Do you think Gwen Stacy should ever return?

[LK3185]

True, but the way I look at it is with Spider-Gwen around 616 Gwen will never become more likable than her anyway. So, why not give 616 Gwen a role other than superheroine or nice character in general?

Yeah, i get that, I just think most people would prefer Gwen around to be potential love interest and likable.. cause you could do other scenarios with other characters more easily. Your scenario would I feel cause backlash but also be a pretty good story lol.

[bob.schoonover]

True, but the way I look at it is with Spider-Gwen around 616 Gwen will never become more likable than her anyway. So, why not give 616 Gwen a role other than superheroine or nice character in general?

I mean this mostly jokingly, but they could bring Gwen back for a little bit, then pull a Superman Reborn and just merge Gwen and Spider-Gwen into one person (powers of Spider-Gwen, 616 personal history of Gwen, new "origin" that ties her powers to her resurrection, doesn't live in a separate dimension).

[Celgress]

I mean this mostly jokingly, but they could bring Gwen back for a little bit, then pull a Superman Reborn and just merge Gwen and Spider-Gwen into one person (powers of Spider-Gwen, 616 personal history of Gwen, new "origin" that ties her powers to her resurrection, doesn't live in a separate dimension).

This is the option I would actually use in a perfect world. However, the above scenario might very well generate a fan backlash for a variety of reasons (examples would likely include hardcore MJ/Peter shippers feeling "cheated" and hardcore fans of 65 Gwen feeling their character has been "butchered").

[bob.schoonover]

This is the option I would actually use in a perfect world. However, the above scenario might very well generate a fan backlash for a variety of reasons (examples would likely include hardcore MJ/Peter shippers feeling "cheated" and hardcore fans of 65 Gwen feeling their character has been "butchered").

You're probably not wrong. I feel like a quick, clean, nonsensical explanation is always best for huge status changes - there was a Crisis, Superboy Punch!, time is broken, Scarlet Witch snapped her fingers, etc. Not to get wildly off track, but one sees a certain amount of "this could be the start of the story where OMD is overturned" whenever MJ or Mephisto (or, really, any red headed character) appear in a Spider comic (or Spidey appears in theirs, or Spider appears in Dr Strange, or ...), so overturning OMD never really dies in the fans' minds. If, instead of a deal with the devil, Marvel had gone with something unclever but irreversible (MJ since ASM 258 was a Skrull or a clone and the real MJ has been in a stasis pod; Kang erased all redheads from the Marvel universe and no one remembers any of them; Peter was about to sacrifice himself to stop the overheating Cosmic Cube from destroying reality, but MJ jumped on it, removing herself and the cube from existence), I think the long tail of anger probably would have subsided by now. Probably.

[Celgress]

You're probably not wrong. I feel like a quick, clean, nonsensical explanation is always best for huge status changes - there was a Crisis, Superboy Punch!, time is broken, Scarlet Witch snapped her fingers, etc. Not to get wildly off track, but one sees a certain amount of "this could be the start of the story where OMD is overturned" whenever MJ or Mephisto (or, really, any red headed character) appear in a Spider comic (or Spidey appears in theirs, or Spider appears in Dr Strange, or ...), so overturning OMD never really dies in the fans' minds. If, instead of a deal with the devil, Marvel had gone with something unclever but irreversible (MJ since ASM 258 was a Skrull or a clone and the real MJ has been in a stasis pod; Kang erased all redheads from the Marvel universe and no one remembers any of them; Peter was about to sacrifice himself to stop the overheating Cosmic Cube from destroying reality, but MJ jumped on it, removing herself and the cube from existence), I think the long tail of anger probably would have subsided by now. Probably.

Too bad Loki was out of commission at the time of OMD. He did owe Peter a "favor". I can see him rearanging reality in the fashion you briefly outlined.

Loki- *after examining Peter's entire history* - "Hmmm, I see."

Peter - "What do you see? Is there a way to save Aunt May?"

Loki - "Of course, there is always a way. However, the event which ultimately set her death in motion occurred many years ago, as you would understand time. If I weave that loose thread back into the tapestry of your life there will be serious consequences beyond your Aunt never having been shot tonight."

Peter - "I don't care, just do it."

Loki *grins mischievously* - "As you wish." *he claps his hands*

Reality changes so Peter managed to save Gwen on the bridge and thus Harry never died or became Green Goblin II. Much Later Gwen as Ghost Spider with help from Harry talked Peter out of joining Stark's side during the Civil War.

[Minerboh]

Didn't the Ultimate Universe dealt with something like that? Gwen killed by Carnage but later she returned (not as a clone IF i remember correctly).

[LK3185]

Didn't the Ultimate Universe dealt with something like that? Gwen killed by Carnage but later she returned (not as a clone IF i remember correctly).

I think her molecular copy returns her as Gwen Carnage.. Not the clone but the original Gwen. Then Venom basically eats Carnage off of Gwen lol.

I read it recently and it still confuses me.

[Inversed]

Didn't the Ultimate Universe dealt with something like that? Gwen killed by Carnage but later she returned (not as a clone IF i remember correctly).

She was cloned by Ock during the Clone Saga, but because she still had some of Carnage on her body, she became Carnage. She was contained for a while, then during War Of The Symbiotes, Venom essentially removed all traces of Carnage from her. Then Tony examined her and realized that pretty much everything about her, mind and body, was exactly like the original Gwen, so she might as well just be the original Gwen.

That's alot of different plot points that would later be copied/expanded upon in The Clone Conspiracy.

[AngelJD]

Too bad Loki was out of commission at the time of OMD. He did owe Peter a "favor". I can see him rearanging reality in the fashion you briefly outlined.

Loki- *after examining Peter's entire history* - "Hmmm, I see."

Peter - "What do you see? Is there a way to save Aunt May?"

Loki - "Of course, there is always a way. However, the event which ultimately set her death in motion occurred many years ago, as you would understand time. If I weave that loose thread back into the tapestry of your life there will be serious consequences beyond your Aunt never having been shot tonight."

Peter - "I don't care, just do it."

Loki *grins mischievously* - "As you wish." *he claps his hands*

Reality changes so Peter managed to save Gwen on the bridge and thus Harry never died or became Green Goblin II. Much Later Gwen as Ghost Spider with help from Harry talked Peter out of joining Stark's side during the Civil War.

Reading over your idea I first wasn't a fan but then I thought I might add my two cents to this.

Your idea would make Marvel admit Sins Past happened and they decided to have 616 Gwen have sex with Osborn (they might add something in like she was drugged or mind control ect). Sins Past isn't a well remembered storyline for that plus as a person who read all the issues of the original Spider-man Vol one from issue 1 up till 145 right now I have to say Sins Past had no signs of it including the type of character of Gwen according or anywhere for the writer to take a issue to showcase some real clue as we see Gwen in London and her mind set and nothing showing pregnancy or kids at all during the Stan Lee or even early Conway before he killed her.

However what was done is done but still I will writer that 616 Gwen Stacy when we first 1/3 of the issues she's in when we first meet her is different I feel also from the 616 Gwen half way till death. That she underwent character developments and after her time in London admit she was wrong about Spider-man and sad that in her grief over her father's death she blamed him (much like Earth-65 Aunt May did to Gwen and felt guilty for doing so after grieving). Gwen seem to care less about her well being but those around her and danger happening seemed to frighten her less but had her more worried by those around her plus after giving a harsh talk to Aunt MAy and then her disappearing Gwen went to investigate and rushed to Aunt May worried for her as well. She also worried for Flash and his involvement in Vietnam and want Peter and Flash to break bread but was annoying how often Flash would openly mock Peter till she verbally told him off as well (which I have to say the verbal insults Flash and Peter did was similar to Gwen and MJ being 'catty' to each other to a annoying degree yet though they oddly seemed to have a facial expression that half the time they were annoyed but also half the time they enjoy and expected the battle and was ready to shoot a side comment back like passing a ball vs the guys that was just ready to throw down).
For me it seemed like after her father died and after she grieved her priorities and mental outlook changed that those around her was of a higher priority plus was willing to go into more dangerous situations for it outside of her well being (in a way it reminds me of Peter's well intended but flawed No one will die agian mental state to others).
So the Gwen of the first 1/3 and the Gwen after grieving and last 1/3 felt different and if I was to place Sins Past Gwen of those two the first 1/3 version I see more as (the one whom was interested but quick to be angry that she wasn't noticed by Peter in her first appearance which has a level of self interest vs the selfless of the last 1/3 of her appearances) Looking over the art style and designs The first 1/3 Gwen has a different look (wearing red and different facial and hairstyle also) vs the art design and appearance that she died as and most think of her as the defacto look to her.

I'll post some pictures showing not just the difference in looks but personality and selfishness and selflessness of the two.
(since I have more then three images I'll have to continue to on another post to post more pictures but first the beginning red more angry and selfish and self conceited (something both Gwen and MJ seems to share during this time in the comics which I wasn't a fan of) persona Gwen):




I'll post the last 1/3 and changes of 616 Gwen later then get to my own idea inspired by Celgress

[AngelJD]

As I just posted this 616 Gwen looks and acts different from the Gwen that would die. To me she even has a darker and harcher appearance with her wearing red, that glare, and how she first wore that headband with hair going over it makes it look like she has horns to me.

Now let me post some of the last 1/3 of Gwen:

[AngelJD]

From here she seems to care more about others well being and feats more over them plus art style and design has a new appearance.


Now I don't have alot of time to write my idea inspired/adding a bit by yours but I'll rush and try to cover a few things in my head.
So let's have that Sins Past is acknowledged agian. That this act of Gwen having sex happened just after her father died and she very hurt and in need but Peter isn't around. In her pain Osborn see's the hurt and as always uses a moment of weakness to exploit.

Thus Gwen's Sin would be her cheating on Parker by having sex as they are together as a couple during this time even though Peter disappears on her all the time and she's left vulnerable. Still it's her responsible to admittance of a wrongdoing and asking of forgiveness. Even if she was going to but Peter snapped her neck (accidently) before she could admit her sin and carrying that burden sent her to Hell. During this time two sides and psyche of Gwen are being forged in Hell's flames. We all have a good and evil on our shoulders and the good side of Gwen knew of her wrongdoing and admittance of why she was there and responsibility she failed but lost hope to set things right. The other evil side is irresponsible and selfish and does as what you wrote Celgress.

This war of two sides so strong they split with the evil side taking the first appearance form and the good the appearance of how most fans see her. Since both are Gwen they can't escape still binded to each other with the good wanting the bad to admit fault but the evil blaming Peter and MJ and the world.

When the evil side makes the deal despite the good protests the evil Gwen gets received but forced to drag the good with her but while the evil side gains a body by the devil the good is placed in a cage as a glowing light. In order not to fade away the bad and good must maintain a close proximity forcing the evil side to remain primary in the location she was resurrected at or forced to take extra measures when moving. Back always and just per selfish evil the dark red Gwen whores herself and has no sense of responsibility or care for others.

When the devil returns in anger Gwen blames the PArkers but also works it to her advantage to gain demonic succubus powers so all will be forced to see and desire her. Plus making a deal that allowed the ties that bound her and the good side to be cut permanently thanks to the Devil and the evil succubus Gwen planned to destroy the light that plagued her for so long. However in a bright flash the good side escapes.

The good worrying for her friends knowing the evil side will go after them goes to where she recalled all the places her, Peter, and MJ use to go but many of them now gone and closed. She discovers where Peter is living howing to enter him to be able to warn somehow about the coming dangers and truths he doesn't know. But like how when she last time went to Peter's place and instead the Goblin came first Gwen ruching to Peter's place to find MJ.
The evil demon attacks and to protect MJ Gwen's good spirit rushes in front of her taking a hit that knocks her right into MJ temporary fusing and granting them a power unlock by two souls in one body and teamwork. With the evil side per selfish and relying on just her own dark powers while the good helping and relying on others prove to be enough to keep MJ safe.

Escaping Mj thinks she' dreaming or having a nightmare or has gone crazy but Gwen assures her that she isn't telling everything MJ must know or doesn't recall but affecting her. Gwen also tell MJ that her evil side is what is attacking her that while MJ and Peter recall only good things after her death Gwen had faults and sins that she must atone for.


After a massive assault and endgame the demon Gwen side loses. The good side seperated and protecting and admitting her faults asking forgiveness has the weight of sin removed from her. The good side of Gwen doesn't get to go to Heaven however as she was cut in half and has to become whole in some form but can work on doing good deeds and spiritual jobs (Death, Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus and others) that will add and patch up the damages created by hell's fire to her till her soul is full again plus prayers from those that knew her.

Meanwhile MJ thanks to info from Gwen knows about the OMD deal (meanwhile Peter is still obvious and in irony just like all the times Peter as Spider-man left to be on a mission leaving both MJ and Gwen alone Peter was out all this time when this major storyline is happening).

[Nerdman3000]

I think it'd be better to just confirm that the Clone Conspiracy Gwen clone really did survive as more than a few of us, myself included, have speculated. Maybe she joins the main cast of the Amazing Spider-Man issues not not, but I ultimately wouldn't mind if that Gwen clone came back as long as it doesn't ultimately interfere with Peter and MJ.

Personally, I think you can tell a lot of interesting stories with a clone 616 of Gwen Stacy having to deal with life after being dead for years, and the impact her death caused on everybody, especially her possible interactions with Peter and MJ.

[CrimsonEchidna]

I feel like the window of opportunity has already come and gone. The One More Day reset was the perfect opportunity if there ever was one, and they even toyed with the idea to boot before balking on it.

But now, there's kind of no point, especially with Spider-Gwen being a successful character.

[AngelJD]

I think it'd be better to just confirm that the Clone Conspiracy Gwen clone really did survive as more than a few of us, myself included, have speculated. Maybe she joins the main cast of the Amazing Spider-Man issues not not, but I ultimately wouldn't mind if that Gwen clone came back as long as it doesn't ultimately interfere with Peter and MJ.

Personally, I think you can tell a lot of interesting stories with a clone 616 of Gwen Stacy having to deal with life after being dead for years, and the impact her death caused on everybody, especially her possible interactions with Peter and MJ.

I really like that version of 'Gwen Stacy' myself for the limited time we got to know her (plus I feel there were some miss opportunities with her) so I as well hope she lives and might appear agian (and used wisely with great story ars, developments, and likeable character interactions particular being a 616 and Multiverse fan of MJs and Gwens fan having scenes with those two that isn't negative but friendly and heartwarming).

As for the whole (since one version exists and is popular) viewpoints I understand but I don't feel that should stop any writer taking a chance if they feel they have a story to tell the some versions of Gwen can't cover at a point in time needed or only a new or certain versions can. Also just because we might have a popular version existing currently that viewpoint would of killed TONS of Multiverse stories of character versions from ever existing or allowing writers to take a chance on and we would miss out. 616 Peter exists and is popular yet we will still have Multiverse Peter Parkers tales being made. If done very well they could coexist and earn a fanbase and a world being made and enjoyed as well.

If this mindset is followed then Earth-1610 the Ultimate Universe would never have come to be and the characters made and beloved from there first. So the point isn't because a version that is popular and is liked exists thus not other versions can exist but that if a writer(s) has an idea(s) they believe in and worked hard on and battled to be made should have the opportunity to present such ideas to the heads and if the idea and planning is good enough to convince possible stubborn heads to greenlight it the writers and art teams should have those opportunities and not have creativity that might bring possible wonders and masterpieces stifled.

[marhawkman]

I think it'd be better to just confirm that the Clone Conspiracy Gwen clone really did survive as more than a few of us, myself included, have speculated. Maybe she joins the main cast of the Amazing Spider-Man issues not not, but I ultimately wouldn't mind if that Gwen clone came back as long as it doesn't ultimately interfere with Peter and MJ.

Personally, I think you can tell a lot of interesting stories with a clone 616 of Gwen Stacy having to deal with life after being dead for years, and the impact her death caused on everybody, especially her possible interactions with Peter and MJ.

Heh, maybe retcon her to be Gabriel and Sarah's mother?

For it to be really good though she needs to be written as a separate person.