What kind of relationship should the X-Men and the Avengers have?

[MaximoffTrash]

Okay, so maybe now you understand why we Cyclops fans will not forget AvX, EXM, ANAD X-Men, DoX, IvX and all that shit about Phoenix Five, Cyclops terrorist, HitlerClops and that stupid death.
Just think, what if it was Jean Grey?

You talk like Cyclops is the only one who got buried for editorial decisions. So you would rather lash out on other fans that got similar experience to get some satisfaction than admit Cyclops is not the one and only victim.

[Celestialbodies]

Okay, so maybe now you understand why we Cyclops fans will not forget AvX, EXM, ANAD X-Men, DoX, IvX and all that shit about Phoenix Five, Cyclops terrorist, HitlerClops and that stupid death.
Just think, what if it was Jean Grey?

But was Jean for like fourteen years, only instead of some decade long story that ended in her narratively focused death. She was shuffled off only to appear as angst for Cyke, and occasional barb from Emma, and spectre over the Xmen.

Oh, and editorial consistently stated that she deserved to die over a decades worth of stories ago and that it allowed Scott to be a better person. Fortunately, that was just the writers, editors, Chief!

You talk like Cyclops is the only one who got buried for editorial decisions. So you would rather lash out on other fans that got similar experience to get some satisfaction than admit Cyclops is not the one and only victim.

Numerous characters were underused, sidelined, killed, or wallpaper. Storm, Bishop, and Professor X, are some of that times more prominent examples.

[Cyke]

Emma Frost said it best:





Emma was written so well during these years.

It's a little weird how she gets written to be the X-Men's representative in big major events (like Infinity Wars currently, or Original Sin), but her reasons for being picked within the narrative have absolutely nothing to do with the issues she faced during those years, the issues that made her prominent enough to be that representative in the first place.

[Striderblack01]

Hm.

I think people might be missing just how ...impactful the uneven distribution of justice can be.

Imagine you and your family moving to a town where everyone immediately hates you.
Then, someone sets fire to your house and kills most of your family.
The fire and the murders go uninvestigated, and their deaths go unavenged.

Then, you find out it was a police officer who set the fire.
You go to bring them to justice, to face the consequences of their actions.
You're told to go home - that they take care of their own.
You leave. They never face consequences.

You move to a new house.
The townfolk continue to attack you, killing more loved ones - the police do nothing.
All of a sudden, there's an emergency and they need one of your family members.
Rather than talking to you about it, the entire police force surrounds your house.
They start making demands. You defend yourself, your house, and your family.
They take your family member anyway.

Later, one of your family members is arrested after being involved in an altercation.
Rightfully doubting the ability of the town to give them a fair trail, they run.
The police now use every resource to hunt them down to the ends of the earth.

The Avengers are billed as Earth's Mightiest Heroes.
They are supposed to be the top, the zenith of super heroes. They are government sanctioned, they have untold resources, access, and approval. All of Earth is under their protection.
Yet time after time, they either fail to or refuse to extend that protection to mutants. And, in doing so, actively contribute to their persecution.
That's not even counting the times they've taken direct actions against mutants, for which they refuse to take responsibility.

And we're supposed to just forget about this? To look the other way?
Just because Marvel can't stop peddling bad VS. events?

No, thanks.

[WallStreeter]

Hm.

I think people might be missing just how ...impactful the uneven distribution of justice can be.

Imagine you and your family moving to a town where everyone immediately hates you.
Then, someone sets fire to your house and kills most of your family.
The fire and the murders go uninvestigated, and their deaths go unavenged.

Then, you find out it was a police officer who set the fire.
You go to bring them to justice, to face the consequences of their actions.
You're told to go home - that they take care of their own.
You leave. They never face consequences.

You move to a new house.
The townfolk continue to attack you, killing more loved ones - the police do nothing.
All of a sudden, there's an emergency and they need one of your family members.
Rather than talking to you about it, the entire police force surrounds your house.
They start making demands. You defend yourself, your house, and your family.
They take your family member anyway.

Later, one of your family members is arrested after being involved in an altercation.
Rightfully doubting the ability of the town to give them a fair trail, they run.
The police now use every resource to hunt them down to the ends of the earth.

The Avengers are billed as Earth's Mightiest Heroes.
They are supposed to be the top, the zenith of super heroes. They are government sanctioned, they have untold resources, access, and approval. All of Earth is under their protection.
Yet time after time, they either fail to or refuse to extend that protection to mutants. And, in doing so, actively contribute to their persecution.
That's not even counting the times they've taken direct actions against mutants, for which they refuse to take responsibility.

And we're supposed to just forget about this? To look the other way?
Just because Marvel can't stop peddling bad VS. events?

No, thanks.

No one can change the past, but they certainly can change the PRESENT. When Cassandra Nova made a fake image of Jean that she wanted to use to completely turn humanity against mutants, when Jean called the Avengers they came to her AID.

Definitely the Avengers have made horrible mistakes. But still, they came to Jean's aid and they'll clear Jean's name.

[WallStreeter]

If it makes anyone here feel better, apparently the big 700th-issue milestone celebration for the Avengers (technically Avengers #10 by Jason Aaron) will have them become Earth's most hated heroes. While the solicit indicates it might be over the Avengers' new chairperson being Black Panther (king of his own nation) and thus "not answering to American authorities" anymore, it's hard not to feel like it's the chickens coming home to roost for all the times the Avengers effectively stood by and did nothing while mutants were being persecuted by those same "American authorities." Wonder if that'll be their "come to Jesus" moment.

That's a very interesting story to do, and one that fits the current political atmosphere. A group that perhaps thought they were immune to the hate the X-Men got finds themselves on the receiving end of that. It's kind of like today, if one minority group stands by and does nothing while another minority is attack, sooner or later that minority group will find itself victimised as well by the mainstream.

[Star_Jammer]

Emma Frost said it best:

Emma was written so well during these years.

So you want the Avengers involved in every major X-Men story?

[nightw1ng]

I find it kind of weird how so many people are angry at the Avengers for not helping solve mutantkind's problems, since from a story standpoint, that could never happen. It's honestly too much to expect that kind of involvement because then it would completely change the X-books. The X-Men's whole premise doesn't even completely make sense in a world where superheroes are generally idolized to begin with. If you don't utilize your suspension of disbelief, you'll just always be upset at something that will never change.

[CuteClops]

You talk like Cyclops is the only one who got buried for editorial decisions. So you would rather lash out on other fans that got similar experience to get some satisfaction than admit Cyclops is not the one and only victim.

1 - I didn't attack other fans, he attacked Cyclops fans. I just told him to put himself in our place.
2 - Give me another character, besides Cyclops and Emma, who were thrown under the bus, again and again.
Wanda, for example, even after all the awful things she did, what happened to her? Was she treated as a genocidal monster, a terrorist, a villain? Was she arrested? Was she hated by the Avengers? Is she a heroine or a villain, according to editorial? How does MU see Wanda? She's a villain or heroine? They called her "Hitler"?

But was Jean for like fourteen years, only instead of some decade long story that ended in her narratively focused death. She was shuffled off only to appear as angst for Cyke, and occasional barb from Emma, and spectre over the Xmen.

Oh, and editorial consistently stated that she deserved to die over a decades worth of stories ago and that it allowed Scott to be a better person. Fortunately, that was just the writers, editors, Chief!


Numerous characters were underused, sidelined, killed, or wallpaper. Storm, Bishop, and Professor X, are some of that times more prominent examples.

And I repeat: Jean fans can keep talking about this every day, every day, every day, and Cyclops fans can't do the same about AvX, EXM, DoX, IvX? Why?

Why Cyclops' haters can keep talking about Maddie and Scott every day, since the 1980s, every day, every day, every day...
but should Cyclops fans be quiet? Why?

Tell me, what happened to Bishop, Xavier, and all those who have committed terrible atrocities in the Marvel Universe? Avengers, X-Men, Inhumans, FF? How were these "heroes" punished? Were they massacred by their "friends", for years? Were they treated like Hitler? Were they thrown into the mud by their "friends" themselves? No. They're not. They continue to be treated as heroes, loved and revered by all.

No character has been treated as Scott Summers. Except, Emma Frost.

And you talk about Jean dying to push Scott and Emma. But is not that what happened to Maddie? She had become a villain, and she died so Jean could return to the center of the stage.
Poor Maddie.

[CuteClops]

Hm.

I think people might be missing just how ...impactful the uneven distribution of justice can be.

Imagine you and your family moving to a town where everyone immediately hates you.
Then, someone sets fire to your house and kills most of your family.
The fire and the murders go uninvestigated, and their deaths go unavenged.

Then, you find out it was a police officer who set the fire.
You go to bring them to justice, to face the consequences of their actions.
You're told to go home - that they take care of their own.
You leave. They never face consequences.

You move to a new house.
The townfolk continue to attack you, killing more loved ones - the police do nothing.
All of a sudden, there's an emergency and they need one of your family members.
Rather than talking to you about it, the entire police force surrounds your house.
They start making demands. You defend yourself, your house, and your family.
They take your family member anyway.

Later, one of your family members is arrested after being involved in an altercation.
Rightfully doubting the ability of the town to give them a fair trail, they run.
The police now use every resource to hunt them down to the ends of the earth.

The Avengers are billed as Earth's Mightiest Heroes.
They are supposed to be the top, the zenith of super heroes. They are government sanctioned, they have untold resources, access, and approval. All of Earth is under their protection.
Yet time after time, they either fail to or refuse to extend that protection to mutants. And, in doing so, actively contribute to their persecution.
That's not even counting the times they've taken direct actions against mutants, for which they refuse to take responsibility.

And we're supposed to just forget about this? To look the other way?
Just because Marvel can't stop peddling bad VS. events?

No, thanks.

[CuteClops]

I find it kind of weird how so many people are angry at the Avengers for not helping solve mutantkind's problems, since from a story standpoint, that could never happen. It's honestly too much to expect that kind of involvement because then it would completely change the X-books. The X-Men's whole premise doesn't even completely make sense in a world where superheroes are generally idolized to begin with. If you don't utilize your suspension of disbelief, you'll just always be upset at something that will never change.

Well, I don't know about the others, I speak for myself... I don't want the Avengers to interfere with the X-Men stories.
And that's why I'll never agree with AvX. The Phoenix is the business of the X-Men.
The Avengers should never have intruded into X-Men world. IMO

[Grey]

I find it kind of weird how so many people are angry at the Avengers for not helping solve mutantkind's problems, since from a story standpoint, that could never happen. It's honestly too much to expect that kind of involvement because then it would completely change the X-books. The X-Men's whole premise doesn't even completely make sense in a world where superheroes are generally idolized to begin with. If you don't utilize your suspension of disbelief, you'll just always be upset at something that will never change.

I (respectfully) get frustrated when people say this: that the mutant hatred doesn’t make sense because other superheroes exist out there.

It. Isn’t. Just. About. The. Superpowers. This cannot be overstated.

It’s also about being born genetically different. They are “freaks”, many with non- normal appearances. “It’s not natural”. The same argument that happens with LGBT individual and other minorities. Many of the avengers get a pass because they are the “model” superhero. But a “physical freak” with powers is often seen very differently. This happens in the real world too, for example where someone who is very successful comes out as gay and is suddenly demonized by some of their previous supporters.

That being said, I do agree with you in a way in that, imo, the xmen would make a MUCH better narrative if there were no other superheroes in their universe. That’s one thing I’ve loved about the movies.

Regarding the avengers not helping out more, I think it ultimately comes down To panel real estate. sure the avengers should theoretically be more involve me when mutants are being persecuted but as you said, we have to suspend our disbelief in this case. There just isn’t enough panel space to have the avengers intervening every time. But does that honestly mean we think the avengers don’t care about the well-being if mutants? Doubtful.

[myownlittleusername]

Kurt Busiek already said everything that needs to be said on this subject.

https://busiek.com/site/2010/02/03/d...-batmans-cake/

In short, don't mess with the X-Men's cake. And vice versa for the Avengers.

[FIGHT]

Wanda, for example, even after all the awful things she did, what happened to her? Was she treated as a genocidal monster, a terrorist, a villain? Was she arrested? Was she hated by the Avengers? Is she a heroine or a villain, according to editorial? How does MU see Wanda? She's a villain or heroine? They called her "Hitler"?

And I repeat: Jean fans can keep talking about this every day, every day, every day, and Cyclops fans can't do the same about AvX, EXM, DoX, IvX? Why?

Tell me, what happened to Bishop, Xavier, and all those who have committed terrible atrocities in the Marvel Universe?

This is the heart of the problem. Big event stories, with characters acting dumb/out of character and absolutely no consistency. Not to mention everyone having selective memory. Look at the way Cyclops was treated compared to Bishop. Its bs. I like browsing this forum from time to time but I'm not really buying much comics now a days. Marvel is not even putting any effort into story telling. Hope this changes, doubt it will.

[Huntsman Spider]

Bout to get their hero wake-up call.

That's a very interesting story to do, and one that fits the current political atmosphere. A group that perhaps thought they were immune to the hate the X-Men got finds themselves on the receiving end of that. It's kind of like today, if one minority group stands by and does nothing while another minority is attack, sooner or later that minority group will find itself victimised as well by the mainstream.

It wouldn't even be the first time, though. Just look at the original Civil War a decade ago. For years, it was just mutants or those superheroes like Spider-Man who weren't public operators, who didn't reveal and avail themselves to government authorities, that were hated and feared by the masses. Then Stamford happened, and everybody with powers, mutant or not, got blamed for it and forced to register with the government or become outlaws and fugitives, just like the X-Men and mutants in general had been for most of their published existence. That should've been the moment the Avengers learned better, but as soon as they had a common foe to unite against (the Skrulls, then Norman Osborn), they forgot a lot of those hard lessons and went back to status quo, with the public more-or-less willing to accept that because the alternatives (conquered by the Skrulls or "protected" by a complete megalomaniac like Osborn) turned out to be even worse. I'm hoping that Avengers 700 will be a more positive turning point for the Avengers in terms of how they deal with the X-Men after being subjected to the same (or similar enough) persecution and criminalization by the authorities, but if the legacy of Civil War is anything to go by . . .