Mutant Lives Matter: mutation as allegory

[Grey]

The Irony is that the X-men, as a franchise rather then just as a group, deals with exactly that concept of "peaceful equel co-existence" vs Turning the table's of oppression - it was largely what Magneto vs Xavier as a stand-in for MLK vs Malcom X was about.
While the the rubber band effect is arguably as much what the X-men are fighting against as the actual oppression is, which is why they spend such a long time fighting other MUTANT groups rather then the idiot humans.
And they do stand for mostly minority groups - My comment was less about the majority being oppressed then about how the changing times makes it less likely for public displays of bigotry against minority groups appear believable within the context of the story.

As for the "Pro-Mutant" protestors - to be clear, I'm not saying it makes the metaphor LESS meaningful, since I actually think it makes it MORE believable.
Today, protest in support of minority groups are far more likely to be seen (and definitely more likely to get positive media coverage) then ones hostile to minority groups.
But it also has effects on the stories you can write and make seem believable - it becomes less believable to sell the X-men as a hated minority in an era where minority groups tend to get more sympathetic coverage then anyone talking against them.

Its mostly a storytelling issue going forward.



Like I mentioned above - my main point was the effect that greater acceptence towards minorities has on the storytelling.
Selling the X-men as a hated bunch of "freaks" becomes less believable in an era where society is getting more and more "down with its freaky self" then ever before.

The "SWM" bit is more about finding a new group you can believably have people openly and socially accetably bigoted towards.

I don’t speak for everyone but I still believe the X-men stand for peaceful coexistence and not turning the tables of oppression. I do agree that a lot of people in real life seem to go for the latter, and I do agree it’s wrong. I do think it’s a natural human response though. I think if more people acknowledged the treatment minorities have gotten, this rubber band effect wouldn’t be so prominent and we could all begin to march forward together.

Regarding the amount of anti mutant protesters not making sense: you may have a point in comparison to real world developed western countries. But it certainly is not true for other areas of the world, and many posters on this board can attest to that due to where they live.p and their experiences. So I think it still holds up.

But even in developed countries the hate still exists, it’s just not as prominent due to legal repercussions. But it still happens covertly and frequently. I don’t think the translation from comic to real world has to be a literal representation for it to be meaningful.

I just read comics and accept the 616 for what it is. If it shows that the majority of people protest mutaants, and that those supportive of mutants are not the majority and not the ones making policy decisions, I just go with it. Just like I go with the fact that, theoretically the avengers would step in and tell humans to stop harming mutants. But it doesn’t happen. I just go with it for the sake of being able to enjoy the comic as otherwise it falls apart.

Consider the age group comics are intended for. There’s only so much page space to convey a message and younger crowds aren’t going to pick it apart so much.

[bladeofdarkness]

I don’t speak for everyone but I still believe the X-men stand for peaceful coexistence and not turning the tables of oppression. I do agree that a lot of people in real life seem to go for the latter, and I do agree it’s wrong. I do think it’s a natural human response though. I think if more people acknowledged the treatment minorities have gotten, this rubber band effect wouldn’t be so prominent and we could all begin to march forward together.

Regarding the amount of anti mutant protesters not making sense: you may have a point in comparison to real world developed western countries. But it certainly is not true for other areas of the world, and many posters on this board can attest to that due to where they live.p and their experiences. So I think it still holds up.

But even in developed countries the hate still exists, it’s just not as prominent due to legal repercussions. But it still happens covertly and frequently. I don’t think the translation from comic to real world has to be a literal representation for it to be meaningful.

My main issue is less about "meaningful" and more about "believable".

70 years ago, a black person would likely be denied service, much less employment, at a coffee shop in some parts of the US.
You can convincingly sell the kind of open bigotry the X-men often experience if THAT is your refrence point.
Today, a couple of black guys get arrested after refusing to leave a starbucks shop - and the entire nationwide network of coffee shops shuts down all of its branches for employment sensitivity training.
If THAT is the real world status quo in the U.S, it becomes much less practical to use THAT level of bigotry in the storytelling, since it kinda breaks the suspension of disbelief.
How do you sell "the goverment is creating Mutant-Killing Robots" narretive in a world where appearing even slightly insensitive towards minorities can get you fired ?

We all grew up with the concept of the X-men facing the more "Classic" kind of bigotry - but the world is changing, and the stories are going to have to adjust with it.
Today the new Uncanny issue came out, and there's this neat scene with Bishop and an anti-mutant protestor - Its neat, but it's also kinda feels hopelessly anachronistic, since a modern day anti-mutant bigot wouldn't be standing around with a sign - they'd be s#itposting on twitter under an alies.

[Grey]

My main issue is less about "meaningful" and more about "believable".

70 years ago, a black person would likely be denied service, much less employment, at a coffee shop in some parts of the US.
You can convincingly sell the kind of open bigotry the X-men often experience if THAT is your refrence point.
Today, a couple of black guys get arrested after refusing to leave a starbucks shop - and the entire nationwide network of coffee shops shuts down all of its branches for employment sensitivity training.
If THAT is the real world status quo in the U.S, it becomes much less practical to use THAT level of bigotry in the storytelling, since it kinda breaks the suspension of disbelief.
How do you sell "the goverment is creating Mutant-Killing Robots" narretive in a world where appearing even slightly insensitive towards minorities can get you fired ?

We all grew up with the concept of the X-men facing the more "Classic" kind of bigotry - but the world is changing, and the stories are going to have to adjust with it.
Today the new Uncanny issue came out, and there's this neat scene with Bishop and an anti-mutant protestor - Its neat, but it's also kinda feels hopelessly anachronistic, since a modern day anti-mutant bigot wouldn't be standing around with a sign - they'd be s#itposting on twitter under an alies.

That last point isn’t true. Every year my birthday falls on a prominent gay celebration on a beach. Thousands of gay people convene for a fun beach weekend. And each year, People from a lot of local churches always show up with anti gay signs.

Then there’s Westboro Baptist Church which is a whole bother level of in person protesting.

On a related note, I think Xmen red did a good job of relating it more acccuesrrlt to our modern world. Did you read it? With the social media influence etc.

Regarding it not being believable for you. I understand what you’re saying I just don’t see it the same way. Yes the way things unfold in the 616 tend to not be how they’d unfold in our world. But for whatever reason that doesn’t bother me as much. I guess it gets enough “right” that the things that are less believable just aren’t a big deal to me.

[bladeofdarkness]

That last point isn’t true. Every year my birthday falls on a prominent gay celebration on a beach. Thousands of gay people convene for a fun beach weekend. And each year, People from a lot of local churches always show up with anti gay signs.

Then there’s Westboro Baptist Church which is a whole bother level of in person protesting.

On a related note, I think Xmen red did a good job of relating it more acccuesrrlt to our modern world. Did you read it? With the social media influence etc.

Regarding it not being believable for you. I understand what you’re saying I just don’t see it the same way. Yes the way things unfold in the 616 tend to not be how they’d unfold in our world. But for whatever reason that doesn’t bother me as much. I guess it gets enough “right” that the things that are less believable just aren’t a big deal to me.

Well, firstly, I'm sorry you still have to deal with protestors, though I can't say I've heard of it.
I HAVE heard of the WBC, and from what I've heard, they aren't just anti-gay - these are the scumbags who also protest the funerals of dead soldiers.
Thing is - no one seems to treat them with anything BUT contempt, and they are never really treated as something a sane person would be anything like.
They basically ARE cartoon villain in the real world.

Can't say I've read red yet - Mostly waiting for trade on it.

And while I get that for you the story gets enough right - I don't know how long you've been reading these comics, but I'd bet its long enough.
You and I are kinda used to how these stories go and what they are suppose to represent.
Its gonna be a harder sell to future generations.

[Grey]

Well, firstly, I'm sorry you still have to deal with protestors, though I can't say I've heard of it.
I HAVE heard of the WBC, and from what I've heard, they aren't just anti-gay - these are the scumbags who also protest the funerals of dead soldiers.
Thing is - no one seems to treat them with anything BUT contempt, and they are never really treated as something a sane person would be anything like.
They basically ARE cartoon villain in the real world.

Can't say I've read red yet - Mostly waiting for trade on it.

And while I get that for you the story gets enough right - I don't know how long you've been reading these comics, but I'd bet its long enough.
You and I are kinda used to how these stories go and what they are suppose to represent.
Its gonna be a harder sell to future generations.

Xmen red has its flaws but I think you will find it refreshing and maybe more believable than other current x books. It does have quite a liberal slant, which I think could have been done more subtlet.

But I loved the series overall because of how it felt it was much more relatable to current times.

[bladeofdarkness]

Xmen red has its flaws but I think you will find it refreshing and maybe more believable than other current x books. It does have quite a liberal slant, which I think could have been done more subtlet.

But I loved the series overall because of how it felt it was much more relatable to current times.

I'll try it, thanks.
To be honest, the main thing holding me back from picking it up till this point was that none of the cast would be placed anywhere near my top 10 favorites

Maybe the story will change that feeling.

[sungila]

"The X-Men are hated, feared, and despised collectively by humanity for no other reason than that they are mutants. So what we have..., intended or not, is a book that is about racism, bigotry, and prejudice." ~Chris Claremont, 1982

[yogaflame]

How do you sell "the goverment is creating Mutant-Killing Robots" narretive in a world where appearing even slightly insensitive towards minorities can get you fired ?

Bigotry and the military industrial complex is alive and well. I don't understand how people can still be ignorant of this fact.

[bladeofdarkness]

Bigotry and the military industrial complex is alive and well. I don't understand how people can still be ignorant of this fact.

People have been killing one another forever, and Bigotry is hardly the only factor in it, not is it a socially accceptable one.
In fact - try saying "we're at war with these people because they are a bunch of "Sand People" and see how much public support you get for the war.

But the whole POINT of the X-men franchise is that they are hated specifically BECAUSE they are mutants.
Which is what I was getting at.

[yogaflame]

We literally have flying robots killing people. Whether it is because they are Muslim, or because their oil reserves make them powerful, is simply semantics at this point, because they are both applicable. This is why the mutant metaphor is still relevant.

[Ricochet Rita]

Bigotry and the military industrial complex is alive and well. I don't understand how people can still be ignorant of this fact.

*clapclapclapclapclap*

People have been killing one another forever, and Bigotry is hardly the only factor in it, not is it a socially accceptable one.

True. But those who push the killing, destruction and colonization make use of bigotry as a main excuse.

[wano]

*clapclapclapclapclap*



True. But those who push the killing, destruction and colonization make use of bigotry as a main excuse.

Actually they're more honest, they want power and opress those that threaten that power. . . Hell I think that's the reason humans built sentinels, because they feel threatened by mutant power and need a counter measure

[Huntsman Spider]

Actually they're more honest, they want power and opress those that threaten that power. . . Hell I think that's the reason humans built sentinels, because they feel threatened by mutant power and need a counter measure

You're pretty much correct in that regard, and once groups like the X-Men and the Brotherhood (not that they're anywhere near equivalent, mind you) started forming in defense of those mutants who were being disenfranchised and attacked by human authorities and society as a whole, that was when "countermeasures" against mutants started increasing as well. Really, it was and is all about how when those who are used to having or hoarding most (if not all) of the sociopolitical, economic, and/or cultural power feel that monopoly starting to slip away, they will resort to all sorts of increasingly unsavory if not flat-out vile means to retain that stranglehold on power. Bigotry is simply how they get those who wouldn't otherwise benefit or who haven't really benefited from that monopolization of power in the first place to become useful tools/pawns against whomever they see as threatening their power and dominance.

[Star_Jammer]

Were Sentinels (any variety) created before any mutant terrorist attacks? And is the creation of Sentinels to combat Magneto, the Brotherhood, etc. really a bigoted thing to do?

[Huntsman Spider]

Were Sentinels (any variety) created before any mutant terrorist attacks? And is the creation of Sentinels to combat Magneto, the Brotherhood, etc. really a bigoted thing to do?

Combat Magneto and the Brotherhood, yes. Going after mutants just because they're mutants? No, and that is what the Sentinels are made to do, as a reflection of their human builders' belief that all mutants are evil monsters to be purged from the planet for the good of humanity. They --- or more accurately, their builders --- make no distinction between groups like the X-Men that fight for peace between mutants and humans by protecting human society from evil mutants as much as they protect mutants from bigoted humans and groups like the Brotherhood or the Acolytes that want to at best subjugate and at worst eliminate humanity. That's bigotry in a nutshell, writing off everyone in a particular group as innately, inherently, and irredeemably evil because a relatively few members of that group act out violently or exhibit evil tendencies, or in shorter words, "I was attacked by a mutant, so all mutants must pay for what that one mutant did, because they're all the same!"