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  1. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post



    I wasn't actually sure what you were saying that people aren't meant to relate to him as a normal guy,but that consequently setting him outside of the comic reader stereotypes was a problem.




    Prime Tyson? I think this question is a little more difficult than it should be.



    Superman yes, not a high schooler who doesn't know what he is or hasn't thought much about what his future is worth. He leaves Smallville for seven years to think things through. Although he did obviously have powers and that isn't fair no matter how old you are. By Zero Hour they did reduce his strength in youth to correct that. But I think that's different from the contention with him being a "popular football jock," unlesspeople really do mean that losing the idea of Clark the disguise is fine there if he just doesn't have the powers.

    As for the golden age, I actually just meant that as a person, he was into sports. Again I agree that by the time he's Superman, it's difficult for him to tone down his great advantages without taking away the whole point. Although that's not really wose than constantly scooping Lois and taunting her.
    I suppose there's always been an element of Super-dickery there. Siegel & Shuster's Superman was often too much of a bully for my tastes. Weisenger Superman was a mess.

    I think you're right that there's a big difference between Superman and young Clark Kent, which is what I was talking about in terms of relatablity.

    Young Clark Kent should be very reliable. Superman? Not so much. He's meant to be someone we aspire to be, not someone we are.

    By making young Clark a popular high school quarterback, he's much less relatable to the average comic book fan, who do not tend to be the athletic type

  2. #107
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post

    Superman yes, not a high schooler who doesn't know what he is or hasn't thought much about what his future is worth. He leaves Smallville for seven years to think things through. Although he did obviously have powers and that isn't fair no matter how old you are. By Zero Hour they did reduce his strength in youth to correct that. But I think that's different from the contention with him being a "popular football jock," unlesspeople really do mean that losing the idea of Clark the disguise is fine there if he just doesn't have the powers.

    As for the golden age, I actually just meant that as a person, he was into sports. Again I agree that by the time he's Superman, it's difficult for him to tone down his great advantages without taking away the whole point. Although that's not really wose than constantly scooping Lois and taunting her.
    Personally, I never thought the citadel got enough respect. It worked because it was just outside Metropolis as opposed to the arctic. In terms of his power levels post Crisis, my issue with them was they were never really consistent. Byrne actually left a lot of open space for some adventures as a kid and DC closed off the possibility on purpose. The only thing we knew for sure was that he didn't discover flight until about 18. Past that, it was pretty open. He could have been bending bars at six for all we know and just didn't tell his parents. There were a lot of story possibilities they denied themselves. I think once Smallville hit, they realized they had denied themselves some tie in marketing.
    Now listen to me, Clark! This great strength of yours--you've got to hide it from people or they'll be scared of you!

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I suppose there's always been an element of Super-dickery there. Siegel & Shuster's Superman was often too much of a bully for my tastes.
    I always see Siegel and Shuster 's Superman as part of the time he originated.
    They were two Jews in the 30s. There was nothing their creation could do to make things worse, because things were already heading from bad to worse world wide.
    Acting as a bully in this context is for me no big problem. Without that context it's a different question

  4. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stardust View Post
    I always see Siegel and Shuster 's Superman as part of the time he originated.
    They were two Jews in the 30s. There was nothing their creation could do to make things worse, because things were already heading from bad to worse world wide.
    Acting as a bully in this context is for me no big problem. Without that context it's a different question
    I think we always need to try to be our best selves. It's one of the aspects I love most about Superman. He almost always acts this way. I love the more rough n' tumble Superman of Seigel & Shuster, but that's because his more modest power set made his bullying more forgivable, which I think Morrison updated wonderfully in the New 52.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I think we always need to try to be our best selves. It's one of the aspects I love most about Superman. He almost always acts this way. I love the more rough n' tumble Superman of Seigel & Shuster, but that's because his more modest power set made his bullying more forgivable, which I think Morrison updated wonderfully in the New 52.
    Here's the thing though. The superhero genre is fundamentally a violent one. Realistically speaking, regardless of how they act or how they are perceived, all superheroes are 'bullies'. Some might even go so far to say fascist. So in that regard, Superman being a 'bully' or acting tough or aggressive with criminals doesn't bother me at all. But the one aspect I do think needs to be addressed is Superman developing his own sense of restraint with regards to meddling with the affairs of humanity. Morrison handled this pretty well in the scene where we see Superman at an early Justice League meeting wondering whether the League should make state-level intervention and the others, particularly Batman, shoot him down. It's one thing for Clark to act like an out-and-out vigilante when he's at his Golden Age power levels...quiet a different matter when he's got God-like powers and is literally capable of taking over the world in a about a day.

    But I don't think Superman necessarily needs to always appear as this kind-hearted soul who isn't ready to use force if necessary in the defense of innocents or to take down really dangerous criminals. I actually don't even mind him toying around with minor criminals and subtly toying up the fear factor to discourage crime in general in Metropolis, so that he can focus on other stuff.

  6. #111
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    Personally, I never thought the citadel got enough respect. It worked because it was just outside Metropolis as opposed to the arctic. In terms of his power levels post Crisis, my issue with them was they were never really consistent. Byrne actually left a lot of open space for some adventures as a kid and DC closed off the possibility on purpose. The only thing we knew for sure was that he didn't discover flight until about 18. Past that, it was pretty open. He could have been bending bars at six for all we know and just didn't tell his parents. There were a lot of story possibilities they denied themselves. I think once Smallville hit, they realized they had denied themselves some tie in marketing.
    It's partly a result of growing up with the Arctic fortress I'm sure, but I prefer the locations elsewhere. The ice cold, crystalline aesthetic doesn't line up with what you'd imagine as an idealized retreat whether you go by a Kryptonian upbringing or a human upbringing. Jurgens largely corrected that but in the classic depictions we always fall back on, it feels like a big blank space used for work and not relaxation. The citadel had a very distinct look built on the idea that it's actually a kind of home opposed to that.

    Outside of Metropolis is too close for my tastes, especially if you want to make it visually dynamic and have a big honking door, which I never really do. I like South America for the location as it gives a bonus of that eerie "the Mayans were right" vibe. But then they made it all crystal inside anyway. I would bring back the citadel and still include that door, but make the location unknown to even the reader.

    Byrne's Superman was roughly as strong as Spider-Man by the time he was eight, but they changed that. I don't mind either way but if you put him in an orphanage where everyone sees him, being as strong as a grown man probably wouldn't get overlooked.

  7. #112
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    I quite like what was done with the 86 reboot. I like making Krypton actually alien, emphasizing Clark's human side, limiting his powers to 'moving a mountain,' which is already so ridiculously strong there's really no need for him to be even stronger, the changes to Lex, Lois, ect. The only things I'd change would be certain individual stories like the Big Barda brainwashing story and not having things revert in the 2000s.

  8. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    Here's the thing though. The superhero genre is fundamentally a violent one. Realistically speaking, regardless of how they act or how they are perceived, all superheroes are 'bullies'. Some might even go so far to say fascist. So in that regard, Superman being a 'bully' or acting tough or aggressive with criminals doesn't bother me at all. But the one aspect I do think needs to be addressed is Superman developing his own sense of restraint with regards to meddling with the affairs of humanity. Morrison handled this pretty well in the scene where we see Superman at an early Justice League meeting wondering whether the League should make state-level intervention and the others, particularly Batman, shoot him down. It's one thing for Clark to act like an out-and-out vigilante when he's at his Golden Age power levels...quiet a different matter when he's got God-like powers and is literally capable of taking over the world in a about a day.

    But I don't think Superman necessarily needs to always appear as this kind-hearted soul who isn't ready to use force if necessary in the defense of innocents or to take down really dangerous criminals. I actually don't even mind him toying around with minor criminals and subtly toying up the fear factor to discourage crime in general in Metropolis, so that he can focus on other stuff.
    Yeah, there will always be an element of 'might makes right' in all action-adventure story telling. It is a tricky balance sometimes. I think it was Joe Casey that tried to do a straight up pacifist Superman in the pre-Infinite Crisis era that I thought was fascinating in that he never had Clark resort to throwing a punch. Obviously, that isn't practical long-term. We want to see Superman punching baddies into the sun.

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