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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amazon Swordsman View Post
    She has to pretend just to get a coffee? Or ice cream? “Order up for a...Wonder Woman, Princess of the Amazons of Themyscira!”

    Seriously??
    She doesn’t have to pretend. That’s been my argument every time this question comes up. Diana doesn’t have to lie about who she is for down time.

  2. #107
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Why can't she lie at times? I mean there are secerts she can't tell. Why can't she use a civilian id to blend in? Also she should because I don't know about you but she has to deal with million of fans and criticisms. She shouldm't always deal with that in her down time. So you want to always to deal with people who hate her and people who love her. Why can't she get some down time. People will always bother her if they knew who she is. She is simply Diana. Also Wonder Woman is just a title. So Diana would be better. She doesn't have to say much if She is using Diana Prince. That she isn't from this country. That she is from a uncharted country. There are places that are only women places. She can tell the truth but doesn't have to give much of it.
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  3. #108
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    One aspect of the secret id that I think is important and I will argue in favor of till the day I die is that she needs an understanding of regular people in order to protect them. And while I'm not a huge fan of it, personally, this would also help her career as a lecturer/teacher immensely. I mean, putting it in real world terms, it's like Caitlyn Jenner telling non-super rich trans people how to live their lives when Caitlyn's never once had to worry about such things as job interviews or filling out apartment applications. As mundane as these things are, they are essential to every day living and Jenner has not once ever had to concern herself with either of these things so the idea of her telling middle class trans people how to best live their lives is absolutely laughable. This is pretty much the same way I see a superhero princess on the lecture circuit. And while some may argue that there's no reason that she couldn't use multiple ids for that and not just Diana Prince, well, I would think she'd appreciate the consistency, quite frankly.

    Or if they didn't want to insert the secret id, they can just get rid of the lecturer/teacher/diplomat aspect of the character altogether. I would not only be absolutely okay with this, I would be thrilled.
    Last edited by phonogram12; 11-21-2018 at 12:19 PM.
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

  4. #109
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    I think - not. Plus - this can good for potential future animated series.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    One aspect of the secret id that I think is important and I will argue in favor of till the day I die is that she needs an understanding of regular people in order to protect them. And while I'm not a huge fan of it, personally, this would also help her career as a lecturer/teacher immensely. I mean, putting it in real world terms, it's like Caitlyn Jenner telling non-super rich trans people how to live their lives when Caitlyn's never once had to worry about such things as job interviews or filling out apartment applications. As mundane as these things are, they are essential to every day living and Jenner has not once ever had to concern herself with either of these things so the idea of her telling middle class trans people how to best live their lives is absolutely laughable. This is pretty much the same way I see a superhero princess on the lecture circuit. And while some may argue that there's no reason that she couldn't use multiple ids for that and not just Diana Prince, well, I would think she'd appreciate the consistency, quite frankly.

    Or if they didn't want to insert the secret id, they can just get rid of the lecturer/teacher/diplomat aspect of the character altogether. I would not only be absolutely okay with this, I would be thrilled.
    Being a diplomat or teacher includes opening a dialogue with people and getting to know them. If anything, Diana has a better chance of communicating with and understanding people without a secret identity. You don't need to literally live a person's life to understand them. You just need common empathy.


    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Why can't she lie at times? I mean there are secerts she can't tell. Why can't she use a civilian id to blend in? Also she should because I don't know about you but she has to deal with million of fans and criticisms. She shouldm't always deal with that in her down time. So you want to always to deal with people who hate her and people who love her. Why can't she get some down time. People will always bother her if they knew who she is. She is simply Diana. Also Wonder Woman is just a title. So Diana would be better. She doesn't have to say much if She is using Diana Prince. That she isn't from this country. That she is from a uncharted country. There are places that are only women places. She can tell the truth but doesn't have to give much of it.
    Keeping secrets is one thing. Diana Prince, however, is a completely unnecessary concept that never made any sense and was only used because everyone else had a secret i.d. at the time. We have seen that Diana does not need a secret identity for down time with friends or to function in any way. This concept is being defended by being proposed as a solution to a problem that simply does not exists in the WW mythos.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 11-21-2018 at 01:21 PM.

  6. #111
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    One aspect of the secret id that I think is important and I will argue in favor of till the day I die is that she needs an understanding of regular people in order to protect them. And while I'm not a huge fan of it, personally, this would also help her career as a lecturer/teacher immensely.
    You're arguing something similar to what was done in Spirit of Truth, where Diana goes to Clark Kent to ask for advice on connecting to and helping people.

    But I think that view is based on a limited understanding of how Diana sees her role as envoy (or messenger) for the Amazons in Man's World, and of a narrow view of empathy. It can even be argued that living two separate lives does things to your view of other people that are just as bad as being a mega-rich celebrity, and it's probably no good for your mental health either (as Tom King pointed out in the most recent Heroes in Crisis with the Superman booth session). Every personal interaction, every person you meet, will be evaluated as a threat for exposing your dual identity. You will have two separate personas, and in the end will not be sure which one is the right one.

    Sure, everyone projects different roles or personas in different contexts, but having two of them that are both complete in some way and are never to be connected seems like asking for trouble.

    To get back to the messenger angle, I don't think Diana is here to educate individual people or tell them what to do: she is here to change society and be an inspiration to as many people as she can. She can do that best by being highly visible.

    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    Or if they didn't want to insert the secret id, they can just get rid of the lecturer/teacher/diplomat aspect of the character altogether. I would not only be absolutely okay with this, I would be thrilled.
    To be frank, I think most writers have been terrible at handling Diana as a messenger to Man's World from Themyscira. But if there is one writer who can do that well, I think it's Wilson.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Being a diplomat or teacher includes opening a dialogue with people and getting to know them. If anything, Diana has a better chance of communicating with and understanding people without a secret identity. You don't need to literally live a person's life to understand them. You just need common empathy.
    She can have all the empathy she wants (and I don't doubt that she has volumes), but delivery matters just as much as content. As a middle class working person who's lived in either the suburbs or city his entire life, I'm really not the least bit interested in taking life advice from a lifelong heiress from just this side of paradise, no matter well-intentioned she is (and I don't imagine most people would be).

    Delivery matters.
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    You're arguing something similar to what was done in Spirit of Truth, where Diana goes to Clark Kent to ask for advice on connecting to and helping people.

    But I think that view is based on a limited understanding of how Diana sees her role as envoy (or messenger) for the Amazons in Man's World, and of a narrow view of empathy. It can even be argued that living two separate lives does things to your view of other people that are just as bad as being a mega-rich celebrity, and it's probably no good for your mental health either (as Tom King pointed out in the most recent Heroes in Crisis with the Superman booth session). Every personal interaction, every person you meet, will be evaluated as a threat for exposing your dual identity. You will have two separate personas, and in the end will not be sure which one is the right one.

    Sure, everyone projects different roles or personas in different contexts, but having two of them that are both complete in some way and are never to be connected seems like asking for trouble.
    It also could lead to a myriad of storytelling possibilities to if you think about it.

    That said, I'm really not as big of an advocate for the secret id as I used to be. Both Brian Azzarello's excellent run and the movie illustrated perfectly why they're not necessarily a necessity. I just don't think it should necessarily dismissed so easily out of hand at the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    To get back to the messenger angle, I don't think Diana is here to educate individual people or tell them what to do: she is here to change society and be an inspiration to as many people as she can. She can do that best by being highly visible.
    Like I said previously, she can see herself any way she wants and I don't doubt that she has the best of intentions, but none of that matters if people aren't willing to listen to her. Delivery matters every bit as content. Just being visible doesn't necessarily make her accessible.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    To be frank, I think most writers have been terrible at handling Diana as a messenger to Man's World from Themyscira. But if there is one writer who can do that well, I think it's Wilson.
    I did like Ms. Marvel, so I'd be willing to give it a shot. If past efforts are of any indication, however, I'm not terribly optimistic. For the most part I have no problem with her not having a secret id anymore just so long as she ditches the whole teacher/lecturer/ambassador angle. It's just never worked for me.
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

  9. #114
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Why can't she use it as a civilian id? I mean how does she get away from the paparazzi? Anytime she goes to her friends she most likely will deal with them. Diana isn't actually someone people won't notice. Nothing like a secret idea but something for proeprty. That she uses Diana Prince for certain things and Wonder Woman for something else. Her friends know she is. She isn't using it for jobs or anything but for things like hotel rooms or going away.
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  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    She can have all the empathy she wants (and I don't doubt that she has volumes), but delivery matters just as much as content. As a middle class working person who's lived in either the suburbs or city his entire life, I'm really not the least bit interested in taking life advice from a lifelong heiress from just this side of paradise, no matter well-intentioned she is (and I don't imagine most people would be).

    Delivery matters.
    Yeah delivery matters. I acknowledge that. But you seem to be under the impression that people have never been able to get behind someone who has a very different background from them before. This has been the case for multiple civil rights activists, politicians and philosophers. If people can look up to Superman both in universe and out, the same can be done with Diana. Again, this is her literal job. If she hits a communication barrier she tries to resolve it. And she doesn't need to lie to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Why can't she use it as a civilian id? I mean how does she get away from the paparazzi? Anytime she goes to her friends she most likely will deal with them. Diana isn't actually someone people won't notice. Nothing like a secret idea but something for proeprty. That she uses Diana Prince for certain things and Wonder Woman for something else. Her friends know she is. She isn't using it for jobs or anything but for things like hotel rooms or going away.
    Again, you are using the secret i.d to solve problems that do not exist or at least don't need to be solved by the secret i.d. How does she get away from paparazzi? She has super speed. And even real life celebrities don't get hounded by the paparazzi every minute of every day. Plus, I'd imagine these guys would lay off when they realize getting a shot of Diana eating a burger isn't worth getting eaten by a cyclops or turned into a mouse by Circe.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 11-21-2018 at 08:55 PM.

  11. #116
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    It also could lead to a myriad of storytelling possibilities to if you think about it.
    Correct, but any character choice leads to both storytelling possibilities and that lots of storytelling possibilities are excluded. I don't view that as a problem in and of itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    Like I said previously, she can see herself any way she wants and I don't doubt that she has the best of intentions, but none of that matters if people aren't willing to listen to her. Delivery matters every bit as content. Just being visible doesn't necessarily make her accessible.
    That's a problem for any person trying to change the world or influence others. But unlike Superman, who grew up on a small farm in Kansas that struggled with debts and crop failure and experienced the Dustbowl firsthand, Diana was raised by goddesses, among griffins, and pegasi on an utopic island, turning her into a ten-foot tall supermodel action superhero goddess, to borrow Detective Chimp's words from JLD #1.

    Instead of trying to pretend that she is something she is not, I think she should inspire and show empathy while being what she is. And accept that she can't reach everyone everytime. In the end, I think that's the stronger message.

    As for the teacher/embassador angle, there is a reason I choose the terms envoy or messenger, because they don't carry the same rigid connotations. Most writers have done a rather bad job when they've tried to show her explicitly as one, most recently in the case of Morrison in Earth One volume 2. But it is arguably her entire reason for being, both in and out of text. Marston wanted Diana to teach young boys what he thought women were capable of. Diana left Themyscira in order to improve the world around her.

    Now that I think of it, the movie did a rather good job of showing Diana's teacher and empathy angle, and part of that is she both an example and learns from those around her.

    ETA: fix last paragraph
    Last edited by kjn; 11-22-2018 at 09:53 AM.

  12. #117
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Again, you are using the secret i.d to solve problems that do not exist or at least don't need to be solved by the secret i.d. How does she get away from paparazzi? She has super speed. And even real life celebrities don't get hounded by the paparazzi every minute of every day. Plus, I'd imagine these guys would lay off when they realize getting a shot of Diana eating a burger isn't worth getting eaten by a cyclops or turned into a mouse by Circe.


    Civilian Id is different from Secret id. Clark Kent is a secret id. Diana Prince would be a Civilian id. Meaning not hiding who she is. She simply using ever now and then Nothing that she would be hiding. Celebrities use different names all the time for things like hotels . That's all I mean. A name she uses.


    Also wouldn't it be harder for her to make friends and actually get certain things?
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 11-22-2018 at 07:46 PM.
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  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Civilian Id is different from Secret id. Clark Kent is a secret id. Diana Prince would be a Civilian id. Meaning not hiding who she is.
    The way you’re describing it, that is exactly what it would be. No one would know who she was unless she let them and it’s to hide from certain people.


    Also wouldn't it be harder for her to make friends and actually get certain things?
    She hasn’t had a secret identity (or civilian identity as you want to call it) in decades and has had no trouble making friends.

  14. #119
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Obviously there's nothing fundamentally stopping her from changing into normal clothes and walking around like a normal person as-is. But calling herself Diana Prince while doing so isn't quite the same as a secret identity. The other requires you to maintain the persona over time rather than simply wearing it like a mask every now and then.

  15. #120
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    I also love the Diana Prince identity, just because it's fun and can drive a lot soap operatics.

    Most people are going to treat Diana Prince very differently than Wonder Woman and it could be fun to see that difference.

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