Do you think Gwen Stacy should ever return?

[WebLurker]

Thanks for the run down.

No prob. Glad you found it interesting.

10char

[Frontier]

I'll take your word for it, but obviously this isn't MJ's classic, most well known archetype. Meanwhile 616 Gwen actually was a science major, so there's not even remotely as much of a character shift purely for her between comic page and screen in this example. Some story beats may have been borrowed from the Ultimate comics concerning MJ but character wise, Gwen is Gwen.

She was a science major but she was never shown to be particularly science savvy or interested in the subject until Greg Weisman took that trait and ran with it in the Spectacular cartoon.

[marhawkman]

She was a science major but she was never shown to be particularly science savvy or interested in the subject until Greg Weisman took that trait and ran with it in the Spectacular cartoon.

Even so you can't really have that as something that would prevent them from telling stories with her as a tech geek or something, especially alt-us...

[Celgress]

Even so you can't really have that as something that would prevent them from telling stories with her as a tech geek or something, especially alt-us...

I chose to make her an inspiring MD in my fanfic (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1276833...wined-Destines) so she and Peter aren't exactly the same science-wise; one being more into bio-medicine the other being more tech savvy.

[Zeitgeist]

She was a science major but she was never shown to be particularly science savvy or interested in the subject until Greg Weisman took that trait and ran with it in the Spectacular cartoon.

Even so you can't really have that as something that would prevent them from telling stories with her as a tech geek or something, especially alt-us...

Yeah, it's easily a precedent.

[AngelJD]

Thinking back with the many clone sagas involving new versions of Gwen brought to life (only to die much later even if we might like the version) and how she was a supposedly a 'biochemist' genius (why she was in Peter's and Warren's class) we really don't see that in play often (Peter is super smart and often that is showcased but for side characters talents are mentioned and come and go but rarely used due to being a side character vs the main hero).

Part of me feels if there is ever another type of 'Clone saga' tale and it involves another version of a scientific talented/skilled Gwen without her memories altered brought to life in the Multiverse and once more involves 'clone degeneration/carron virus/some sort of virus infection/ ect then I feel THAT would be a perfect opportunity to showcase the 'skill' in biochemistry she and some other versions was mentioned to have.
That Warren for all his pride and claims of being the best always failed in that area with years of failure and same applies to Peter. However the new Gwen see's the flaw and finally showcases the mentioned talent creating the cure, healing herself, and outdoing Warren in a matter of hours vs the years he put in (with extra motivation that it's her life on the line and others).

Other matters of bio-chesity is if Peter undergoes another Man-Spider event Gwen using biochemistry once more being a master in study chemical processes and chemical transformations in living organisms including DNA, proteins and cell parts also picks up where Peter left off when he no longer in the right mind batting the spider takeover changes.

Other possibilities is after seeing so many 'Gwenom/Anti-Gwenom/Carnagwen' fanarts is that a part of a symbiote is taken to Connors lab where she is a assistant and finding some strange and new readings tries to get a closer look at the symbiote piece with new technology and a batch of chemicals created to study how the symbiotes biology adapts and reacts but an explosion cracks the holding and a glass piece that it was hanging onto cuts Gwen and it enters Gwen's bloodstream from the cut. Gwen unaware as the chaos happening and her recoverings from the damage cuts, impact, and scratches due to the blast and the ringing in her ears. Slowly merging with her blood and antibodies without her and others knowing. After when she does know she begins studying herself much like Peter had to study his own transformed biology after the spider bite and see what was now capable and further alterations.

If not then well as Celgress wrote the field of 'science' is so wide ranging and unspecific that there can be tons of subfields that Gwen might be able to perform that falls under 'science'. Areas that Gwen can be shown to excel at and not Peter and visa versa rounding and covering different scientific bases (plus a bit more reasonable and reality that Peter so happens doesn't instantly know everything as plot demands but that Gwen, MJ, and some others can instead showcase and provide support and skills he can't do or do as well as in the past Peter seemed to be able to do everything as a master 'just because').

That was in the past and still is a often eye rolling solution for main heroes. How do you know how to do sos and so?
Because I'm BATMAN...I mean Spider-man! (His beginnings with him just been a high schooler age kid yet mastering uber levels somehow in engineering to make his web shooter, chemistry to make the webbing, and master tailoring all while being dirt poor but able to still make this stuff as a high schooler.)

This is something that was covered a bit first in the Sam Raimi movies that he was a master tailor yet while very smart he had organic web shooters due to the writers didn't feel at that level and funding Peter would be able to pull that off fully or logically. That made some fans angry.
Then in the MCU Peter made a working version 1 web shooter and chemical webbing and when we first see him he plans to use or find workable parts inside some stuff he found being tossed out. Yet while super smart in those areas of science he was not a tailor nor had funds with Tony giving him the more costly and advanced suit and using Peter's chemicals and first model some upgrades. Peter still shown to be very smart and talent in the field of science and attends a school for scientific geniuses.
By not making him a master of everything it makes him more human plus allows opportunities for others to shine and show individual merits/skills that makes his allies become a team effort supporting each other.

[Frontier]

Even so you can't really have that as something that would prevent them from telling stories with her as a tech geek or something, especially alt-us...

I mean, obviously they leaned into it in adaptions, but I think it's incorrect to associate it so much with comic Gwen when it was never all that much a big part of her character.

[marhawkman]

By not making him a master of everything it makes him more human plus allows opportunities for others to shine and show individual merits/skills that makes his allies become a team effort supporting each other.

That reminds me of one of the cooler things about the 90s spider-man series, Pete wasn't the best at everything! He often had to get technical assistance from others.

[jackolover]

You’d have to bring back the whole Stacy family, mother and all. All New - All Different (it seems like the old 616, but it’s different) makes it possible to bring back whoever you like. But in ANAD you’d have to have a compelling reason why she exists now. The 8 months missing at the start of ANAD would be why Peter and Gwen broke up, and why Peter and MJ didn’t get together.

Gwen could just pop-up in a story now, and they, Peter and Gwen, could just recall why they weren’t together, and it will have something to do with Peters huge change of fortune to be a CEO of Parker Industries. Gwen hates Spider-Man. She always did. If Peter had hired Spidey to be his bodyguard, Gwen would have disowned him, and live another life. That would be the drama, if Peter and Gwen met again. I don’t think they’d like each other anymore.

But seeing as how Peters fortunes have changed, and he lost his company, since the start of ANAD, a chance meeting between Gwen and Peter may just spark the embers of sentimentality into flames. I don’t know if ANAD would wipe out any knowledge of Sins Past? But certainly Norman Osborn wouldn’t know Peters identity as Spider-Man these days, so Gwen should be safe.

I don’t think there could be any “happy ever after” for Peter Parker’s family if he married Gwen. Remember House of M Spider-Man (that was another ANAD)? Peter murdered Gwen and his child when he went crazy. I think that’s probably why Marvel could never let MJ stay married to Peter. You think about it. With the Green Goblin and Dr Octopus, they are eventually going to hound Peter to distraction and it would end up with his family dead. Peter can’t help but drop everything, family commitments included, to go battle the Goblin or Octavius and that leads to disaster. It’s best Peter stays single. But the romantic element that is Gwen Stacy could not be denied. If she came back, sparks would fly, and the tension of having Peter dance around avoiding commitment would be highly charged.

[AngelJD]

You’d have to bring back the whole Stacy family, mother and all. All New - All Different (it seems like the old 616, but it’s different) makes it possible to bring back whoever you like. But in ANAD you’d have to have a compelling reason why she exists now. The 8 months missing at the start of ANAD would be why Peter and Gwen broke up, and why Peter and MJ didn’t get together.

Gwen could just pop-up in a story now, and they, Peter and Gwen, could just recall why they weren’t together, and it will have something to do with Peters huge change of fortune to be a CEO of Parker Industries. Gwen hates Spider-Man. She always did. If Peter had hired Spidey to be his bodyguard, Gwen would have disowned him, and live another life. That would be the drama, if Peter and Gwen met again. I don’t think they’d like each other anymore.

But seeing as how Peters fortunes have changed, and he lost his company, since the start of ANAD, a chance meeting between Gwen and Peter may just spark the embers of sentimentality into flames. I don’t know if ANAD would wipe out any knowledge of Sins Past? But certainly Norman Osborn wouldn’t know Peters identity as Spider-Man these days, so Gwen should be safe.

I don’t think there could be any “happy ever after” for Peter Parker’s family if he married Gwen. Remember House of M Spider-Man (that was another ANAD)? Peter murdered Gwen and his child when he went crazy. I think that’s probably why Marvel could never let MJ stay married to Peter. You think about it. With the Green Goblin and Dr Octopus, they are eventually going to hound Peter to distraction and it would end up with his family dead. Peter can’t help but drop everything, family commitments included, to go battle the Goblin or Octavius and that leads to disaster. It’s best Peter stays single. But the romantic element that is Gwen Stacy could not be denied. If she came back, sparks would fly, and the tension of having Peter dance around avoiding commitment would be highly charged.

There are a few things here that has me wishing for further elaboration. Such as the 'just because one version did thus all versions must be' mindset. To me each version is there own character and choices.

Also according to the last couple of issues that 616 Gwen was in when she was alive she no longer hated or blamed Spider-man for her father's death but it was still difficult to be around him due to self guilt for blaming him. In the pre story to Clone Conspiracy we find out (now written in) that she died while learning that Peter was Spider-man she was heartbroken that she was never told.
Later during Clone Conspiracy to a new Gwen Stacy version was born with her memories while also her own version she was still the closest version to v1 616 Gwen due to unaltered memories. She tells Peter she didn't hate him but was upset for not being trusted but with some time she understood.

On 617 which was a copy 616 till one change that happened (after Gwen's father died but before she would die) caused a domino effect that in the end had that version of Gwen live somehow. We don't know what her situation with Peter/Spider-man is but on her world we find out that she is a superhero, the symbiote's partner, and her world's best forensic detective. Now I don't know the dominos, thinking, and choices that altered to say if however that 617 Gwen and 616 Gwen would have similar paths despite being one and the same till one event.

Also what issue did House of M Peter (I'm assuming there are different House of M world one such as Secret Wars one and other What If's built on House of M storylines) kill Gwen and their child?
I recall one badly written 'What If House of M' tale that had Gwen in the end trying to kill herself to save the world from self destruction (due to originally being dead but now alive once more which for some reason was causing the Earth to be in chaos and destruction however the character Hawkeye was the same way being dead and then alive agian the same way and nothing bad happened with his resurrection so major plot hole story but nice art).

[jackolover]

There are a few things here that has me wishing for further elaboration. Such as the 'just because one version did thus all versions must be' mindset. To me each version is there own character and choices.

Also according to the last couple of issues that 616 Gwen was in when she was alive she no longer hated or blamed Spider-man for her father's death but it was still difficult to be around him due to self guilt for blaming him. In the pre story to Clone Conspiracy we find out (now written in) that she died while learning that Peter was Spider-man she was heartbroken that she was never told.
Later during Clone Conspiracy to a new Gwen Stacy version was born with her memories while also her own version she was still the closest version to v1 616 Gwen due to unaltered memories. She tells Peter she didn't hate him but was upset for not being trusted but with some time she understood.

On 617 which was a copy 616 till one change that happened (after Gwen's father died but before she would die) caused a domino effect that in the end had that version of Gwen live somehow. We don't know what her situation with Peter/Spider-man is but on her world we find out that she is a superhero, the symbiote's partner, and her world's best forensic detective. Now I don't know the dominos, thinking, and choices that altered to say if however that 617 Gwen and 616 Gwen would have similar paths despite being one and the same till one event.

Also what issue did House of M Peter (I'm assuming there are different House of M world one such as Secret Wars one and other What If's built on House of M storylines) kill Gwen and their child?
I recall one badly written 'What If House of M' tale that had Gwen in the end trying to kill herself to save the world from self destruction (due to originally being dead but now alive once more which for some reason was causing the Earth to be in chaos and destruction however the character Hawkeye was the same way being dead and then alive agian the same way and nothing bad happened with his resurrection so major plot hole story but nice art).

Thanks for your many references to Gwen Stacy.

The House of M series I refer to, is one of the mini-series published during the 2005 House of M event.

As to what Gwen’s mind-set towards Peter before her death at the hands of the Green Goblin, there were a lot of issues I didn’t have from Issue #80 to #121, so Gwen could very well have tempered her dislike or blame of Spider-Man. That may be significant.

What I find more important though is the pettiness that existed in Gwen about her relationship with Peter. She sutained a guilting of Peter the whole time, keeping Peter in a constant state of imbalance. (Not that Peter didn’t deserve it, because Peter dumped all his family and friends to fight any jaywalker he came across, and that does make people annoyed). It is this annoying quality of Gwen to punish Peter for long periods that gives me the impression Peter would be too resentful that Gwen never supported him, or Spider-Man, and that can’t be reconciled. MJ on the other hand, supported Peter through thick and thin. I just think Gwen’s personality and judgemental approach to relationships pushed Peter and Gwen apart. Relationships are supposed to be enjoyable. Peter and Gwen hated each other just from what was on the page. Peter kept up an unrealistic affection for Gwen when he should have dumped her poisonous a**.

[Probalus]

^uh... Peter did go crazy in the House of M miniseries but definitely did not kill Gwen there. The mini-series sort of ended in a happily ever after way in fact (which contradicts the actual House of M events btw)

The other insane part about that event is that 616 Peter is supposed to remember all of the years he was married to Gwen in that dimension and having a kid with her...

[CrimsonEchidna]

Refining what I initially posted, I think unless there's a full on reboot all together, the ship has kind of sailed.Especially post-One More Day and post-Clone Conspiracy.

[AngelJD]

Gwen wasn't killed in the House of M series. In fact her, Captain Stacy, and Uncle Ben headed into danger when they discovered something was wrong with Peter armed with web shooters.

Also it's best to read those issues as version one 616 Gwen was transforming till her death ended her personal growth path (that we know of as who knows what the future holds) and 616 MJ wasn't that great during those issues till one moment in time began her own developments. We have to be careful when writing about characters if what we have to based on is incomplete, another Earth versions that might be similar of from copy Earth's of 616 we can take estimations but nothing sturdy as each version is their own character/person and walk their own paths) or a moment in time that might be real during such time but later not so by the process of a character journey and developments that a writer or writers might give and hopefully well written.

I'm a fan of many MJ versions and of the current MJ of 616 but her first issues that she was in I was shocked HOW different she was when reading them. I didn't like her (plus a few others that in time would have time for growth and different presentation writing styles but sticking to just MJ here).
MJ cared only about herself and didn't have much substance till Conway began her developments. MJ headed into danger because she thought it was cool and not to assist others acting irresponsibility. When Peter was missing and later a few others and many was worrying MJ only cared about her paycheck. Later it was written by other writers this toxic 'Me Only' personality and party girl mentality MJ had was influenced by her mother's tragic life and upon her death MJ decided to care only about herself and fun and not be in a relationship.
Than when Gwen died it was a slap to her psyche about how the party will end one day and the people she takes for granted might not be around tomorrow. MJ was hurt by Gwen's death and it was her starting path to development from selfishness as despite them have a rivalry they were also friends and MJ thought the whole Betty and Veronica relationship they had would always be around. MJ tried to keep up her party girl attitude but found it had died with Gwen. When she went to see Peter it was because not only did she know he would be hurting but equally she was in turn from Gwen's death. Her closing the door and be with Peter not for the sake of fun or relationship but because of empathy beyond her own (moving beyond selfishness and to others now) and grief they were both feeling and they handled it on that night being together even after Peter in grief latched out at her. Peter didn't think much of her as a person growing aggravated with her at that point in Spider-man history but her closing the door and staying with him was her own begin journey into a new and better selfless woman Peter could love.

A common theme is death and how they affect the living. Likewise Gwen was effect by her father's death and in grief latched out at Spider-man however taking time to grieve with family in London she came to understand she was wrong. When she returned Gwen was more emotional HOWEVER more wise about the people around her knowing they might also one day be gone unless she did something. Gwen went back to Peter, tried to have Flash and Peter break bread (which didn't happen till Gwen's death) but when doing so MJ tried to make the situation worse by implying Flash and Gwen was something more to Peter, Gwen worried about the one's she love more then herself and her actions. Gwen spoke up for Peter against Flash after Flash insulted Peter one to many times, Gwen also spoke her mind to Aunt May feeling how Aunt May treated Peter wasn't good for him then was worried sick for Aunt May when she disappeared blaming herself and investigated and headed to danger at the first clue to Aunt May's whereabouts, Gwen would die with her last thoughts till Clone Conspiracy showed otherwise by a new writer worrying for Harry who drug overdosed. The Gwen that died was a different Gwen then who first appeared just as 616 MJ of today was a different woman then how she first began. Character development or derailment is subjective but it seems for Peter, MJ, and Gwen a major death shock them to their core in some form and reforged them after grieving.

While 616 Gwen did blame Spider-man needing somebody to blame after her father died she came to understand she was wrong and felt responsible and shame for doing so. On Earth-65 where a version of Gwen Stacy was bitten by a spider and became Spider-Woman when that version of Peter died Aunt May in greif put blame on SPider-WOman needing somebody to put the blame on and after some time to grieve immediately came to regret it as she told Gwen. It's a common poisonous reaction but human that all characters and real life react in great grief and personal pain is to latch out. Later upon being reforged into a new person after grieving come to acknowledge and bear responsibility for the actions and words said (unless it's a villain then they stick with blaming).

[jackolover]

Gwen wasn't killed in the House of M series. In fact her, Captain Stacy, and Uncle Ben headed into danger when they discovered something was wrong with Peter armed with web shooters.

Also it's best to read those issues as version one 616 Gwen was transforming till her death ended her personal growth path (that we know of as who knows what the future holds) and 616 MJ wasn't that great during those issues till one moment in time began her own developments. We have to be careful when writing about characters if what we have to based on is incomplete, another Earth versions that might be similar of from copy Earth's of 616 we can take estimations but nothing sturdy as each version is their own character/person and walk their own paths) or a moment in time that might be real during such time but later not so by the process of a character journey and developments that a writer or writers might give and hopefully well written.

I'm a fan of many MJ versions and of the current MJ of 616 but her first issues that she was in I was shocked HOW different she was when reading them. I didn't like her (plus a few others that in time would have time for growth and different presentation writing styles but sticking to just MJ here).
MJ cared only about herself and didn't have much substance till Conway began her developments. MJ headed into danger because she thought it was cool and not to assist others acting irresponsibility. When Peter was missing and later a few others and many was worrying MJ only cared about her paycheck. Later it was written by other writers this toxic 'Me Only' personality and party girl mentality MJ had was influenced by her mother's tragic life and upon her death MJ decided to care only about herself and fun and not be in a relationship.
Than when Gwen died it was a slap to her psyche about how the party will end one day and the people she takes for granted might not be around tomorrow. MJ was hurt by Gwen's death and it was her starting path to development from selfishness as despite them have a rivalry they were also friends and MJ thought the whole Betty and Veronica relationship they had would always be around. MJ tried to keep up her party girl attitude but found it had died with Gwen. When she went to see Peter it was because not only did she know he would be hurting but equally she was in turn from Gwen's death. Her closing the door and be with Peter not for the sake of fun or relationship but because of empathy beyond her own (moving beyond selfishness and to others now) and grief they were both feeling and they handled it on that night being together even after Peter in grief latched out at her. Peter didn't think much of her as a person growing aggravated with her at that point in Spider-man history but her closing the door and staying with him was her own begin journey into a new and better selfless woman Peter could love.

A common theme is death and how they affect the living. Likewise Gwen was effect by her father's death and in grief latched out at Spider-man however taking time to grieve with family in London she came to understand she was wrong. When she returned Gwen was more emotional HOWEVER more wise about the people around her knowing they might also one day be gone unless she did something. Gwen went back to Peter, tried to have Flash and Peter break bread (which didn't happen till Gwen's death) but when doing so MJ tried to make the situation worse by implying Flash and Gwen was something more to Peter, Gwen worried about the one's she love more then herself and her actions. Gwen spoke up for Peter against Flash after Flash insulted Peter one to many times, Gwen also spoke her mind to Aunt May feeling how Aunt May treated Peter wasn't good for him then was worried sick for Aunt May when she disappeared blaming herself and investigated and headed to danger at the first clue to Aunt May's whereabouts, Gwen would die with her last thoughts till Clone Conspiracy showed otherwise by a new writer worrying for Harry who drug overdosed. The Gwen that died was a different Gwen then who first appeared just as 616 MJ of today was a different woman then how she first began. Character development or derailment is subjective but it seems for Peter, MJ, and Gwen a major death shock them to their core in some form and reforged them after grieving.

While 616 Gwen did blame Spider-man needing somebody to blame after her father died she came to understand she was wrong and felt responsible and shame for doing so. On Earth-65 where a version of Gwen Stacy was bitten by a spider and became Spider-Woman when that version of Peter died Aunt May in greif put blame on SPider-WOman needing somebody to put the blame on and after some time to grieve immediately came to regret it as she told Gwen. It's a common poisonous reaction but human that all characters and real life react in great grief and personal pain is to latch out. Later upon being reforged into a new person after grieving come to acknowledge and bear responsibility for the actions and words said (unless it's a villain then they stick with blaming).

From Peters reaction, post-HOM, he was pretty traumatised by it because he remembered it as being real, not another alternative world Gwen Stacy. Peters experience of HOM was that if Gwen (and uncle Ben) didn’t die, how perfect it would be if Gwen and Peter got married and started a family. The answer is it would end in a nightmare.