What kind of relationship should the X-Men and the Avengers have?

[Hizashi]

We already have enough continuity questions regarding "When does this book happen vs. when this book happened" (most recent example: Death of Inhumans vs. Fantastic Four), I think expecting all (or even most) major events from books to be referenced in other books would just add to the confusion*...so much so, it's just easier to assume that reason the Avengers didn't help the Fantastic Four is because the Avengers were just busy, not that they're apathetic.

But some people like to assume the worst. /shrug

I haven't argued that readers can't make meta-sense of "the Avengers aren't here because they're also superheroes and can't be everywhere at once", I'm not sure why you keep assuming the worst of my point-of-view or argument. I didn't say "all" or "even most" or that it needed to be constant and X-fans weren't the ones who raised the question of where the Avengers are when the X-Men could use their help - it was Marvel. They chose to make a deal out of it, they chose to have the teams antagonize each other, and they chose to have the X-Men be mistreated in and out of the comics.

I might agree with some of the sentiments expressed by my more ardent peers, but that doesn't mean I agree with every point made; I don't think that the Avengers are apathetic, but I'm wary of interactions between most teams because Marvel hasn't instilled in me confidence that they can juggle those narratives and characters successfully. The most recent example is in X-Men Red, where the Avengers arrive to lend Jean and her team a hand against Cassandra, and you know what? I disliked plenty of other things in the issue, but their inclusion there made narrative sense - it wasn't a masterpiece move, but it was good use of the characters without interrupting any major narratives.

I agree, it would be cool if continuity was super-tight, and Marvel could coordinate every major event to the Nth degree...but I doubt it's fun, or even possible. Knowing exactly what the X-Men were doing while Kang was conquering the world, and why the X-Men didn't help would've been awesome.

The idea seems better/easier than the reality though, IMO.

They don't need to coordinate to the Nth degree, I hope you don't believe that I think that, but any improvement in Marvel's editorial oversight would be refreshing.

*Not to mention stifling creativity a bit. "You...Avengers writer...you HAVE to reference this X-Event in this specific issue, or the fans will riot!"

That's a bit of an exaggeration, don't you think? Maybe it's not too much to ask that editors work together so there isn't minor contradictions across books? Maybe it's not too much to ask that Marvel not ignore character and team histories because it's convenient for them? That's kind of editorial's job.

[Star_Jammer]

That's a bit of an exaggeration, don't you think? Maybe it's not too much to ask that editors work together so there isn't minor contradictions across books? Maybe it's not too much to ask that Marvel not ignore character and team histories because it's convenient for them? That's kind of editorial's job.

The thing is, the events of books don’t always line up correctly. What is happening in an X-book doesn’t always line up, timeline-wise, with what’s happening in other books (look at what’s happening in X-Men Red vs. Avengers now). By having references in other books, you’re limiting how the writers can use the timeline. And by having the X-Books reference why other teams can’t help them (even with a generic line that doesn’t specifically reference anything that happened in an Avengers book), you put the onus on the X-Writers to explain this...and at that point, it’s silly to blame the Avengers for something the X-Writers aren’t doing.

I’m just saying...it’s my opinion that it’s easier, as a fan, to just assume the Avengers are busy when they don’t show up to help the X-Men (and I’ll reiterate that I extend this to courtesy to the X-Men when they don’t help the Avengers). Not to mention just a little bit less negative all-around.

[Hizashi]

The thing is, the events of books don’t always line up correctly. What is happening in an X-book doesn’t always line up, timeline-wise, with what’s happening in other books (look at what’s happening in X-Men Red vs. Avengers now). By having references in other books, you’re limiting how the writers can use the timeline. And by having the X-Books reference why other teams can’t help them (even with a generic line that doesn’t specifically reference anything that happened in an Avengers book), you put the onus on the X-Writers to explain this...and at that point, it’s silly to blame the Avengers for something the X-Writers aren’t doing.

I’m just saying...it’s my opinion that it’s easier, as a fan, to just assume the Avengers are busy when they don’t show up to help the X-Men. Not to mention just a little bit less negative all-around.

Yeah, good point, but why can't both editorial teams seize an opportunity where their books do happen to lineup pretty neatly to reference each other? Or maybe, the same way that you insist fans can just assume that the Avengers are busy when they don't show up to help the X-Men (and I don't disagree), fans can just say "the suit that Cap is wearing here was used a few issues ago in Avengers, so that must be where this book lines up". Would the onus be on the X-writers? Maybe, but that's a smaller consideration for me; I just want Marvel as a whole to do better. If that includes the Avengers writers and X-writers and any number of people, so be it.

I've asked this elsewhere, maybe you know, but She-Hulk's appearance in Red doesn't line up with her appearance in Avengers as far as I recall; is that a mistake by editorial or has it changed? I haven't picked up the Avengers book so I'm not sure.

Did you not respond to the rest of my post because you agree with me on those points?

[Keyotheseasons]

Yeah, good point, but why can't both editorial teams seize an opportunity where their books do happen to lineup pretty neatly to reference each other? Or maybe, the same way that you insist fans can just assume that the Avengers are busy when they don't show up to help the X-Men (and I don't disagree), fans can just say "the suit that Cap is wearing here was used a few issues ago in Avengers, so that must be where this book lines up". Would the onus be on the X-writers? Maybe, but that's a smaller consideration for me; I just want Marvel as a whole to do better. If that includes the Avengers writers and X-writers and any number of people, so be it.

I've asked this elsewhere, maybe you know, but She-Hulk's appearance in Red doesn't line up with her appearance in Avengers as far as I recall; is that a mistake by editorial or has it changed? I haven't picked up the Avengers book so I'm not sure.

Did you not respond to the rest of my post because you agree with me on those points?

Honestly, I am not sure if that is solely on Marvel editorial. Often times, I am sure that the writer is simply interested in telling their story and doesn't care about continuity or timelines. It would be the editors job to make sure his doesn't happen, but seeing as how comics are mostly on a monthly/tight schedule, they can't afford to constantly delay books to argue these things with the creators.

[Star_Jammer]

Did you not respond to the rest of my post because you agree with me on those points?

No, not necessarily. I was in bed at that point, and multi-quoting on my old-ass iPad is annoying.

I don't totally disagree, though.

Still you're suggesting that an Editor goes to a writer and says "You HAVE to include a reference to this_event_01! We might keep our continuity tight, tight, tight!", instead of a writer choosing to do that on their own.

And yes, the onus would be on the X-Writer; they actually have to script Captain America showing up...and the artist has to draw it.

And it's fine to want it; I just think it's a case where reality wouldn't line up well with expectations.

Some writers do well in this regard. Kurt Busiek had a story when he was writing the Avengers, where Grim Reaper and a few other dead Avengers attacked the Avengers parade. Busiek showed other heroes (even the X-Men, IIRC) reacting to the event. Thing is...I'm pretty sure this happened because he wanted to show it. But he also showed that in his own book, and other books weren't tied down to the event in Avengers. Busiek took the responsibility to show why other heroes could or could not help.