What kind of relationship should the X-Men and the Avengers have?

[ButterRum]

So you want the Avengers involved in every major X-Men story?

Err ... no. Emma said it best (she doesn't want the Avengers involved. They don't care. ).

And Emma was written well during those years ... it was when Astonishing and the New x-Men series were out. Doesn't really have anything to do with the Avengers.

[Star_Jammer]

Err ... no. Emma said it best (she doesn't want the Avengers involved. They don't care. ).

And Emma was written well during those years ... it was when Astonishing and the New x-Men series were out. Doesn't really have anything to do with the Avengers.

The Avenger's aren't involved not because they don't care, but because nobody wants the X-Men narrative to over-take the Avengers (or vice-versa). That's the whole "you have to look outside the comics" point a few of us have been making. The Avengers have kept mutants on their team fairly consistently since the roster's second incarnation, and has even stood against rallies against mutants being on their team. They also have been involved in trying to help handle other mutant affairs, but we forget these when it's convenient to do so.

And throwing it in someone's face that they didn't help you when you didn't want them involved (per your example) isn't good characterization; it's called being a hypocrite.

Unless one thinks being a hypocrite is good characterization...in which case.../shrug. It is Emma, afterall.

[gurkle]

The problem is that the X-Men are so similar to the Avengers - a super-powered team living in a mansion and flying in futuristic aircraft to fight globetrotting menaces, some of which they created themselves - that bringing both of them into a story is redundant.

The first issue of the All-New, All-Different X-Men ongoing, where they fought Nefaria, has Beast get in touch with the X-Men and tell them that the Avengers have been called in on a job but they can't handle it at the moment, so could the X-Men do it? You can see why this was rarely done afterwards. Explaining that the Avengers can't handle this job just makes the X-Men look like sloppy seconds.

The unofficial rule after that seemed to be that "where are the Avengers?" would not be addressed unless it was so huge an event that the Avengers should have noticed it, or unless the villain was someone who usually fought the Avengers; so when Arkon showed up in Claremont's first annual, he went to Avengers mansion looking for Thor, couldn't find him, and decided to kidnap Storm instead because she was the other prominent "weather powers" person in New York.

I think Wolverine in the original Secret Wars may have been the first person to bring up the idea that the other Marvel superheroes actively ignored the plight of mutants. I'm pretty sure it had never been brought up in X-Men up to that point. But Jim Shooter mandated that after "Dazzler: the Movie," every comic had to mention that anti-mutant hysteria was on the rise (which led to plots like the Scarlet Witch and Vision's house being burned down in Avengers).



Also there just did seem to be some kind of line between the X-books and the other superhero books, maybe just because Claremont, Simonson, Nocenti, Harras and a few others rebuilt the X-Men mythos almost from the ground up, while the other books were much more rooted in the '60s comics. Even when Bob Harras was Avengers writer and X-Men editor at the same time, he rarely had any cross-pollination aside from allowing the Avengers to use the Shi'ar (because he didn't think they belonged in the X-books). and one very short crossover. They just became two different worlds, the mutant books and the superhero books, almost by accident.

There was a brief moment around 1996-7 that Marvel tried to cross-pollinate the X-books with the rest of the Marvel universe a bit more, with the Avengers and Fantastic Four being brought into Onslaught, Nate Grey becoming friends with Spider-Man and Shang-Chi guest starring in X-Men. But it didn't last.

[comicscollector]

The X-Men and the Avengers should be allies.With the Beast being such a iconic Avenger as he was in the past,i think that should help those two team to be allies.

[Killerbee911]

I think people are just asking for better oversight by editors I know it is hard with all books and plot points but something major happens with X-men or Avengers you need to put a logical reason why they aren't around. I will repeat I think it is fine for the Avengers and X-men to have common goals and work together but not get along.Also I think we have the perfect way to cover things that happens in both Avengers and Xmen books which is the Unity Squad.

[Striderblack01]

The Avenger's aren't involved not because they don't care, but because nobody wants the X-Men narrative to over-take the Avengers (or vice-versa). That's the whole "you have to look outside the comics" point a few of us have been making. The Avengers have kept mutants on their team fairly consistently since the roster's second incarnation, and has even stood against rallies against mutants being on their team. They also have been involved in trying to help handle other mutant affairs, but we forget these when it's convenient to do so.

And throwing it in someone's face that they didn't help you when you didn't want them involved (per your example) isn't good characterization; it's called being a hypocrite.

Unless one thinks being a hypocrite is good characterization...in which case.../shrug. It is Emma, afterall.

I love that we're pretending like there's no middle ground.

It's either they're never there or a complete takeover.
The Avengers being there for the really big stories, the way they usually operate, just isn't a possibility.
The Avengers advocating for equality just isn't a possibility.
The Avengers apologizing or taking responsibility for their past actions just isn't a possibility.

I also love that some people are like "you can't change the past".
Like that's not a super convenient thing to say when one party has been completely aggrieved.

[Hulkout42]

I think people are just asking for better oversight by editors I know it is hard with all books and plot points but something major happens with X-men or Avengers you need to put a logical reason why they aren't around. I will repeat I think it is fine for the Avengers and X-men to have common goals and work together but not get along.Also I think we have the perfect way to cover things that happens in both Avengers and Xmen books which is the Unity Squad.

Good luck with that, Marvel will never give us that with the way things are right now, i mean the only person who seems to acknowledge the things that happened in the past and them moves forward is Spencer in his Spider-man run while the others just make up new stuff without taking into account past actions...then again i could be wrong and no one does this. Marvel has terrible editing and too many books, i mean maybe the removal of so many X-books (Red, Blue, Gold, etc) is a something that will benefit it.

[Hulkout42]

I love that we're pretending like there's no middle ground.

It's either they're never there or a complete takeover.
The Avengers being there for the really big stories, the way they usually operate, just isn't a possibility.
The Avengers advocating for equality just isn't a possibility.
The Avengers apologizing or taking responsibility for their past actions just isn't a possibility.

I also love that some people are like "you can't change the past".
Like that's not a super convenient thing to say when one party has been completely aggrieved.

How do you feel about the fact no one here is willing to even consider the possibility that the X-men are just as flawed as the Avengers? And i mean that seriously as i am curious.

[CuteClops]

How do you feel about the fact no one here is willing to even consider the possibility that the X-men are just as flawed as the Avengers? And i mean that seriously as i am curious.

I will repeat, my noble friend.
The question is not whether X-Men are also flawed. Yes they are, a lot.
BUT...
The point is that ONLY the X-Men are destroyed, devastated, humiliated, condemned for their failures.
Actually, not all X-Men, but just a couple. Scott Summers and Emma Frost.
So tell me, are the Avengers being punished for things they do? And they've made some terrible mistakes. I mean, we're talking about murder, fascism and genocide...

[Striderblack01]

How do you feel about the fact no one here is willing to even consider the possibility that the X-men are just as flawed as the Avengers? And i mean that seriously as i am curious.

I think that by leaving things vague, you're doing yourself a disservice.

Everyone here knows the X-men have made mistakes.
I don't think I've seen anybody claim that the X-men are perfect angels.
It's just that the Avengers' mistakes clearly eclipse anything the X-men have done.

If you truly believe that both teams are equal in terms of mistakes made and blame - then make your case.
Lay down some specifics and go for it.

Side note: Not to get too political, but there is a growing notion (in the US), that whenever there is any conflict, both sides share equal blame.
It tends to rear its head in conflicts involving race. And that notion is simply not true, and is often used as a way of minimizing/justifying/rationalizing/denying oppression by victim-blaming.
By avoiding victim-blaming and whataboutism, your case will be that much stronger.

[Star_Jammer]

I love that we're pretending like there's no middle ground.

It's either they're never there or a complete takeover.

Well that's cool then, because the Avengers have been involved with the X-Men's problems (even died from one of them), as well as general mutant affairs. It's the angsty X-Fans that are saying the Avengers have never helped out.

"IT'S NOT ENOUGH!"

Go preach to them.

[Hulkout42]

I think that by leaving things vague, you're doing yourself a disservice.

Everyone here knows the X-men have made mistakes.
I don't think I've seen anybody claim that the X-men are perfect angels.
It's just that the Avengers' mistakes clearly eclipse anything the X-men have done.

If you truly believe that both teams are equal in terms of mistakes made and blame - then make your case.
Lay down some specifics and go for it.

Side note: Not to get too political, but there is a growing notion (in the US), that whenever there is any conflict, both sides share equal blame.
It tends to rear its head in conflicts involving race. And that notion is simply not true, and is often used as a way of minimizing/justifying/rationalizing/denying oppression by victim-blaming.
By avoiding victim-blaming and whataboutism, your case will be that much stronger.

Tried to make my case, got shut down hard. Not the first time not the last time and since i can't seem to learn despite this will continue to throw this out for no other reason then because i can.

Also your post about everyone knowing they are flawed doesn't seem to apply for the vast majority of the post that seem to have the recurring theme of "AvX Avenger are evil and cruel" & "Avengers = Government stooges" "They should have helped Genosha" and so on and so forth.

Both sides are to blame but i never said in equal manner as seems to be the case in this thread, i just think it should be to pointed out that yes the Avengers screwed up but they aren't the only ones. Maybe i'm coming off as pro Avengers when really i have not wanted anything to do with them since they cancelled Unity Squad and as far as X-men go i only picked X-men Red and even that is being taken away so really my options for both sides is dwindling as far as i can tell.

Then again this is mostly because it's all Marvel's fault because they thought it would be cute to have the teams either distant or be in conflict one another for no other reason that it would bring in money while ignoring how the fans would react to it. I mean for crying out loud they are superheroes! I get that it is a trope but wasn't it beaten to death with CW? Why did we need more after that i ask? We didn't need Schism, Axis, AvX or CW2 so why?

[Hizashi]

Well that's cool then, because the Avengers have been involved with the X-Men's problems (even died from one of them), as well as general mutant affairs. It's the angsty X-Fans that are saying the Avengers have never helped out.

"IT'S NOT ENOUGH!"

Go preach to them.

I don’t need Avengers in every X-book, and I’m more than willing to accept a short excuse/explanation that they’re busy with a separate world-ending threat; what I want is for an end to hero vs hero events, an end to Avengers and their narrative being pushed at the expense of the X-Men and their narrative, and for an end to the vilification of undeserving individuals. And you know what? That’s mutual, I wouldn’t want that for any variation of Marvel’s teams, I just happen to be more of an X-fan than an Avengers-fan (at least when it comes to the comics).

[Star_Jammer]

I don’t need Avengers in every X-book, and I’m more than willing to accept a short excuse/explanation that they’re busy with a separate world-ending threat; what I want is for an end to hero vs hero events, an end to Avengers and their narrative being pushed at the expense of the X-Men and their narrative, and for an end to the vilification of undeserving individuals. And you know what? That’s mutual, I wouldn’t want that for any variation of Marvel’s teams, I just happen to be more of an X-fan than an Avengers-fan (at least when it comes to the comics).

So for every big X-Men event, you want the writer to say "Well, the Avengers are off taking care of Kang, who's taking over the world again"?

Like...for every big X-Men event?

How redundant.

And you realize that the onus for this would be on the X-Writers too, right?

But let's blame the Avengers...

It's comic books. Rational readers have to believe that the reason Superman isn't helping Aquaman out when San Diego sinks (it was San Diego, wasn't it?)...is because Superman is busy, not that he doesn't care. Otherwise you just drive yourself crazy with irrational hatred.

[Hizashi]

So for every big X-Men event, you want the writer to say "Well, the Avengers are off taking care of Kang, who's taking over the world again"?

Like...for every big X-Men event?

How redundant.

And you realize that the onus for this would be on the X-Writers too, right?

But let's blame the Avengers...

It's comic books. Rational readers have to believe that the reason Superman isn't helping Aquaman out when San Diego sinks (it was San Diego, wasn't it?)...is because Superman is busy, not that he doesn't care. Otherwise you just drive yourself crazy with irrational hatred.

Hey, I’m approaching this in good faith, friend; of course I don’t mean they should do it for every X-event, but a small reference every once in a while to reinforce it wouldn’t be a bad thing.

I also mentioned that I would like this to be reciprocal, so that the Avengers allude to the possibility of help from the X-Men occasionally.