Iceman #3 (spoilers/discussion)

[NewMutant]

the way he talks is very forced. As you said some gay men talk like that, but no one talks like that BECAUSE they come out...they just talk like that period. You don't just start to develop an affectation, or infliction in the manner in which you speak. It's part of your personality it's part of who you are.

People want him to be a gay icon, but let's face it he's probably more like Will Truman than Jack McFarland.

Will Truman isn't a gay icon? Those are only two options of gay men?

[Confuzzled]

the way he talks is very forced. As you said some gay men talk like that, but no one talks like that BECAUSE they come out...they just talk like that period. You don't just start to develop an affectation, or infliction in the manner in which you speak. It's part of your personality it's part of who you are.

People want him to be a gay icon, but let's face it he's probably more like Will Truman than Jack McFarland.

Me trying to find something accurate in this post:

[WhiteQueenEmmaFrost]

Will Truman isn't a gay icon? Those are only two options of gay men?

The way Sina tries to make Bobby talk he sounds like Jack when his character is more like Will's. Jack is more flamboyant...neither Bobby or Will are flamboyant.

Sina's trying to make him one type when he's completely another.

I was giving (albeit a quick) example/response.

Me trying to find something accurate in this post:

[Triniking1234]

At least Sina writes Bobby better Rosenberg but part of that is me being mad he had Bobby low-key roast Chamber and Jean.

[Havok83]

At least Sina writes Bobby better Rosenberg but part of that is me being mad he had Bobby low-key roast Chamber and Jean.

I had no issues with Rosenberg's Bobby. Sina's Bobby is horrible. He writes a great Iceman, but not Bobby

[TheCape]

I check this because it has a Peter/MJ moment and it was...ok. Fairly standard plot (superheroes date got interrupted!!!!), but nothing that really stand up for mw, i feel that you enjoyment of this is going to come from how much love you have for The Amazing Friends show, wicth i'm personally neutral. Bobby love interest is nothing to write home about either.

What i did like is the fact that Peter was the one woth the sucessfull date on this lol and of course this phrase

"In spite of everything, I found the one lady in all five boroughs whose life seems to fit with mine" .

Always nice to have that.

Otherwise, this is pretty unremarkable.

[WhiteQueenEmmaFrost]

I had no issues with Rosenberg's Bobby. Sina's Bobby is horrible. He writes a great Iceman, but not Bobby

You and I are exactly on the same page.

[Fokken]

Just some overall musings of my own, to add gas to the flame I guess.

I enjoyed volume 1 of Iceman.
Volume 2 is only 3 issues in, but I've yet to fully find (re-find?) my stride here. I found his team up with Bishop charming -- but the Morlock plot didn't grab me. The Emma Frost issue was very much an Emma Frost issue-- that didn't feel like Bobby was necessary for. And the most recent issue was fun, but in a way that leaned more heavily on the supporting cast than Bobby himself. Volume 1 felt more Bobby focused, despite cameos and guest appearances, whereas this volume (again, I know, its only 3 issues in but..) is more about guest stars, imho.

As for Bobby's shift(?) in language/affectation as a gay man: Its real. I've seen it. Hell, I've been it. For some this feels jarring and inauthentic. And that's okay. Everyone has their own unique perspective and everyone has their own comfort scale with how gay representation is executed. My best friend was raised in a very conservative household (Dad is a religious authority -- pastor -- of his community) and when he and I met at age 24, he was vehemently opposed to wearing bright colors, appreciation of drag queens, using words like "Gurl" or "queen" and was deeply uncomfortable about discussing his romantic and/or sex life. At 36, he is obsessed with RuPaul's drag race, routinely gender-bends for Halloween, calls me "Gurl" and revels in regaling me with his sexploits or the lack thereof. My former roommate came out when we were 21 and he couldn't even stomach dancing WITH someone at a club. 2 months later he was signing up for Amateaur drag night. Mileage will vary and of course this doesn't apply to everyone because everyone has their own path and we as gay men are not all destined to embrace make up or glitter or Yass Queen, but it happens.

And its happening for Bobby. Whether he's trying it on for size, or whether this is who he's become (ing)? TBD. But its who he is right now.
Some can relate. Some can't. And Bobby HAS been out for a significant amount of time now -- sliding time scale not withstanding. Bendis's run ended, we got a hefty time jump into Extraordinary X-Men, then we had Civil War II(?), then we had Inhumans vs X-Men, and his first volume and all the subsequent Gold (blech!) and the return of Jean and, well that's a lot of time. Just sayin'.

MY biggest gripe with volume 2 though is that I am unimpressed with the art. I will not say its bad -- but its not what I would prefer.

At least Sina writes Bobby better Rosenberg but part of that is me being mad he had Bobby low-key roast Chamber and Jean.

I'm just in love with your avatar selection. Its really the perfect expression, applicable to any posting. ha ha.

[WhiteQueenEmmaFrost]

Just some overall musings of my own, to add gas to the flame I guess.

I enjoyed volume 1 of Iceman.
Volume 2 is only 3 issues in, but I've yet to fully find (re-find?) my stride here. I found his team up with Bishop charming -- but the Morlock plot didn't grab me. The Emma Frost issue was very much an Emma Frost issue-- that didn't feel like Bobby was necessary for. And the most recent issue was fun, but in a way that leaned more heavily on the supporting cast than Bobby himself. Volume 1 felt more Bobby focused, despite cameos and guest appearances, whereas this volume (again, I know, its only 3 issues in but..) is more about guest stars, imho.

As for Bobby's shift(?) in language/affectation as a gay man: Its real. I've seen it. Hell, I've been it. For some this feels jarring and inauthentic. And that's okay. Everyone has their own unique perspective and everyone has their own comfort scale with how gay representation is executed. My best friend was raised in a very conservative household (Dad is a religious authority -- pastor -- of his community) and when he and I met at age 24, he was vehemently opposed to wearing bright colors, appreciation of drag queens, using words like "Gurl" or "queen" and was deeply uncomfortable about discussing his romantic and/or sex life. At 36, he is obsessed with RuPaul's drag race, routinely gender-bends for Halloween, calls me "Gurl" and revels in regaling me with his sexploits or the lack thereof. My former roommate came out when we were 21 and he couldn't even stomach dancing WITH someone at a club. 2 months later he was signing up for Amateaur drag night. Mileage will vary and of course this doesn't apply to everyone because everyone has their own path and we as gay men are not all destined to embrace make up or glitter or Yass Queen, but it happens.

And its happening for Bobby. Whether he's trying it on for size, or whether this is who he's become (ing)? TBD. But its who he is right now.
Some can relate. Some can't. And Bobby HAS been out for a significant amount of time now -- sliding time scale not withstanding. Bendis's run ended, we got a hefty time jump into Extraordinary X-Men, then we had Civil War II(?), then we had Inhumans vs X-Men, and his first volume and all the subsequent Gold (blech!) and the return of Jean and, well that's a lot of time. Just sayin'.

If you look at the bigger picture it doesn't work.

Sina can get away with this dialogue because he's a gay man....this will. not. work. if another author tries to do it as well and the thing we as fans want is consistency. If this is the baseline for how he speaks/jokes/talks and this is his voice not everyone is going to understand it or deal with it respectfully.

I don't want to see Bobby become some camp caricature of a gay superhero because a straight author is trying to copy the speech patterns Sina established.

[Fokken]

If you look at the bigger picture it doesn't work.

Sina can get away with this dialogue because he's a gay man....this will. not. work. if another author tries to do it as well and the thing we as fans want is consistency. If this is the baseline for how he speaks/jokes/talks and this is his voice not everyone is going to understand it or deal with it respectfully.

I don't want to see Bobby become some camp caricature of a gay superhero because a straight author is trying to copy the speech patterns Sina established.

Its inevitably bound to happen at some point. No character is safe from being written poorly. <shrug>

I understand and empathize, I DO, but the concern about voice-accuracy is something that's applicable to ANY character with a distinct voice/personality under an author that doesn't get it.

Laura Kinney. Rogue. Cyclops. Emma Frost. Storm. This is a regular hazard of being a fictional character that is made accessible to an increasingly diverse array of authors of varying talent/skill.

[NewMutant]

Just some overall musings of my own, to add gas to the flame I guess.

I enjoyed volume 1 of Iceman.
Volume 2 is only 3 issues in, but I've yet to fully find (re-find?) my stride here. I found his team up with Bishop charming -- but the Morlock plot didn't grab me. The Emma Frost issue was very much an Emma Frost issue-- that didn't feel like Bobby was necessary for. And the most recent issue was fun, but in a way that leaned more heavily on the supporting cast than Bobby himself. Volume 1 felt more Bobby focused, despite cameos and guest appearances, whereas this volume (again, I know, its only 3 issues in but..) is more about guest stars, imho.

As for Bobby's shift(?) in language/affectation as a gay man: Its real. I've seen it. Hell, I've been it. For some this feels jarring and inauthentic. And that's okay. Everyone has their own unique perspective and everyone has their own comfort scale with how gay representation is executed. My best friend was raised in a very conservative household (Dad is a religious authority -- pastor -- of his community) and when he and I met at age 24, he was vehemently opposed to wearing bright colors, appreciation of drag queens, using words like "Gurl" or "queen" and was deeply uncomfortable about discussing his romantic and/or sex life. At 36, he is obsessed with RuPaul's drag race, routinely gender-bends for Halloween, calls me "Gurl" and revels in regaling me with his sexploits or the lack thereof. My former roommate came out when we were 21 and he couldn't even stomach dancing WITH someone at a club. 2 months later he was signing up for Amateaur drag night. Mileage will vary and of course this doesn't apply to everyone because everyone has their own path and we as gay men are not all destined to embrace make up or glitter or Yass Queen, but it happens.

And its happening for Bobby. Whether he's trying it on for size, or whether this is who he's become (ing)? TBD. But its who he is right now.
Some can relate. Some can't. And Bobby HAS been out for a significant amount of time now -- sliding time scale not withstanding. Bendis's run ended, we got a hefty time jump into Extraordinary X-Men, then we had Civil War II(?), then we had Inhumans vs X-Men, and his first volume and all the subsequent Gold (blech!) and the return of Jean and, well that's a lot of time. Just sayin'.

MY biggest gripe with volume 2 though is that I am unimpressed with the art. I will not say its bad -- but its not what I would prefer.




I'm just in love with your avatar selection. Its really the perfect expression, applicable to any posting. ha ha.

I'm torn. I want an Iceman series that is up there with Fraction's Iron Man, Brubaker's Captain America, Hama or Aaron's Wolverine. However, Iceman is a different type of character and he certainly isn't going to get that lengthy of a run.

Iceman's solo needed to accomplish a few things. What was missing from the first volume was interactions of past characters Iceman has a history with. We need to see how these relationships are unchanged after he came out and remind us why we love Iceman to begin with. The second volume is doing a better job of that, but since it is a mini feels too condensed and a bit rushed.

Iceman has a weird place in X-Men history. He is an original X-Man but aside from that team he hasn't really been on a flagship book, he was barely ever used during Claremont's run. At the same time his power set made him popular outside the source material appearing in Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends, the movies, cartoons, and countless video games.

Since the Morrison era, Iceman has consistently been with X-Men and slowly building to a more integral role in the series. Wolverine and the X-Men was a big step for him, he was basically second in command in Extraordinary, and hopefully Uncanny will put the spotlight on him again.

I don't think Iceman has been written out of character at all, I think his role as prominent gay character will only help in at Marvel, and I think this series is something I would have benefited from as kid. Everything else is nitpicking. Yes, I can think of ways it could have been better. Sure I would have written things differently. But I'm not the writer, I'm realistic about how Marvel will treat this, and I think the book accomplishes a lot.

[Fokken]

... and I think this series is something I would have benefited from as kid.

Any time I read commentary like this, it warms my heart and fills me wit hope. If it matters to you now, and would have mattered to you then, then it DEFINITELY matters to someone who needs it and that's so wonderful to think about.

[NewMutant]

Any time I read commentary like this, it warms my heart and fills me wit hope. If it matters to you now, and would have mattered to you then, then it DEFINITELY matters to someone who needs it and that's so wonderful to think about.

There was no Wiccan and Hulking for me growing up. (Characters that are still underused). There was Midnighter, who wasn't even a DC character at the time, and I wasn't a huge fan of his then as I am now. Northstar was on my radar but had never been in anything noteworthy and his sexual orientation was also a footnote. Iceman being gay certainly had a few rumors but it was usually used in a butt of the joke sort of way. I know this series matter which is why I support it. Iceman coming out has brought a freshness to the X-Men that I haven't felt in awhile. I wish the haters would understand the positive importance of having the identity politics having a Silver Age, Stan Lee created, very visible gay characters around.

[Fokken]

There was no Wiccan and Hulking for me growing up. (Characters that are still underused). There was Midnighter, who wasn't even a DC character at the time, and I wasn't a huge fan of his then as I am now. Northstar was on my radar but had never been in anything noteworthy and his sexual orientation was also a footnote. Iceman being gay certainly had a few rumors but it was usually used in a butt of the joke sort of way. I know this series matter which is why I support it. Iceman coming out has brought a freshness to the X-Men that I haven't felt in awhile. I wish the haters would understand the positive importance of having the identity politics having a Silver Age, Stan Lee created, very visible gay characters around.

I love how you listed multiple examples, essentially citing how each of these gay characters are very different in how they are portrayed and what they offer in terms of relatability to any given gay reader. That's important. Billy and Teddy resonate fiercely with me, of course, and I had the same response to Northstar in my youth. I was excited when I learned he was a gay character, but couldn't connect with him at the time. So too was true of Midnighter and Apollo (whose recent revival sold me on both, in a big way). Its remarkable how we digest certain material and what it means to us at any given juncture of our lives. The spectrum is VAST and there as with ANY character, we as readers can have vastly different interpretations/perceptions of those characters.

[Vegan Daddy]

Stop fem-bashing poor Bobby. Let him be his little gay self.