Could there be any truth to this?

[starlight25]

User stanlos commented that writer Byrne once said, that there seems to be those in key positions that are very interested in making WW small and less than secondary. Can that be true? I mean what would be the point?, specially now that she has proven her potential once again with her 2017 film. What could anybody gain by doing this?

[Agent Z]

I don't know if there is much truth to it. She could just be another victim of DC's apathy towards characters that aren't Superman or Batman.

[Geraldofrivia]

User stanlos commented that writer Byrne once said, that there seems to be those in key positions that are very interested in making WW small and less than secondary. Can that be true? I mean what would be the point?, specially now that she has proven her potential once again with her 2017 film. What could anybody gain by doing this?

Perez quit DC, disgusted at DC treatment of WW in 1990s.

[kjn]

@starlight25: Do you have the original quote or reference handy? It's kinda tricky to discuss based on a third-hand remembered discussion.

I'm not sure there is any malus against Wonder Woman among DC editors or writers, and I'm not sure one should assume there is without any form of direct evidence or quotations. But going from the various ways that Wonder Woman has been handled, I do think that a lot of them have unexamined biases in the form of puritanism or misogyny, that shaped the way they viewed and imagined Wonder Woman or other female superheroes. At most, I think one can guess that since Wonder Woman has been around for longer, was built around more explicit politics, and has been written by more writers, all those factors can be viewed much more strongly in her.

[SiegePerilous02]

I don't know if there is much truth to it. She could just be another victim of DC's apathy towards characters that aren't Superman or Batman.

They and WB display plenty of apathy towards Superman too.

They pretty much only love Batman, which is why they ran to rush him into live action again at the soonest available opportunity. Which means that they likely don't deliberately make Wonder Woman smaller or have any malice towards her, they just don't know how to consistently capitalize on her potential popularity. She comes a distant second to Batman and his world, same as everyone else (including Superman). With her though, there is perhaps some unconscious sexism in play that wouldn't be in place for other major characters.

[Ascended]

They and WB display plenty of apathy towards Superman too.

They pretty much only love Batman, which is why they ran to rush him into live action again at the soonest available opportunity. Which means that they likely don't deliberately make Wonder Woman smaller or have any malice towards her, they just don't know how to consistently capitalize on her potential popularity. She comes a distant second to Batman and his world, same as everyone else (including Superman). With her though, there is perhaps some unconscious sexism in play that wouldn't be in place for other major characters.

This.

Im sure Diana is a character a lot of management doesn't really "get." She's a complex and unique character, quite different from many of DC's core stable of IP's. Even a lot of creators have talked about how they've struggled to figure her out and find the balance in her many contradictions (warrior/diplomat) and portrayals.

And certainly there have been individuals who have viewed her more poorly than they should due to some degree of sexism, either subconsciously or otherwise. DC's employees aren't necessarily as open minded and noble as the characters they write and manage.

But I do think the biggest problem is apathy. DC and WB simply don't value any IP other than Batman and don't understand the appeal of IP's that arent Batman, which is why you so often see them force other characters into Bat-shapes, like when Barry Allen's mother was killed for "pathos" or even Diana's powerless, super spy era.

And Superman is no better off, really. DC might value him slightly higher than other properties, but he's still down in the muck with everyone else while the Bat, and the Bat alone, is put on a pedestal.

[SiegePerilous02]

They don't value any of their major IPs nearly as much as they should. And the further down you go, the lesser properties are gonna get it even worse.

They blamed the character of Wonder Woman's "difficulty" for why they sat on a film for her for so long, and only just got around to a film series for her. And they are not doing much elsewhere, no cartoons and video games in sight. Superman meanwhile gets more stuff, but it's generally in the hands of creators who are not as excited about him as they are about Batman, and when his media fails to land, they blame the character's "outdatedness" or "lack of appeal" or "difficulty" instead of their own creative decisions.

It's two piles of crap that smell slightly differently, and maybe one pile (Wonder Woman) is a bit bigger. But it's still crap all the same. Some of DC's and WB's creative decisions over the years make me wonder if they really deserve ownership of the characters they have, even if they sometimes get some good creators* in their employ who don't share their apathy.

*Like Jenkins, Nolan and hopefully Wan and Sandberg on the film front, and any number of comics creators who did good work but ultimately don't own the characters.

[starlight25]

This.

Im sure Diana is a character a lot of management doesn't really "get." She's a complex and unique character, quite different from many of DC's core stable of IP's. Even a lot of creators have talked about how they've struggled to figure her out and find the balance in her many contradictions (warrior/diplomat) and portrayals.

And certainly there have been individuals who have viewed her more poorly than they should due to some degree of sexism, either subconsciously or otherwise. DC's employees aren't necessarily as open minded and noble as the characters they write and manage.

But I do think the biggest problem is apathy. DC and WB simply don't value any IP other than Batman and don't understand the appeal of IP's that arent Batman, which is why you so often see them force other characters into Bat-shapes, like when Barry Allen's mother was killed for "pathos" or even Diana's powerless, super spy era.

And Superman is no better off, really. DC might value him slightly higher than other properties, but he's still down in the muck with everyone else while the Bat, and the Bat alone, is put on a pedestal.

But superman is not getting nerfed as often as WW. And his villains are also more respected when writers use them.

Remember when marston died, and they started nerfing her and makig her more concern about getting married and being a housewife than a hero? Or the crap from priest. The writer that got WW shot in his rebirth jl run, and got a nun killed by WW's sword. The same writer that said about WW years ago, that he can't connect with white women in tiaras talking big talk. His fave WW era is the era when she had NO SUPER POWERS. Perez left because of how poorly DC treats WW. I see many examples of DC treating her badly.

[starlight25]

@starlight25: Do you have the original quote or reference handy? It's kinda tricky to discuss based on a third-hand remembered discussion.

I'm not sure there is any malus against Wonder Woman among DC editors or writers, and I'm not sure one should assume there is without any form of direct evidence or quotations. But going from the various ways that Wonder Woman has been handled, I do think that a lot of them have unexamined biases in the form of puritanism or misogyny, that shaped the way they viewed and imagined Wonder Woman or other female superheroes. At most, I think one can guess that since Wonder Woman has been around for longer, was built around more explicit politics, and has been written by more writers, all those factors can be viewed much more strongly in her.

In the thread what the hell is snyder doing, page number 3. There you can read his post where he said that.


When marston died, and they started nerfing her and makig her more concern about getting married and being a housewife than a hero Or the crap from priest. The writer that got WW shot in his rebirth jl run, and got a nun killed by WW's sword. The same writer that said about WW years ago, that he can't connect with white women in tiaras talking big talk. His fave WW era is the era when she had NO SUPER POWERS. Perez left because of how poorly DC treats WW. I see many examples of DC treating her badly.

Here is the interview with priest where he said what i commented earlier.

http://digitalpriest.com/legacy/comics/ww.html

[SiegePerilous02]

But superman is not getting nerfed as often as WW. And his villains are also more respected when writers use them.

Remember when marston died, and they started nerfing her and makig her more concern about getting married and being a housewife than a hero? Or the crap from priest. The writer that got WW shot in his rebirth jl run, and got a nun killed by WW's sword. The same writer that said about WW years ago, that he can't connect with white women in tiaras talking big talk. His fave WW era is the era when she had NO SUPER POWERS. Perez left because of how poorly DC treats WW. I see many examples of DC treating her baly.

They generally only use the same couple of Superman villains, they don't delve into his lore that deeply. He also got turned into a villain along with her in Injustice. And even before the DCEU started to go off the rails, they didn't seem to have any interest in doing more solo films for him and cut out a lot of his scenes in the historic big team up movie with the almighty Batman. They then said JL would be this take's last change to win over the audience, and then proceeded to leave him out of the marketing almost completely, gave him only ten minutes in the movie, and horrible CGI lips. And then blamed the character and the actor for the lack of interest for a new Superman movie, even though he was one of the few things (along with Diana) that audiences seemed to like in that dumpster fire of a movie.

While it's also true they nerf her far more often than him, him being the benchmark for power also makes him the bigger target. Whenever it comes time to prop up another superhero, "they can totally beat up Superman" is the go to trope. Whenever they twist it back around to making him stronger, there is backlash from fanboys.

It cannot be disputed that DC and WB consistently treat Wonder Woman worse, especially in regards to the consistency of her power levels and lack of respect for her villains. But just because Superman gets treated better (and c'mon, that's a very low bar to clear) doesn't mean he generally gets treated well. Both characters deserve far better treatment than WB/DC typically gives them, especially as they are ostensibly 2/3 of their biggest characters. Wonder Woman is the only major IP that is a solo superheroine with her own mythos, and the entire genre as we know it exists because of the success of Superman and the rush to ape said success. But their favorite pet is Batman.

[starlight25]

They generally only use the same couple of Superman villains, they don't delve into his lore that deeply. He also got turned into a villain along with her in Injustice. And even before the DCEU started to go off the rails, they didn't seem to have any interest in doing more solo films for him and cut out a lot of his scenes in the historic big team up movie with the almighty Batman. They then said JL would be this take's last change to win over the audience, and then proceeded to leave him out of the marketing almost completely, gave him only ten minutes in the movie, and horrible CGI lips. And then blamed the character and the actor for the lack of interest for a new Superman movie, even though he was one of the few things (along with Diana) that audiences seemed to like in that dumpster fire of a movie.

While it's also true they nerf her far more often than him, him being the benchmark for power also makes him the bigger target. Whenever it comes time to prop up another superhero, "they can totally beat up Superman" is the go to trope. Whenever they twist it back around to making him stronger, there is backlash from fanboys.

It cannot be disputed that DC and WB consistently treat Wonder Woman worse, especially in regards to the consistency of her power levels and lack of respect for her villains. But just because Superman gets treated better (and c'mon, that's a very low bar to clear) doesn't mean he generally gets treated well. Both characters deserve far better treatment than WB/DC typically gives them, especially as they are ostensibly 2/3 of their biggest characters. Wonder Woman is the only major IP that is a solo superheroine with her own mythos, and the entire genre as we know it exists because of the success of Superman and the rush to ape said success. But their favorite pet is Batman.

WW has been beaten by street levelers too. Sure she ain't the only powerhouse to ever suffer from this. But you get the point. Her character and villains are treated far worse than superman overall. Even after her big hit in 2017, that they didn't expect. They continued to treat her badly. Weaker than sm, seems she can't even fly in the current jl under snyder's crappy hands. And that drowned earth story was supposed to be about her too. LOL, look at how it ended. Even aquaman has had more events centered around his verse than her this decade. Cheetah is still getting beaten by batman( and i have to thank that this time he had a superman suit when he did it) Look at the things i have to "celebrate" because the bar is so low. And Cheetah is supposed to be having a major part in the next WW film. If they will treat her like they treat her in the comics, or how they treated Ares in the first film. I can't expect much.

[kjn]

In the thread what the hell is snyder doing, page number 3. There you can read his post where he said that.

Thanks; didn't help much, sadly.

When marston died, and they started nerfing her and makig her more concern about getting married and being a housewife than a hero Or the crap from priest. The writer that got WW shot in his rebirth jl run, and got a nun killed by WW's sword. The same writer that said about WW years ago, that he can't connect with white women in tiaras talking big talk. His fave WW era is the era when she had NO SUPER POWERS. Perez left because of how poorly DC treats WW. I see many examples of DC treating her badly.

Here is the interview with priest where he said what i commented earlier.

http://digitalpriest.com/legacy/comics/ww.html

I sat down and read it, and I get a wholly different impression of Priest's view of Wonder Woman. Now, it's a bit histrionic in places, but it has some really interesting insights as well, especially once one remembers that Priest is a black American.

E.g., while Priest does say Wonder Woman is boring, but he gives a reason: "DC Comics, perhaps in some effort to protect their corporate interest, has traditionally handcuffed writers and artists on WW". Or as he writes later, "Wonder Woman is not a dull concept, but she has, for very long stretches, been a dull character."

I'm not sure Priest is the right writer for Wonder Woman. But I do think he is onto something here: that Wonder Woman the character suffers from the weight of her IP at DC. The writers are writing about the characters around her because they aren't allowed to say anything interesting about Diana.

[starlight25]

Thanks; didn't help much, sadly.



I sat down and read it, and I get a wholly different impression of Priest's view of Wonder Woman. Now, it's a bit histrionic in places, but it has some really interesting insights as well, especially once one remembers that Priest is a black American.

E.g., while Priest does say Wonder Woman is boring, but he gives a reason: "DC Comics, perhaps in some effort to protect their corporate interest, has traditionally handcuffed writers and artists on WW". Or as he writes later, "Wonder Woman is not a dull concept, but she has, for very long stretches, been a dull character."

I'm not sure Priest is the right writer for Wonder Woman. But I do think he is onto something here: that Wonder Woman the character suffers from the weight of her IP at DC. The writers are writing about the characters around her because they aren't allowed to say anything interesting about Diana.

There are plenty of interesting things to say about her. If they aren't allowed then that is an evidence that people in high postions don't want her character to be more successful.

[SiegePerilous02]

WW has been beaten by street levelers too. Sure she ain't the only powerhouse to ever suffer from this. But you get the point. Her character and villains are treated far worse than superman overall. Even after her big hit in 2017, that they didn't expect. They continued to treat her badly. Weaker than sm, seems she can't even fly in the current jl under snyder's crappy hands. And that drowned earth story was supposed to be about her too. LOL, look at how it ended. Even aquaman has had more events centered around his verse than her this decade. Cheetah is still getting beaten by batman( and i have to thank that this time he had a superman suit when he did it) Look at the things i have to "celebrate" because the bar is so low. And Cheetah is supposed to be having a major part in the next WW film. If they will treat her like they treat her in the comics, or how they treated Ares in the first film. I can't expect much.

I'm not asking you to celebrate the low bar. And I'm right there with you in being pissed that the Cheetah is being poorly utilized in Snyder's run, I'm not even remotely happy that she's been beaten by Batman YET AGAIN. But there is a tendency among Wonder Woman fandom to blame all her problems on the Superman IP and WB's supposed preferential treatment of him. But really, the grass isn't that much greener on the other side.

They need to do things like have her help Superman put the moon back together, and join in on his races with the Flash. And they need to have her dish out some heavy damage to the likes of Brainiac, and while I certainly don't want Superman to job to Cheetah, her damaging him with her claws or some mystic relic she uncovered wouldn't be unwelcome. But they need to treat them BOTH better. Both fanbases are not unjustified in complaining about DC/WB's treatment of these characters. As a fan of both, both fanbases are more alike than I think either would like to admit.

I have no real issues with Ares in the film. It's not like the source material is giving them much to work with. He's always been a generically dull villain that works for the origin story, but not much else. There are however leaks of Gadot walking around with scratch and bite marks on her, and Cheetah lends herself to a more personal, character driven story. We shouldn't use the same criteria for judging the effectiveness of Ares and Cheetah in the films, especially as Barbara Ann is more effective as an emotional threat.

E.g., while Priest does say Wonder Woman is boring, but he gives a reason: "DC Comics, perhaps in some effort to protect their corporate interest, has traditionally handcuffed writers and artists on WW". Or as he writes later, "Wonder Woman is not a dull concept, but she has, for very long stretches, been a dull character."

I'm not sure Priest is the right writer for Wonder Woman. But I do think he is onto something here: that Wonder Woman the character suffers from the weight of her IP at DC. The writers are writing about the characters around her because they aren't allowed to say anything interesting about Diana.

Gotta say, while I'm not that impressed with what he actually did with her, he's not wrong.

Most Wonder Woman runs are frightfully dull.

[starlight25]

I'm not asking you to celebrate the low bar. And I'm right there with you in being pissed that the Cheetah is being poorly utilized in Snyder's run, I'm not even remotely happy that she's been beaten by Batman YET AGAIN. But there is a tendency among Wonder Woman fandom to blame all her problems on the Superman IP and WB's supposed preferential treatment of him. But really, the grass isn't that much greener on the other side.

They need to do things like have her help Superman put the moon back together, and join in on his races with the Flash. And they need to have her dish out some heavy damage to the likes of Brainiac, and while I certainly don't want Superman to job to Cheetah, her damaging him with her claws or some mystic relic she uncovered wouldn't be unwelcome. But they need to treat them BOTH better. Both fanbases are not unjustified in complaining about DC/WB's treatment of these characters. As a fan of both, both fanbases are more alike than I think either would like to admit.

I have no real issues with Ares in the film. It's not like the source material is giving them much to work with. He's always been a generically dull villain that works for the origin story, but not much else. There are however leaks of Gadot walking around with scratch and bite marks on her, and Cheetah lends herself to a more personal, character driven story. We shouldn't use the same criteria for judging the effectiveness of Ares and Cheetah in the films, especially as Barbara Ann is more effective as an emotional threat.



Gotta say, while I'm not that impressed with what he actually did with her, he's not wrong.

Most Wonder Woman runs are frightfully dull.

I don't blame anybody but DC and WB. All the writers that nerf her and her villains, and constantly change her origin and stuff. Like i said before, even aquaman has more exposure in comics like jl and does more than her, he has had more events centered around him too this decade. In his movie he lifted a submarine. WW best strength feat in DCEU so far is lifting a 29 tons tank.

If Cheetah is supposed to be powered up by a God and be able to fight WW. Then she should be treated better. And be able to hang with other heavy hitters including superman. Ares is a God and his power and fight in the film was not amazing, like i would expect from a final battle between 2 Gods. I hope the second film shows us a more powerful WW and cCheetah. Because i'm tired of all the talkig and no actual evidence of any of the things that are mentioned. Powerful this, powerful that. Well then show it for heaven sake.

So there are probably people in DC and WB that don't want to see her shine too much. Based on what priest said.