main thing). The main thing that initially drew him to her was that he felt she could relate with him on a deeper level of said powers isolating him at times. And it grew from there. But yeah he was impressed with her power. Probably found it sexy. Nothing wrong with that. But all this is rather besides the point of what you quoted from me in the first place. I'm disputing your false claim he enjoyed his powers far more than any incarnation including pre-Crisis. This is just a blatant falsehood.

[Vordan]

You're seriously taking one isolated incident taken completely out of context to illustrate your point?

You failed to mention how that woman was part of an armed gang that was holding people hostage and, just a few panels earlier, had been shooting at him.




Also, notice how he flicks her with her finger, and doesn't rail on her with his fists.

Either way, that's not what I'm really talking about. I'm talking about how, before the New 52, Superman didn't seem to define himself by how powerful he was. After it, however, he was more enthralled with his power and what he could do and believed it made him superior in a way. I mean, that's why he related to Diana. That's part of why he was attracted to her. It was because she was almost as powerful as him.

I'm going to need a citation for that. That's not at all how Morrison wrote him. Johns didn't write him like that in his brief run either and I don't think Pak did either.

Edit: Yeah I don’t know what you’re talking about, but I remember the exact opposite. He cared deeply what others thought.
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[Korath]

Let's not play pretend here. The relationship was started by an editorial mandate, and was ended by an editorial mandate. New 52 Clark loved Diana best, as shown in Final Days. Rebirth was them tossing the New 52 out via a magic retcon, not an actual valid development of the relationship. And that's fine, I really couldn't care less about Supes love life, it doesn't matter to me who he dates.

But Lois was his best friend in the New 52, not his "One True Love" and boy do I hate that term. I hope Earth One Superman marries that red-headed girl if we ever get another book. I'd like an Elseworld that does something beyond "Clark goes evil" or "Clark lands in x place or x time period". You guys who love the LL/CK relationship will have the main book and plenty of others as well, there's no reason to freak out because an Elseworld book wants to explore something else.

That's basically what I want for a SM/WW book : an elseworld, with its own universe, relationships, etc, but based on the stories of the New 52. What is the point of doing the same thing as the main book, if the main book is already doing it anyway ?

[Sacred Knight]

I'm going to need a citation for that. That's not at all how Morrison wrote him. Johns didn't write him like that in his brief run either and I don't think Pak did either.

Edit: Yeah I don’t know what you’re talking about, but I remember the exact opposite. He cared deeply what others thought.
3126EE13-96F8-4552-B3CF-D0A6B84218B0.jpg
AC_Cv3_jsahdfa9s.jpg

He's confusing an acknowledgment of isolation, and a lack of relatability with feeling superior. Those things were acknowledged at certain points. Now if one doesn't like that in their Superman, more than fair. But it was never shown that he felt superior to them just because he had powers. Its a false equivalency that because he enjoyed his powers and the things he could do, he felt it made him better than anyone. Just like any incarnation of Superman, Clark was taught by Jonathan early on that that's a bullcrap mindset. So there is no citation for that. But he did acknowledge it made him feel different and isolated.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Yeah they brought it back, but it took a while, and it wasn't there at the start. At the start Clark was a radically different character. What you're describing here is pretty much what happened to New 52 Superman. Once Johns came on-board they gave him his journalist job back, reestablished his friendship with Jimmy, and started shipping Clois again. Of course they then did Truth and totally destroyed all that but hey it's DC, kings of shooting themselves in the foot.

Well, again, I said Superman was one of the properties that went through a harder reboot from Crisis. But, from Pre- to Post-Crisis, the trappings of Superman remained familiar: the Daily Planet, Lois Lane being his main love interest, the aesthetic, his maturity level, etc. New 52 kind of took to destroying all of those things. I mean, people have even postulated that there was a reason DC wanted to make New 52 Superman so different from what had come before.

I think incorporating the Golden Age history into Superman is important, I'll take him being a hotheaded crusader over a yuppie football player any day. It's a good starting point for growth and actually respects his comic history rather than worshiping Donner.

Him being a football player has no bearing on whether he is a social crusader. Even when he was a "yuppie," he fought for the interests of the little guy. He fought for everyone. Except, he doesn't have to be busting down peoples' walls to be doing that. Pre-Flashpoint Superman represented a more mature hero who wanted to fight for equality but not burn down the whole system to do it. New 52 Superman didn't really grow out of the impulsive actions of youth.

I get that you think its important to stay true to Golden Age, but there's a difference between doing that and basically ignoring the fact that some of things GA Superman did were legitimately f-ed up.