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  1. #76
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Donna is one of those problems in Diana's backyard.
    Technically she's a problem in the Titans' backyard. I don't even think Donna usually falls under the Wonder editorial office, but the Titans' office (could be wrong though). She's just a Wonder shaped problem that Diana has to account for but has damn little control over.

    And it isn't like she's the only character that DC's been screwing up. If we got rid of any character that was screwed up for an extended period of time, the only one that would be left is Batman.
    Even Batman has had his problems over time. But there are very few who have *always* been problematic. Donna just happens to be one of them.

    And while I understand you not caring for Donna, I have to say the idea they should just get rid of her is a strange one to have in a thread that is about finding ways to fix her.
    >shrug< I'm trying to find ways to make her matter, even if it is only as a memory. And I've offered several ideas that not only keep her alive, but increase her importance to the wider DCU. It's not like Im out to get her or anything.

    You ask if the cost is worthwhile. People ask the same of every character with problems. Including the guy in your avatar.
    Of course. And in this particular case, my opinion is that the cost might (and that's all I've said; *might*) not be worth it.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Technically she's a problem in the Titans' backyard. I don't even think Donna usually falls under the Wonder editorial office, but the Titans' office (could be wrong though). She's just a Wonder shaped problem that Diana has to account for but has damn little control over.



    Even Batman has had his problems over time. But there are very few who have *always* been problematic. Donna just happens to be one of them.



    >shrug< I'm trying to find ways to make her matter, even if it is only as a memory. And I've offered several ideas that not only keep her alive, but increase her importance to the wider DCU. It's not like Im out to get her or anything.



    Of course. And in this particular case, my opinion is that the cost might (and that's all I've said; *might*) not be worth it.
    I mean, literally your first post in this thread began with the words "I don't know if she's worth saving". That's a strange position to start from if you actually are interested in salvaging her character. And most of your ideas have her as either taking a backseat role in the DCU or being take off the board entirely.

  3. #78
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Whether or not Donna should be salvaged isn't the topic of this thread.
    The thread title is "What to do with Donna Troy?" That leaves a lot of room to discuss whether anything should be done at all. Not everyone in the WW forum is gonna be a fan of hers. And even if they are, that shouldn't prevent them from expressing the opinion that the character has a lot of problems (because she does) that may not be worth it. It's down to editorial ineptitude, but said ineptitude goes way further back than the current people in charge.

    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    One thing I'd challenge forum creatives to consider is to focus on Diana's world --rather than look to Superman, Batman, the Flash family, the Green Lanterns, etc for justification. Donna should emerge from a Wonder Woman worldbuild, rather than a justified & comparable Supergirl, Robin, Kid Flash, Garth, etc.
    I think her being paired with Dick, Wally, Garth and Roy makes it understandable that people view her as the WW equivalent to all of them. But yeah, her creation isn't like their's. They were deliberately created in their parent franchises after all.

  4. #79
    Extraordinary Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I think her being paired with Dick, Wally, Garth and Roy makes it understandable that people view her as the WW equivalent to all of them. But yeah, her creation isn't like their's. They were deliberately created in their parent franchises after all.
    Yeah, you get what I mean. OF COURSE people are going to justify the Donna slot in Diana's world from the Titans, but the Wonder Woman world is a very different place than the Superverse of Gotham. It's epic and mythological, it's female and family, it's magical and still very, very grounded in human choices.

  5. #80
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    Yeha, you get what I mean. OF COURSE people are going to justify the Donna slot in Diana's world from the Titans, but the Wonder Woman world is a very different place than the Superverse of Gotham. It's epic and mythological, it's female and family, it's magical and still very, very grounded in human choices.
    I mean, I think Donna's original origin fits right in with all of that. That' why it mostly worked pre-Crisis, before the larger headaches began to happen. The problem is the inescapable fact that, as great an idea as her origin is, it didn't happen in the Wonder Woman title. We and the character can't get away from it. There is ALWAYS going to be a disconnect between Donna and the larger Wonder Woman mythos. it is basically asking the latter to inherit the problems it didn't create, on top of its own considerable issues.

  6. #81
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I mean, literally your first post in this thread began with the words "I don't know if she's worth saving". That's a strange position to start from if you actually are interested in salvaging her character.
    Well, I have a bias (even if I dont have anything against her) and I wanted that to be clear.

    And if she could be salvaged without sucking up so much effort Diana's world suffers for it or the Titans just re-tread old ground (like they've been doing for twenty years)? Cool. I just don't know if it's possible right now.

    And most of your ideas have her as either taking a backseat role in the DCU or being take off the board entirely.
    Well, grabbing an old origin and dumping the rest doesn't diminish her role in the DCU. It just makes her a little less of a headache to use.

    Making her the new Harbinger of the multiverse increases her importance to the DCU a million-fold without writing her off as a "plot device" character (like the Spectre often is).

    Making her a younger, time traveling version of Diana makes "Donna" actually come from the parent franchise she's supposed to come from (but never has), and doesn't diminish her role (it would probably increase it) and since "Donna's" not going to remember her first trip to Man's World you can still develop her largely as her own character.

    And making her a supporting cast member.....yeah, we won't see her in the big splash pages where the heroes fight the big villain, but we often don't see that anyway, so it's not really a loss. Especially since she could always suit up if the world really needed that extra flying brick. This would give Donna a place in Diana's tile, which she almost never has. It allows her to explore the space where superhumanity meets the "real" world, and that's a niche we haven't often seen explored since Gotham Central ended. We'd gain Donna as a regular part of Diana's title, and lose her role in the Titans.....and the Titans haven't had much quality in a long time, so again I'm not sure if it's a loss. Would it be better to see Donna treated well as a regular part of Diana's cast, or used poorly in a bad book where she gets to punch things?
    Last edited by Ascended; 11-01-2018 at 01:58 PM.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  7. #82
    Extraordinary Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I mean, I think Donna's original origin fits right in with all of that.
    Right, but the current continuity doesn't allows for that Donna. If we're going to fully chalkboard a new Donna Troy, her introduction and inclusion into the Wonder Woman world is paramount.

  8. #83
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    Right, but the current continuity doesn't allows for that Donna. If we're going to fully chalkboard a new Donna Troy, her introduction and inclusion into the Wonder Woman world is paramount.
    I think the current continuity would allow it for Donna, at least if we focus only on the WW corner of the DCU and quietly pretend everything with the Titans that's happened in the last couple years didn't exist. Diana cannot be the one to rescue her from the fire, but that's pretty much it. They just need to do a quick flashback set during Year One to explain where 12/13 year old Donna was during the Contest, and then say she left to become Wonder Girl a few months after or something.

    None of that would solve what the hell to do with her (or her whole generation) now, but at least her foundation would be fixed.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I don't think that would help, especially not with Cassie coming back with the rest of Young Justice.

    Plus explaining how Donna ends up de-aged and part of a generation not her own is just going to make her fictional character biography even crazier than it already is.



    Yeah, it's not always easy to pin down precisely where a character starts to go wrong, but that is not the case with Donna. Despite the best efforts of Marv and George given the circumstances out of their control, it was New Titans #50/Who is Wonder Girl? It's been all down hill ever since.



    I think it may be too late in the game to make her Wonder Woman's Nightwing (and considering some of the treatment Dick himself gets, that may not be desirable). But yes, why Rucka didn't write her as being present in Year One is anyone's guess. Did DC actively not want her there? Did Rucka not have any interest in writing her? If so, would it have killed him to throw her onto a few pages and let someone else deal with it? Why didn't anybody tell Abnett?! I hope Wilson uses her, but I don't want the WW book to be hijacked to solve the problems of a character who was accidentally created in another franchise with tenuous connections to Diana's. It shouldn't be dwelt on too much.

    I think the Titans should be removed from the Titans franchise lol. I think that should be her main home even more so than the WW book, but man it sucks to be part of her generation right now.
    At this point, the best thing for the Titans franchise is to reboot it completely and rebuild from the ground up. Also do not rehash old storylines in the rebooted version.

  10. #85
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    At this point, the best thing for the Titans franchise is to reboot it completely and rebuild from the ground up. Also do not rehash old storylines in the rebooted version.
    Getting rid of the Rebirth stuff would be wonderful, but I think the Titans desperately needs to have the Silver Age and NTT runs back in continuity. But it should be shelved until they can figure out what else to do with adult Titans.

    I think stripping any other young team of the name Titans except them would help tremendously. The stigma that only teenage heroes can be Titans has really hurt them, and the team dropped the "Teen" from their name back in the 80s. And if they move forward with the team as adults again, they absolutely cannot rehash the traitor or Trigon plots yet again.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Getting rid of the Rebirth stuff would be wonderful, but I think the Titans desperately needs to have the Silver Age and NTT runs back in continuity. But it should be shelved until they can figure out what else to do with adult Titans.

    I think stripping any other young team of the name Titans except them would help tremendously. The stigma that only teenage heroes can be Titans has really hurt them, and the team dropped the "Teen" from their name back in the 80s. And if they move forward with the team as adults again, they absolutely cannot rehash the traitor or Trigon plots yet again.
    I suspect Teen Titans can't recover its Silver Age and NTT runs. DC probably doesn't want Dick Robin lost his pants

    Seriously speaking, recovering that story would not benefit Donna (other characters like Dick can be benefited). That stories would only make the whole situation of Donna more confusing, while it has no benefit for her, since Titans is not what the pretty popular franchise that was at that time.

    Donna probably needs another reboot (which can happen with Doomsday clock), but she need a better origin this time and more connection with Wonder Woman.

  12. #87
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    I think that erasing Donna Troy should be the very last option, if there is no way to salvage the character. So it's sort of implied, but not desirable, path.

    Continuing on, I think the right path here is to not look so much into Donna's origin, but look at what her unique role and perspective should be within the DCU, and that will depend partly depend on Diana's origin and her relation to Diana.

    I don't think going with the "holds all multiverses/timelines in her head" meta-role is a way forward. She's going to compete with at least one of the Flashes and Booster Gold in that role, and it doesn't really help in writing the character right now. A fictional universe can also only take so many characters holding all the secrets or who are the key to everything before it implodes under its own narrative overload.

    So the path forward is to have a relatively simple origin story (that needs not be told or embellished at once) that provides a unique perspective, and I'd say that the rescue from a fire (either by Diana or some goddess associated with the Amazons), adopted by Hippolyta, and raised among the Amazons is a perfectly sound origin story that gives such a unique perspective and position.

    She is a normal human that has been raised among the Amazons and received their training. That readily tied into Marston's idea of "Amazon training" providing superhuman abilities, but still gives leeway for her being less powerful than Diana (with her blessings and all-Amazon heritage). It can give her the desire of connecting with her old family and fit in with the society of Man's World in a way that Diana doesn't need, while still having the same culture clash that Diana has. It also gives her a different perspective from Cassie Sandsmark.

    Don't make her a "I just want to be normal" character; those are rather boring. But make her a character wanting to fit into society, but due to her morals and her abilities she is continually shown as not fitting. Sort of a Wolverine but from the other direction: Wolverine is too feral to be fit for our civilisation; Donna is too civilised for our civilisation.

  13. #88
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    I suspect Teen Titans can't recover its Silver Age and NTT runs. DC probably doesn't want Dick Robin lost his pants

    Seriously speaking, recovering that story would not benefit Donna (other characters like Dick can be benefited). That stories would only make the whole situation of Donna more confusing, while it has no benefit for her, since Titans is not what the pretty popular franchise that was at that time.

    Donna probably needs another reboot (which can happen with Doomsday clock), but she need a better origin this time and more connection with Wonder Woman.
    Rebooting her yet again isn't going to help. That's exactly how we ran into this problem in the first place. You can't get a better origin than her original one. They've tried and failed numerous times. They need to get it as close to that as possible, because it's the only time she's had an elegant and simple connection to Wonder Woman.

    It would benefit Donna immensely. The broad strokes of her history could be restored. They can keep all the Troia, Darkstar and (God help us) Terry Long stuff, but streamline it down so that she hasn't had any other origin but the original. Who cares about having it make sense with the later origins? Dump them right in the trash where they belong.

    One of the (many) reasons the Titans have been struggling with relevance is that their history was thrown out. Restore it, and then shelve the property until a solid new direction comes along. They can't have a solid future when DC keeps messing with their pasts. They're not individually strong enough as IPs to survive without the major events of their history.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Rebooting her yet again isn't going to help. That's exactly how we ran into this problem in the first place. You can't get a better origin than her original one. They've tried and failed numerous times. They need to get it as close to that as possible, because it's the only time she's had an elegant and simple connection to Wonder Woman.

    It would benefit Donna immensely. The broad strokes of her history could be restored. They can keep all the Troia, Darkstar and (God help us) Terry Long stuff, but streamline it down so that she hasn't had any other origin but the original. Who cares about having it make sense with the later origins? Dump them right in the trash where they belong.

    One of the (many) reasons the Titans have been struggling with relevance is that their history was thrown out. Restore it, and then shelve the property until a solid new direction comes along. They can't have a solid future when DC keeps messing with their pasts. They're not individually strong enough as IPs to survive without the major events of their history.
    That still requires that Silver Age and NTT runs suffer retcons. She can't have her first origin without retcon these runs in many levels.

    At the end, you will only recover fragments of that stories, which will still make Donna's story pretty confusing.


    It will be good to reboot Donna, even it is just to recover her first origin.

    Donna can have an established past (connected mainly with Wonder Woman) and go to a the future with this.
    Last edited by Konja7; 11-01-2018 at 02:56 PM.

  15. #90
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    That still requires that Silver Age and NTT runs suffer retcons.
    If the goal is to just re-capture the broad strokes of the best parts of the era, they wouldn't suffer may retcons. If any at all. Which ones do you think would happen?

    The only major one I can think of is Vic, but...while I'd be fine with him on the JL now, I'd happily ditch his founder status and restore his history with the Titans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    She can't have her first origin without retcon these runs in many levels.
    Everything up until Perez's departure would be unscathed, and that's the main stuff that actually matters. Again, they don't have to concern themselves with anything other than the broad stokes. She already interacted heavily with the Titans of Myth pre-Crisis, so their involvement in her transition to Troia would still be easy to keep.

    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    At the end, you will only recover fragments of that stories, which will still make Donna's story pretty confusing.
    Recovering fragments of a long, contradictory history is the best we can do, I'm afraid.


    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    It will be good to reboot Donna, even it is just to recover her first origin.
    Then you'd better reboot everything else along with her. Because going halfway with their reboots is how DC always runs into problems. That means we'd have to reboot Wonder Woman again too, and nobody wants that, especially not just for the sake of Donna. Reboot's out.

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