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  1. #46
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Themyscira isn't a hostile foreign nation though, hence the American iconogrophy on her costume (that some people want completely abolished). She's an Ambassador, friend and an ally to the United States. She's no more a spy than any of our other allies and I would assume as an Ambassador she'd have diplomatic immunity to the laws you say she's breaking. Themyscira couldn't invade America anyway because they can't leave their island.

  2. #47
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    Themyscira isn't a hostile foreign nation though, hence the American iconogrophy on her costume (that some people want completely abolished). She's an Ambassador, friend and an ally to the United States. She's no more a spy than any of our other allies and I would assume as an Ambassador she'd have diplomatic immunity to the laws you say she's breaking. Themyscira couldn't invade America anyway because they can't leave their island.
    A few things to remember here.

    First, while most superhero comics and superheroes are decidely American, not all need be so. The movie Diana was active in England and Belgium during the First World War, and then lived in France. And while Diana and Themyscira are benevolent towards the USA (and indeed most other nations on earth), USA or the other nations might have other ideas.

    Diplomatic immunity doesn't give immunity per se against breaking laws. It is the understanding that as the official representative of another country, the receiving country may not punish them (see also how heralds were supposed to be treated of old, or the origin of the proverb "blaming the messenger"). If Diana broke any laws in the US while an ambassador there, the USA would be fully within their rights to declare her persona non grata, ie renounce her privilege to live and act in the USA, and force her to leave the country.

  3. #48
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    There were several things that bummed me out when Robert Kanigher took over WONDER WOMAN after the mod Diana Prince years (but more in hindsight, as I didn't read most of those comics at the time) and one was how he completely ignored the fact that everyone in the world knew that Diana Prince was Wonder Woman, in the mod years. I think that had a different writer taken over and acknowledged all the changes to Diana's character from those stories, then Diana Prince would have been a richer character.

    Kanigher went so far as to have another character think Diana was unattractive just because she wore glass, when only the issue before Diana was admired as a well-dressed, independent woman. Indeed, the whole mod period began with Diana throwing out her boring old look and adopting the latest fashions. If DC had stuck with that, but simply added the star-spangled outfit into the stories, then I think the Diana Prince identity would have had a stronger presence.



  4. #49
    Mighty Member RealWonderman's Avatar
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    Yes, she should have a Diana Prince ID, and gen pop should not know Diana is Wonder Woman. I like how they do it in the movies.
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  5. #50
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    Themyscira isn't a hostile foreign nation though, hence the American iconogrophy on her costume (that some people want completely abolished). She's an Ambassador, friend and an ally to the United States. She's no more a spy than any of our other allies and I would assume as an Ambassador she'd have diplomatic immunity to the laws you say she's breaking. Themyscira couldn't invade America anyway because they can't leave their island.
    Whether Themyscria is a hostile nation or not is besides the point. She was a foreign national with strong political ties to another country that was (at the time) involved with the global village, lying about her background while working within the infrastructure of the American government. That's called a spy. Whether it's a "benign" spy or not doesn't matter. Remember, I'm just talking about the Heinburg era where Diana had a full blown secret identity and was working within the Department of Metahuman Affairs; the superhuman version of the FBI. Sorry, but nothing about that sounds like Diana to me.

    And this was the era when Amazons Attack hit, so Themyscria being a friendly nation (or the Amazons being stuck there) isn't accurate.

    And that's not how diplomatic immunity works.
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  6. #51
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Whether Themyscria is a hostile nation or not is besides the point. She was a foreign national with strong political ties to another country that was (at the time) involved with the global village, lying about her background while working within the infrastructure of the American government. That's called a spy. Whether it's a "benign" spy or not doesn't matter. Remember, I'm just talking about the Heinburg era where Diana had a full blown secret identity and was working within the Department of Metahuman Affairs; the superhuman version of the FBI. Sorry, but nothing about that sounds like Diana to me.

    And this was the era when Amazons Attack hit, so Themyscria being a friendly nation (or the Amazons being stuck there) isn't accurate.

    And that's not how diplomatic immunity works.
    Batman set up the Diana Prince identity and gave her legal credentials to work for the U.S. government. He and she are both members of the Justice League and that in and of itself should grant them clearance above most government officials, so she wasn't a "spy". As Wonder Woman she was already cashing government checks which is why she was working at Taco Wiz when they were withheld due to an administration glitch.

  7. #52
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    Batman set up the Diana Prince identity and gave her legal credentials to work for the U.S. government.
    He gave her a fake identity with fake credentials. Which she used to secure a sensitive position under false pretenses. Why you think that's an okay thing to do, and something Diana would want to do, is beyond me.

    He and she are both members of the Justice League and that in and of itself should grant them clearance above most government officials, so she wasn't a "spy".
    It doesn't. The League might have a understanding with the UN and its member states (or not, depending on the era and story) but it has never to my knowledge superseded a country's sovereignty. The League can't tell a country who it can hire, for what positions, and when. And if it could, there would've been no reason for Diana to hide her identity from Sarge Steel and her other superiors.

    She wasn't technically a spy, no, she was just living a false life with a fake identity in another nation where she had no actual citizenship. She gained access to sensitive data important to that nation's intelligence community while she lied to her superiors about her real identity.

    If it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck......but no, Diana wasn't a spy.....she was just living like one.

    And I'm finished arguing the dubious viability of a run that's at least a decade old and wasn't popular in the first place.
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  8. #53
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    He gave her a fake identity with fake credentials. Which she used to secure a sensitive position under false pretenses. Why you think that's an okay thing to do, and something Diana would want to do, is beyond me.



    It doesn't. The League might have a understanding with the UN and its member states (or not, depending on the era and story) but it has never to my knowledge superseded a country's sovereignty. The League can't tell a country who it can hire, for what positions, and when. And if it could, there would've been no reason for Diana to hide her identity from Sarge Steel and her other superiors.

    She wasn't technically a spy, no, she was just living a false life with a fake identity in another nation where she had no actual citizenship. She gained access to sensitive data important to that nation's intelligence community while she lied to her superiors about her real identity.

    If it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck......but no, Diana wasn't a spy.....she was just living like one.

    And I'm finished arguing the dubious viability of a run that's at least a decade old and wasn't popular in the first place.
    Earlier in the thread we already discussed how the DP identity wasn't fooling anyone during Heinberg's run. The first issue she's standing in front of a giant screen with an image of WW, while looking just like her except for a different outfit. She tried to announce her real identity and the answer was akin to "Sooo what else is new?". They knew who she was and let it slide, heck Sarge Steel her commanding officer was an impostor too and Nemesis could change his appearance at will. It's not a big deal like you're trying to make it out to be.

  9. #54
    Mighty Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    There were several things that bummed me out when Robert Kanigher took over WONDER WOMAN after the mod Diana Prince years (but more in hindsight, as I didn't read most of those comics at the time) and one was how he completely ignored the fact that everyone in the world knew that Diana Prince was Wonder Woman, in the mod years. I think that had a different writer taken over and acknowledged all the changes to Diana's character from those stories, then Diana Prince would have been a richer character.

    Kanigher went so far as to have another character think Diana was unattractive just because she wore glass, when only the issue before Diana was admired as a well-dressed, independent woman. Indeed, the whole mod period began with Diana throwing out her boring old look and adopting the latest fashions. If DC had stuck with that, but simply added the star-spangled outfit into the stories, then I think the Diana Prince identity would have had a stronger presence.


    Part of that might have been the real life backlash against that change, with even Gloria Steinem deriding the fact that Wonder Woman has no powers anymore.

  10. #55
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    I'm sure that Gloria never intended for Diana Prince to get such shabby treatment. I really do wonder if she ever bothered to read either the Sekowsky comics or the Kanigher comics.

  11. #56
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    I'm sure that Gloria never intended for Diana Prince to get such shabby treatment. I really do wonder if she ever bothered to read either the Sekowsky comics or the Kanigher comics.
    She didn't. I remember her essay on Wonder Woman in Ms. Magazine. She fixated on the lack of powers and didn't read further.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    Earlier in the thread we already discussed how the DP identity wasn't fooling anyone during Heinberg's run. The first issue she's standing in front of a giant screen with an image of WW, while looking just like her except for a different outfit. She tried to announce her real identity and the answer was akin to "Sooo what else is new?". They knew who she was and let it slide, heck Sarge Steel her commanding officer was an impostor too and Nemesis could change his appearance at will. It's not a big deal like you're trying to make it out to be.
    If it can’t fool anybody what is its purpose? It would be like if Clark Kent kept his identity as Superman a secret only for it to be thatvthe entire world knew and didn’t care. If people know Diana Prince and Wonder Woman are one and the same, the DP Identity serves no purpose and she might as well not bother with it.

    The guy impersonating Steel was a villain and Nemesis used disguises as part of his job. None of these excuses applied to Diana who using the DP identity to supposedly try and live like a normal person with no friends, no family and a job that was even less relatable than an ambassador.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 11-06-2018 at 08:27 PM.

  13. #58
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A

    scended;4007729
    Oh, I think Diana can lie, of course she can. She's probably bad at it but its not like she's incapable of lying at all.

    But there's a ocean of difference between "Table for two, reservation is under the name "Prince'" and living a completely fabricated life, complete with fake social security number, that is in no way genuine, and working for a government agency under an assumed name when she's really next in line to rule a foreign nation (I was talking specifically about the Heinburg run, or however the hell you spell the name).

    Clearly Diana isn't overly concerned with obeying American laws, since she came her illegally and (depending on the era) works outside of law enforcement while fighting crime. But again, there's a big difference between that and being what is essentially a spy buried deep within the infrastructure of America's intelligence community.
    She can easily get the Papers legally. I canít see why she couldnít get it legally. I mean she has a home and a few other things in enwn52 and no one seem to Know who she was. It seems like in rebirth people donít know who she is. I would she play up to the immigrant. She doesnít have to say much about her background. To others
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  14. #59
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    She can easily get the Papers legally. I can’t see why she couldn’t get it legally. I mean she has a home and a few other things in enwn52 and no one seem to Know who she was. It seems like in rebirth people don’t know who she is. I would she play up to the immigrant. She doesn’t have to say much about her background. To others
    Exactly. She could get the papers easily. Odds are Diana already had some kind of legal identification, considering how Themyscria had been played during those years as a political power. So Di probably had something akin to "ambassador" status, or at least a work visa or something , and could easily have gotten into some kind of co-op with the DMA. She's often been shown working with the military in various versions, so it's half expected of her anyway. But Diana didn't get the papers legally. She lied about her entire life using a fake identity someone had cooked up for her the day before. Does that not strike anyone else as being a tad out of the norm for her? I know "Diana Prince" was there from the start, and as part of Marston's creation it deserves to be considered and respected. But I really dont think it makes sense as we've come to understand the character today.

    I mean, a secret identity isn't the worst thing for Diana, even if I don't think it's necessary or fits the character. The Heinburg thing was just terrible though. And I didn't mean to clutter the thread with a debate about that era. I thought we had all agreed it was terrible, I didn't think commenting on it would be a thing.
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  15. #60
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    If it can’t fool anybody what is its purpose? It would be like if Clark Kent kept his identity as Superman a secret only for it to be thatvthe entire world knew and didn’t care. If people know Diana Prince and Wonder Woman are one and the same, the DP Identity serves no purpose and she might as well not bother with it.

    The guy impersonating Steel was a villain and Nemesis used disguises as part of his job. None of these excuses applied to Diana who using the DP identity to supposedly try and live like a normal person with no friends, no family and a job that was even less relatable than an ambassador.
    The purpose is to see Wonder Woman in a different light and put her in possible peril. The Diana Prince id instantly makes even a street level villain into a genuine threat if they catch her in the right guise. It provides far more storytelling potential and dramatic tension. We've seen Giganta tripped or entangled by the lasso a dozen times, but how would Diana Prince defeat her?

    Despite many assertions to the contrary it does make her more relatable. She had a boss, co-workers and a job description like the rest of us, instead of running her own embassy with a White Room for teleportation.

    In addition she's able to express a full range of emotions, like doubt or fear that Wonder Woman rarely seems to feel. The two aspects make a complete person yet two very different kinds of Wonder Women.

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