Should Christian Frost become the new White Queen?

[victor borkowski]

As an atypical queer man who can pass as straight until I'm somewhere I feel comfortable and my mouth opens and glitter flies everywhere, I find the idea of a silly joke like "The former White Queen/current Black King has a gay brother, and it would be great if he became the new White Queen!" to be pretty much the height of inoffensive.

First, it's a joke. And even if it's not entirely a joke, it's still humorous to THIS gay man.
Second, Christian Frost taking Emma's old title is a legacy post and I approve of more legacy characters in Marvel.
Third, if ANY comic family is gonna take joy in f***ing with gender norms and social conventions about sex and sexuality, it's the Frosts.
Fouth, Christian is fictional and literally cannot be offended by it unless a writer decides he is. For all we know, he's a screaming queen who self-immolates when he sees a fashion faux pas. For all we know, he's a Log Cabin Republican. We just don't know enough to know if he would be offended by it, so let's all chill down some...
Fifth, Christian is in no position to take over ANY leadership role at this point in time, from what we've seen.
Finally, this all just seems like a gay fan (forgive the assumption if I'm wrong) having fun with the possibility of further representation of non-heteronormative sexualities, and seeing other queer fans flying up his ass over semantical differences is just...ridiculous. I'll keep it at 'ridiculous' and call that good.

I am all for the idea of Christian being our new White Queen. I hope he proves to be a non-heteronormative queer man who has been repressed for too long and is free to let his freak flag fly, and I want to see him interact with - not jump right into dating - Bobby Drake more. I think this would help to flesh him out more as a whole person, not JUST a gay man, not JUST a pawn in Emma's games, not JUST a beloved brother, not JUST a mutant, but ALL of that and more. Also, so we can see for ourselves how he identifies, when he isn't pretending to be his shitty dead father or what he thinks will win his shitty dead father's approval.

this. as another gay man on here I agree. And hey, there are plenty of titles at the HFC to go around, who are the current rook, knight, bishop?

[WhiteQueenEmmaFrost]

If the Black King, Queen, Rook, Bishop, Pawn were all black characters this conversation would be completely different. It's the same making a gay man a Queen.

If this was something Marvel actually did by a straight white male writer the conversation wouldn't be so "lol"

[Confuzzled]

If the Black King, Queen, Rook, Bishop, Pawn were all black characters this conversation would be completely different. It's the same making a gay man a Queen.

So... wouldn't that be a good thing then? Media or real life incidents that give similar royalty and high ranking titles to black people whether literally (Black Panther) or figuratively (Empire, the real life crowning of Beyonce by fans etc.) are embraced by the majority of the community.

If this was something Marvel actually did by a straight white male writer the conversation wouldn't be so "lol"

Well obviously coz said straight white male writer doesn't have NewMutant's perspective and experience in life.

[maxhilary]

Well obviously coz said straight white male writer doesn't have NewMutant's perspective and experience in life.

Exactly.

/10char

[BroHomo]

If the Black King, Queen, Rook, Bishop, Pawn were all black characters this conversation would be completely different.

why would it be different lol. If they were 5 bkack named characters in an XBook I'd just be happy for that lol

It's the same making a gay man a Queen.

lol not at all dude there's no historical context etc.

f this was something Marvel actually did by a straight white male writer the conversation wouldn't be so "lol"

Why would if be "lol" ??if it was handled well what's would be the problem.

[WhiteQueenEmmaFrost]

A few of us have said we find it offensive and instead of hearing what we have to say you act like we're wrong and continue to be even more offensive.

Hypocritical intolerant B.S.

[zinderel]

If the Black King, Queen, Rook, Bishop, Pawn were all black characters this conversation would be completely different. It's the same making a gay man a Queen.

If this was something Marvel actually did by a straight white male writer the conversation wouldn't be so "lol"

I do agree that, in the hands of a straight man, this would likely NOT be as harmlessly silly. But since it's just a silly thought exercise by a gay fan, I see no harm in fun.

I think we, as a community, need to stop attacking and cannibalizing our own for offenses we would take personally coming from non-queer folks. Dividing ourselves over semantics isn't helpful to ANYONE. If you are offended by 'queer' or 'queen' because you have been targeted with it as a slur, I understand and am sorry you had that happen to you. I have been there, myself. BELIEVE me.

But many, many of us are NOT offended when those words are used by others in the community, and many, many of us use those terms with great affection amongst ourselves. And we deserve to be able to speak freely, without having to worry that someone might overhear us and hate us for not talking the way they want us to talk, or being ways they don't want us to be. Right? Isn't that the POINT of LGBT+ liberation? We have, most of us, earned that right by being targets ourselves and not letting it damage us by reclaiming the slurs and wearingbthem with pride. Just because I CAN pass for straight if I am cautious doesn't mean I have never been verbally or physically assaulted for my queerness. Just because I can sass with slang with the best of us and embrace my non-heteronormative peers doesn't mean I don't have more to learn, going forward.

I just...getting offended over off-handed banter between 'family' is, to me, about the same as accusing a person of sexual harassment that you just overheard telling a dirty joke in the breakroom. If it isn't directed at you - or anyone else - as a slur, maybe let it roll off your back like water off a duck? We are not attacking you with words, we are not targeting you for discrimination. We are just having fun with 'family', tossing out slang and lingo, and fanboying over a fictional character and what could be, if everyone was a little less uptight about sexuality and self-expression.

Basically, not everything is worth getting offended over, we need to be wise and pick our battles to make sure we don't devalue our communal cause. Unfortunately for everyone, getting offended at the drop of a hat just makes people less likely to take ACTUAL offenses seriously.

Just my two cents.

[Confuzzled]

why would it be different lol. If they were 5 black named characters in an XBook I'd just be happy for that lol

An all-black HFC would be too badass.

[useridgoeshere]

Basically, not everything is worth getting offended over, we need to be wise and pick our battles to make sure we don't devalue our communal cause. Unfortunately for everyone, getting offended at the drop of a hat just makes people less likely to take ACTUAL offenses seriously.

Can you please share the list of things about which folks are allowed to get offended? That'd help a lot.

[FeniSam]

zinderel, you continue to be a breeze of fresh air in this thread and I thank you for that. There is no need to extrapolate this to "What if a cis white male did this?" because it's only a joke by a user, and even then an in-joke for LGBT+ users who happen to find it funny. Pointing fingers is not helpful because not everyone thinks the same way and, of course, not everyone finds the same jokes funny.

On the topic of Christian, do you assume he would immediately side with Emma, or try something different? After a hypothetical healing of his psyche and development as a mutant and as a functional adult not limited by his traumas, of course.

[zinderel]

Can you please share the list of things about which folks are allowed to get offended? That'd help a lot.

No, because that's up to each of us to decide.

Here are a few questions I ask before I complain about being offended:

- Is my getting offended about this and voicing it going to actually accomplish anything in the immediate sense?
- Is my being offended and making sure everyone knows it going to lead for any positive change in the long run?
- Is my being offended and telling everyone about it going to cause infighting in my community at a time when we need to present a united front, or will it just make our community implode with infighting that might do us more ACTUAL harm than a word no one directed at me - or any actual person - personally?
- Is what offends me directed at me, or anyone around me in a negative way?
Am I possibly over-reacting or putting on a display of my own liberal bona fides, or am I ACTUALLY offended? And why?

That list helps me not divide our community over my hurt feelings, so maybe it can help others.

[FeniSam]

No, because that's up to each of us to decide.

Here are a few queations I ask before I complain about being offended:
Is my getting offended about this and voicing it going to actually accomplish anything in the immediate sense?
Is my being offended and making sure everyone knows it going to lead for any positive change in the long run?
Is my being offended and telling everyone about it going to cause infighting in my community at a time when we need to present a united front, or will it just make our community implode with infighting that might do us more ACTUAL harm than a word no one directed at me - or any actual person - personally?
Is what offends me directed at me, or anyone around me in a negative way?
Am I possibly over-reacting or putting on a display of my own liberal bona fides, or am I ACTUALLY offended? And why?

That list helps me not divide our community over my hurt feelings, so maybe it can help others.

[zinderel]

zinderel, you continue to be a breeze of fresh air in this thread and I thank you for that. There is no need to extrapolate this to "What if a cis white male did this?" because it's only a joke by a user, and even then an in-joke for LGBT+ users who happen to find it funny. Pointing fingers is not helpful because not everyone thinks the same way and, of course, not everyone finds the same jokes funny.

On the topic of Christian, do you assume he would immediately side with Emma, or try something different? After a hypothetical healing of his psyche and development as a mutant and as a functional adult not limited by his traumas, of course.

Thank you. I am in complete support of actual offended parties, but so much of the 'I'm offended!' Rhetoric just feels like 'virtue signalling' and not ACTUAL, thoughtful discussion of the nature of offensive words, why they are offensive, what we can do about it. It just feels more like 'we should all jump on the offense bandwagon over this or that thing' rather than a tually tryingvto have a mature discussion.

On topic, I think that, if Emma is honestly trying to do right, even if it clashes with the X-Men's ideals, Christian would support her. I hope, anyhow. I also think that his traumas should never be completely healed, since for many of us, our trauma helped us become who we are.

On the other topic, an all black HFC makes me want to have a Hellfire Club ongoing that comes out semi-annually, like the old X-Men Unlimited title. Just an anthology series of various HFC branches aroundvthe world, showing us what Emma is up to and how she is working for mutant rights her way. Starting with opening a Wakanda branch.

[FeniSam]

Thank you. I am in complete support of actual offended parties, but so much of the 'I'm offended!' Rhetoric just feels like 'virtue signalling' and not ACTUAL, thoughtful discussion of the nature of offensive words, why they are offensive, what we can do about it. It just feels more like 'we should all jump on the offense bandwagon over this or that thing' rather than a tually tryingvto have a mature discussion.

On topic, I think that, if Emma is honestly trying to do right, even if it clashes with the X-Men's ideals, Christian would support her. I hope, anyhow. I also think that his traumas should never be completely healed, since for many of us, our trauma helped us become who we are.

On the other topic, an all black HFC makes me want to have a Hellfire Club ongoing that comes out semi-annually, like the old X-Men Unlimited title. Just an anthology series of various HFC branches aroundvthe world, showing us what Emma is up to and how she is working for mutant rights her way. Starting with opening a Wakanda branch.

Defensiveness is never a good way to start a conversation, because it just leads to confrontation and perpetuates the negative instead of creating anything positive. It's hard finding the common ground, but it's an effort worth taking.

It would make sense for Christian to have her sister's back, as they have been shown as the one person they are loyal to no matter what. Depending on how much they decide to mess with Emma, having him ultimately disagree with her would truly rock things, though that seems unnecessary. Now I'd actually like to get Cordelia back, as family interactions make for amazing X-Stories.

An All-Black HFC would be nice, though it would surely get the writer under fire. Still, it would be nice to see how well Emma's way actually works in the world.

[zinderel]

Defensiveness is never a good way to start a conversation, because it just leads to confrontation and perpetuates the negative instead of creating anything positive. It's hard finding the common ground, but it's an effort worth taking.

EXACTLY! So much of the 'I'm offended' culture just comes across like Laganja's meltdown in Untucked. "I'm mad and hurt by a thing you said, but I can't remember exactly what it was that you did or why it upset me, but I'M FEELING VERY ATTACKED RIGHT NOW!!!!!"

It just rarely feels genuine.

Let me use a real world example of effective use of 'offense'.

I have many friends who are gender non-conforming, trans, bi, gay, lesbian, queer - a rainbow, if you will! - but I do sometimes put my foot in my mouth, because I'm not perfect, after all. I was hanging out with some friends one night, and made an 'It puts the lotion on it's skin or else it gets the hose again' joke, and one of my trans friends (she's MtF) made a face, clearly bothered by my joke, but not speaking up and interrupting things because we were all having a good time and she knew, even though it was hurtful to her, it was not MEANT to be hurtful. I caught that look, though, and realized the context of the joke, the source, the problematic nature of the character quoted, and how it is perceived by the trans community, and IMMEDIATELY apologized. And I am very careful, now, about making that sort of reference. She did not have to trumpet to the world that she was offended, it was plain to see, and when I apologized and she saw it was genuine, we hugged it out and moved on.

Most people I see who proclaim that they are offended by this or that thing/person/statement/word do so in a way that feels like a cry for attention rather than an actual desire for dialogue and understanding. And that pisses me off, since we have historically had to police our words, our sexuality, our selves to avoid being attacked at every angle by actual enemies, by actual aggressors seeking to harm and control us. So yeah...when I see people picking fights with friends, allies, family, 'family' over something innocuous, it gets my dander up.

Pick.
Your.
Battles.

Attacking your fellow queer (or gay, or bi, or whatever label you choose to apply) person from the word go, does nothing but turn people off of your message and make the world at large take us less seriously when we actually have something to speak up about...