What To Do With Donna Troy

[donnafan]

Ehh, I mean, you're not wrong, and I know Donna has a loyal fanbase.......but I don't know if saving Donna would be high on my priority list, either, so I can't totally blame DC for ignoring her so much. Though I would've taken the opportunities of New52 and Rebirth to, if nothing else, put her on some solid ground. I mean, you're rebooting so you might as well.

Speaking as one of Donna's loyal fanbase, I absolutely think the character can and should be saved. There is an opportunity to showcase a powerful, established female hero/warrior related to Greek mythology with deep ties to the DC universe that already has a fanbase. I feel like it's a no-brainer. Look at the success of the Wonder Woman movie and the huge popularity the character is now enjoying with a new generation. Fans are interested in these types of stories and characters. Donna should be tossed because of her mishandled origins? Worst things have happened to characters. Hydra-Cap for instance. There's a reason this character has survived over 50 years of publication history even though her initial creation as a separate Teen Titans character was an writers mistake. It turned out to be a good mistake because Teen Titans have enjoyed immense popularity over the years. Donna suffers the same issues as the rest of Wonder Woman's supporting cast, unfortunately.

I've sounded off about this several times that WW related-characters don't get the same treatment as her contemporaries Superman and Batman. In general, I feel like DC has historically mishandled their strong, female characters. In my opinion there's no reason why Donna can't be the Nightwing to Wonder Woman. Well, minus the recent events, of course...

[SiegePerilous02]

Speaking as one of Donna's loyal fanbase, I absolutely think the character can and should be saved. There is an opportunity to showcase a powerful, established female hero/warrior related to Greek mythology with deep ties to the DC universe that already has a fanbase. I feel like it's a no-brainer. Look at the success of the Wonder Woman movie and the huge popularity the character is now enjoying with a new generation. Fans are interested in these types of stories and characters. Donna should be tossed because of her mishandled origins? Worst things have happened to characters. Hydra-Cap for instance. There's a reason this character has survived over 50 years of publication history even though her initial creation as a separate Teen Titans character was an writers mistake. It turned out to be a good mistake because Teen Titans have enjoyed immense popularity over the years. Donna suffers the same issues as the rest of Wonder Woman's supporting cast, unfortunately.

I've sounded off about this several times that WW related-characters don't get the same treatment as her contemporaries Superman and Batman. In general, I feel like DC has historically mishandled their strong, female characters. In my opinion there's no reason why Donna can't be the Nightwing to Wonder Woman. Well, minus the recent events, of course...

While there is no doubt about the bolded, there is the matter that Donna being a WW-related character is highly questionable. She was not deliberately created by Wonder Woman's creator or any of the subsequent writers of the WW franchise, she was created for the Teen Titans. The WW franchise didn't really ask for the equivalent of Dick Grayson, she was just sort of...foisted upon it, when it already has enough difficulty getting its own house in order. According to Comic Vine, she only has six guest appearances in the original volume of Wonder Woman, and three of those include other guest stars, including the NTT. And that was back when her origins and connections with Wonder Woman actually made sense. Most of the interactions between her, Diana and Hippolyta occurred when Wolfman wrote them in NTT. She didn't start regularly appearing in the main WW book until post-Crisis when it started to make less sense for to even be there.

I like pre-Crisis Donna a great deal, and its not the characters faults, but headache after headache with her does make the thought of just moving on from her have some appeal. I don't really want her to be shelved and would love it if her origins were streamlined back down to what they used to be, but at the same time I cannot blame a writer for the Wonder Woman comic not feeling obligated to use Donna. Hippolyta, the Amazons, Steve, Etta, the Gods, Cassie and even the likes of Ferdinand, the Kapatelis women, and the Holliday Girls, plus the long neglected rogues gallery, should probably get priority since they've all been part of this franchise more consistently than Donna.

[Incognito]

Not a big fan of Donna but I think she should be fixed rather than being in limbo or killed off.

Here what I would do with Donna Troy:

- Donna who was an infant child old at the time lived in Athens, Greece, and was adopted by Wonder Woman after her parents was killed by a villian. Donna's mother was an Amazon, which also makes her an Amazon too (or part-Amazon). Diana comes to treat Donna as one of her own sisters, and Hippolyta treats her as one of her own daughters like Diana.
- Donna followed her big sister into ''Man's world'' without having WW notice. She remember some memories like she have lived her before.
- Donna was bestow some magical artefacts by Hippolyta to become Wonder Girl. Then a few years later, she was bestowed mythical powers by Selene of the Titans to become Darkstar, her physical capabilities were now enhanced and she has an elemental control over darkness and the ability to manipulate lunar energy although these power are often associated with the appearance of the moon, she's limited and can be drained by sunlight. She also carries the Lasso of Persuasion.
- As Darkstar she uses her power to fight physical and mythical threats (and also threats that appears at night whether its vampire, werwolves, etc.).
- She is a recurring character in Wonder Woman and a main character in Titans. As Donna Troy she is a freelance photographer during the day (and Starfire's personal photographer), and as Darkstar she is a superhero at night.

If it's not good then another idea that she is just another Amazon who lived on the island just like in Earth One and Legend of Wonder Woman which was simple or she was a response to Diana's birth where the Titans decide that they needed to create a demigod of their own to stop Diana because she is an agent of the Olympians, so in a sense she was born to be a contingent against Wonder Woman.

[Ascended]

Speaking as one of Donna's loyal fanbase, I absolutely think the character can and should be saved.

And I hope you get it. I'm not one of Donna's fans, but I do hate to see people lose a favorite character. And its not like I got anything against Donna personally. If DC can figure out a way to make her work and be relevant and anything more than a big headache, great.

There is an opportunity to showcase a powerful, established female hero/warrior related to Greek mythology with deep ties to the DC universe that already has a fanbase.

And we have one. Her name is Wonder Woman. I suspect that a push for Donna, without doing something drastic to make her really stand apart (and how far can you go before she's not Donna anymore?), would just result in cannibalization of sales and no one will benefit from it, least of all the matron of the Wonder-franchise herself, Diana.

Donna should be tossed because of her mishandled origins? Worst things have happened to characters. Hydra-Cap for instance.

No, she should (maybe) be tossed because she doesn't really have a proper home or purpose. She's only a member of the Wonder-franchise by tenuous connections but still adds her complications to Diana's mythos, which has enough problems of its own and doesn't need the extra weight. And the NTT reunions haven't satisfied in ages; I don't know if being stuck as a Titan actually helps Donna (anyone happy about her drinking? Or her sleeping with Roy just to prove she wasn't just a nice girl in the previous continuity?). Donna exists just so Dick's generation has a Wonder counted among its representation.....and that seems like poor reasoning to me for keeping such a troublesome character around.

There's a reason this character has survived over 50 years of publication history even though her initial creation as a separate Teen Titans character was an writers mistake. It turned out to be a good mistake because Teen Titans have enjoyed immense popularity over the years. Donna suffers the same issues as the rest of Wonder Woman's supporting cast, unfortunately.

Oh, Donna was part of a successful book back in the day, absolutely. And fans have never fully let go of the NTT era. But she's always been problematic, caused issues with the wider DCU continuity, and DC hit a dead-end with her after Perez that, despite many attempts, just don't go anywhere. Like many of the NTT, she's been riding that success for thirty years, but hasn't been adding to it. For me, its less "can" she be saved (because of course she can) but more "should" she be saved, and I'm not sure if she's worth the effort more than a lot of other characters who need the TLC.

I've sounded off about this several times that WW related-characters don't get the same treatment as her contemporaries Superman and Batman. In general, I feel like DC has historically mishandled their strong, female characters. In my opinion there's no reason why Donna can't be the Nightwing to Wonder Woman. Well, minus the recent events, of course...

Diana (and the NTT) have been terribly handled by DC, historically. Absolutely agreed. It has stunted the development of Diana's world to a terrible degree.

[Ascended]

Sorry for dropping a separate post but.....

Another thing you could do with Donna (which wont satisfy her fans, sorry) is use her to highlight the cost of a Crisis and how those events damage reality and the lives of the people.

Donna was a glitch from the start. So maybe explore that. What if Donna was, literally, a cosmic glitch and she was never supposed to exist in the first place. She's lived a whole life, made friends, all of that.....and she's never been a real, actual part of the world; only a symptom of a reality broken during a Crisis event. How would that impact the rest of the DCU, to know that this person you've known for years was really just a glitch in the system, and fixing reality meant fixing that glitch? Imagine the personal cost to those who knew her? Donna might be better served as a "saint" in the DCU moreso than an active hero. Her memory and how she influenced the lives of other characters and the light she sheds on how a Crisis can change the world might be more valuable than Donna herself.

[Agent Z]

Sorry for dropping a separate post but.....

Another thing you could do with Donna (which wont satisfy her fans, sorry) is use her to highlight the cost of a Crisis and how those events damage reality and the lives of the people.

Donna was a glitch from the start. So maybe explore that. What if Donna was, literally, a cosmic glitch and she was never supposed to exist in the first place. She's lived a whole life, made friends, all of that.....and she's never been a real, actual part of the world; only a symptom of a reality broken during a Crisis event. How would that impact the rest of the DCU, to know that this person you've known for years was really just a glitch in the system, and fixing reality meant fixing that glitch? Imagine the personal cost to those who knew her? Donna might be better served as a "saint" in the DCU moreso than an active hero. Her memory and how she influenced the lives of other characters and the light she sheds on how a Crisis can change the world might be more valuable than Donna herself.

This doesn't actually fix Donna. It just removes her from active use.

[CRaymond]

Has Greg Rucka ever written or discussed Donna Troy role or persona?

[SiegePerilous02]

And we have one. Her name is Wonder Woman. I suspect that a push for Donna, without doing something drastic to make her really stand apart (and how far can you go before she's not Donna anymore?), would just result in cannibalization of sales and no one will benefit from it, least of all the matron of the Wonder-franchise herself, Diana.

I've been wondering if, when they rebooted during the first Crisis, they should have just retroactively made it so she was never a super heroine called Wonder Girl and given her a new identity if they really wanted to reboot Wonder Woman entirely. She would still have her place in the Titans, and I guess the Titan Seed origin could be used, but just be a teenage superhero who wasn't a Wonder. Because having her run around with a lasso and bracelets before Wonder Woman even shows up is just pure insanity. They never got around to addressing that with the first stab at a new origin, did they?

But how much can you chip away at Donna before she ceases to be Donna? Wonder Girl is part of her identity and the reason she exists in the first place, so I can understand not wanting to part with that persona. She really is a victim of DC wanting it both ways with their reboots, and never managing to do so.

And you're right about your last point. Diana herself needs to benefit from this, or at least not be burdened by fixing Donna, or else there is no point to any of this.

Has Greg Rucka ever written or discussed Donna Troy role or persona?

Diana angsted about recently dead Donna in his first run (before she got better), and I think she briefly appeared in one of the Cheetah issues following Max Lord's death. That's about it though.

Him coasting right on by her in Rebirth leads me to believe he might not be interested, though that may have been editorial.

[CRaymond]

Him coasting right on by her in Rebirth leads me to believe he might not be interested, though that may have been editorial.

Right. It's a glaring omission given how Rebirth was lauded and received. I question whether Donna was brought up, and what the plan was at that specific point.

If you're not doing a continuity rewrite with Donna Troy and Hawkman as touchstones, it's not a good rewrite.

[OBrianTallent]

The truly unfortunate thing is that for the most part, this thread has generated far better ideas and ways to restore/improve Donna Troy than anything that has been developed by DC Comics in the last two handfuls of years. It doesn't take much to craft a story that not only streamlines, but also clears out a lot of the baggage that has been handed to the character. The Wonder Woman editor at the time should never have allowed a writer (Meredith Finch) who publicly spoke about her lack of knowledge of the characters she was writing to have a hand in one of their more prominent characters (and yes, as a mainstay of a Titans team, Donna should be considered as important as Dick Grayson or Wally West. However, the current leadership of DC does not see any of that generation of characters important. I think it's a little telling, almost as much as drawing a line, in how the characters are handled depending on who is in charge. Wally West went from being one of the key components of the Rebirth under Geoff Johns' leadership to presumed dead when the line shifted back under Dan Didio, who didn't see a need to introduce him at all in the New 52. While Donna never had the importance given to her that Wally, Dick or even Roy has been given during the New 52, she seemed to be returning to her old character. Now we see her as a budding alcoholic with still violent tendencies. That's really a role model they've build there.
Whether it's under the Titans editorship or under Wonder Woman's, someone needs to sit down and put just an ounce of thought into this character and make her worthwhile. Likewise, as has been mentioned, with Wonder Woman having been the only true success of the DC movies (Aquaman still remains to be seen, but looks promising) it should be a no-brainer to put some serious effort into her world in comics and build upon it. But, then DC has never been one to actually be actionable under Didio's tenure. I mean, Supergirl had a hit tv show (modest, but still a hit) and DC wasn't even publishing a Supergirl comic book for what, about a year? Same goes for Black Lightning...excellent tv series....no comics (until at least December when Outsiders returns.) Even further up the chain, DC leadership is more concerned about the shadow of a anatomy more so than the assassination of the characters (Batman/Nightwing, Arsenal, Wally West, Poison Ivy). So I guess I shouldn't be surprised they cant seem to get one nominal character even remotely close to what the fans are actually wanting.

[Ascended]

This doesn't actually fix Donna. It just removes her from active use.

Exactly. My point through most of this discussion has been that I'm not at all convinced Donna should be salvaged. Over thirty years and she's only become a bigger, more confusing mess and I can't think of any time when she added to the wider DCU after the NTT. There were a couple points where she might have, had things gone slightly differently, but those opportunities passed. At some point, you just gotta cut your losses and move on, and stop throwing good money after bad. Sure, she could theoretically be saved, and I hope someone rolls up who can do it, and do it well. But is the cost worthwhile?

Right. It's a glaring omission given how Rebirth was lauded and received. I question whether Donna was brought up, and what the plan was at that specific point.

If you're not doing a continuity rewrite with Donna Troy and Hawkman as touchstones, it's not a good rewrite.

Quoted for truth. You have to untangle the worst knots before you can get to the smaller ones.

I've been wondering if, when they rebooted during the first Crisis, they should have just retroactively made it so she was never a super heroine called Wonder Girl and given her a new identity if they really wanted to reboot Wonder Woman entirely. She would still have her place in the Titans, and I guess the Titan Seed origin could be used, but just be a teenage superhero who wasn't a Wonder.

Rock and a hard place, that is. Because it probably would've been better for Diana and Donna both to remove her from all that, but if you do, Donna loses the brand recognition and so do the Titans.

But how much can you chip away at Donna before she ceases to be Donna? Wonder Girl is part of her identity and the reason she exists in the first place, so I can understand not wanting to part with that persona. She really is a victim of DC wanting it both ways with their reboots, and never managing to do so.

Donna Troy is like the poster child for DC's inept editorial decisions, from her creation straight through to the many missed opportunities to capitalize on her character to the constantly rebooting history. I really do feel sorry for the character, she's been handicapped by DC's incompetence from the start, and I feel for her fans who suffer through it (though we all have characters we love that DC sh*ts on all the time).

And you're right about your last point. Diana herself needs to benefit from this, or at least not be burdened by fixing Donna, or else there is no point to any of this.

And that's the crux of it, for me. Does Diana gain more from fixing Donna, or does she gain more from putting that effort and time into fixing the problems in Diana's backyard?

[Agent Z]

Exactly. My point through most of this discussion has been that I'm not at all convinced Donna should be salvaged. Over thirty years and she's only become a bigger, more confusing mess and I can't think of any time when she added to the wider DCU after the NTT. There were a couple points where she might have, had things gone slightly differently, but those opportunities passed. At some point, you just gotta cut your losses and move on, and stop throwing good money after bad. Sure, she could theoretically be saved, and I hope someone rolls up who can do it, and do it well. But is the cost worthwhile?



Quoted for truth. You have to untangle the worst knots before you can get to the smaller ones.



Rock and a hard place, that is. Because it probably would've been better for Diana and Donna both to remove her from all that, but if you do, Donna loses the brand recognition and so do the Titans.



Donna Troy is like the poster child for DC's inept editorial decisions, from her creation straight through to the many missed opportunities to capitalize on her character to the constantly rebooting history. I really do feel sorry for the character, she's been handicapped by DC's incompetence from the start, and I feel for her fans who suffer through it (though we all have characters we love that DC sh*ts on all the time).



And that's the crux of it, for me. Does Diana gain more from fixing Donna, or does she gain more from putting that effort and time into fixing the problems in Diana's backyard?

Donna is one of those problems in Diana's backyard. And it isn't like she's the only character that DC's been screwing up. If we got rid of any character that was screwed up for an extended period of time, the only one that would be left is Batman. It isn't like it's impossible to fix Donna, it's just DC's ineptitude. And while I understand you not caring for Donna, I have to say the idea they should just get rid of her is a strange one to have in a thread that is about finding ways to fix her.

You ask if the cost is worthwhile. People ask the same of every character with problems. Including the guy in your avatar.

[SiegePerilous02]

This doesn't actually fix Donna. It just removes her from active use.

But questioning whether or not Donna is worth salvaging is a valid thing to discuss though. This is a character that has had editorial problems dating all the way back to her (mostly accidental!) creation. She's gotten worse since, and hasn't been featured in a hit run since the NTT days. Ascended makes the valid point that the glory days of that run are the main reason many don't want to let her go, myself included. But she's never contributed anything to the Wonderverse beyond more continuity problems. That's like shoveling crap onto an already big crap pile, because Wonder Woman has her own continuity baggage to address before we even bring in an accidentally created connection to the Teen Titans.

And that's the crux of it, for me. Does Diana gain more from fixing Donna, or does she gain more from putting that effort and time into fixing the problems in Diana's backyard?

Yeah. So we want the Wonder verse to utilize Donna. Fine. What does she bring to the table? She needs it more than it needs her.

Donna is one of those problems in Diana's backyard.

Is she though? Evidence suggest that she's more of a Titans character with WW connections than someone from Diana's back yard.

You ask if the cost is worthwhile. People ask the same of every character with problems. Including the guy in your avatar.

Every character has problems. Not many are the punch line Donna Troy has become or share the level of difficulty she faces.

Comparing her to Superman or Wonder Woman's problems seems like a major false equivalency. Especially as they have more solid foundations, were deliberately created, can stand completely on their own and contributed more to the company's success. Donna's last successful run was a team book in the 80s, she doesn't have much before or especially since.

[Agent Z]

But questioning whether or not Donna is worth salvaging is a valid thing to discuss though. This is a character that has had editorial problems dating all the way back to her (mostly accidental!) creation. She's gotten worse since, and hasn't been featured in a hit run since the NTT days. Ascended makes the valid point that the glory days of that run are the main reason many don't want to let her go, myself included. But she's never contributed anything to the Wonderverse beyond more continuity problems. That's like shoveling crap onto an already big crap pile, because Wonder Woman has her own continuity baggage to address before we even bring in an accidentally created connection to the Teen Titans.




Yeah. So we want the Wonder verse to utilize Donna. Fine. What does she bring to the table? She needs it more than it needs her.

Whether or not Donna should be salvaged isn't the topic of this thread.

[CRaymond]

Yeah. So we want the Wonder verse to utilize Donna. Fine. What does she bring to the table? She needs it more than it needs her.

One thing I'd challenge forum creatives to consider is to focus on Diana's world --rather than look to Superman, Batman, the Flash family, the Green Lanterns, etc for justification. Donna should emerge from a Wonder Woman worldbuild, rather than a justified & comparable Supergirl, Robin, Kid Flash, Garth, etc.